Saiga 12- Pretty sure its broke.

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

Hello.

I was having a special issue with my saiga 12, and i wanted to see if anybody might help me understand it better.

 

I've been shooting for a few years, but just got my saiga12 3 days ago.

 

I read about it online, heard from people I knew who have one, and the store itself, and they all said it would not cycle cheapo winchester or birdshot well.

 

I've got about 100 shells through it, when i noticed a "problem" or something of interest. This gun cycles anything. Literally anything, On any setting. On setting 1 (set aside for slugs), it cycles federal and winchester universal flawlessly.

 

One would think its a good thing, but it could be an omnious sign of defect. Is this normal? Could the gas system be too wide? Is it the puck location? Its screwed all the way on, falling just short of the 1 setting (wont go to 1), so i retracted it to 2 for cheapo loads, and 1 when i shot slugs and more cheapo through) Heres an idea:

 

Top (gas tube)

just short of 1

2 for cheapo (normal shooting)

1 for slugs

 

Do i have the puck on too tight or loose? Its as far in as it goes, on 2.

 

Should i be concerned?

Thanks

[Bvamp 604]

can you provide the first 4 digits of the serial number, the importer, and how many gas ports are in the barrel?

 

has the gun been converted?

 

it is not necessarily a defect.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Ben Vampatella

[vulcan16 971]

Get a TAC47 auto plug. It will help with an over gassed shotgun.

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

It's H094. 2 gas ports (i think that what the new ones are). Not converted, in the sense it is bone dry stock. Trigger has not been moved closer to mag point. I bought it new, over the counter from the local police shop.

Imported by Legion USA inc, located in hallandale FL.

[Bvamp 604]

Get a TAC47 auto plug. It will help with an over gassed shotgun.

 

It does sound overgassed, but by how much, is the question....

 

It's H094. 2 gas ports (i think that what the new ones are). Not converted, in the sense it is bone dry stock. Trigger has not been moved closer to mag point. I bought it new, over the counter from the local police shop.

Imported by Legion USA inc, located in hallandale FL.

 

 

you sure its only two ports? what barrel length is it? Do you have any chokes or muzzle attachments on it? You should check for a third gas port forward of the two that you can see, with a pin or whatever. you might not be able to see it.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Ben Vampatella

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

23". No chokes, its not fixed, there is threading to screw something on. You're right, i found a third gas port.

[jdtravers 637]

23". No chokes, its not fixed, there is threading to screw something on. You're right, i found a third gas port.

 

That will actually be a 24" barrel and all the 2009 24" guns I have converted/worked on only have two ports because of the longer barrel/dwell time and the ports are approximately .070 in diameter. If you truly have 3 ports, this will definitely make it more efficient.

 

Jack

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

I guess at the end of the day, this is a warranty issue. I only plan on shooting low power loads anyway, but i definitely don't want premature wear on the gun.

When i shoot target load, it feels as it should, it doesn't have a high kick. But i can cycle it flawlessly on setting 1. That can't be right.

[zenman223 460]

Sounds like its overgassed, Buy an aftermarket plug like the MD v plug or gunfxr plug and you can turn the gas down. It shouldnt cycle birdshot on setting one but its no big deal, just dont shoot a bunch of high brass through it until you get another plug to turn the gas down. Use the lowest setting possible to cycle the gun reliably to avoid too much stress on the carrier and trunnion.

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

Where would i look to see signs of wear? The bolt and bolt support? (just a guess) It doesn't make any unusual noises when fired. Thanks for the help, guys.

[Foxtail207 23]

Man, I'm glad I don't have a S12, it sounds too complicated to me. I'll stick to my 870 3" mag w/ extra full turkey choke, it'' shoot anything you poke in it.

 

I do like the S12 however.

[jdtravers 637]

I guess at the end of the day, this is a warranty issue. I only plan on shooting low power loads anyway, but i definitely don't want premature wear on the gun.

When i shoot target load, it feels as it should, it doesn't have a high kick. But i can cycle it flawlessly on setting 1. That can't be right.

More efficient is better, especially if you are only going to shoot low velocity target loads. What do you consider a low power load. What is the weight of the shot and the rated velocity?

I don't know if you are experience enough to recognize bolt/carrier slam, but personally I would rather be able to regulate the gas down, than have a gun that barely cycles. You can also put in a heavier recoil spring and tune the gun to the loads you want to shoot.

 

I found the 24" guns seemed to be built a little bit better than the 19". The actions were much smoother out of the box and they all ran. For a while that was all I was using to build the high end competition guns was the 24" gun and I would cut the barrel down to 21", shorten the gas system, etc., and they ran beautifully. Why is this, I don't know how the production line is set up. The only difference is the barrel, but the difference was day and night

[Paulyski 2,227]

Where would i look to see signs of wear? The bolt and bolt support? (just a guess) It doesn't make any unusual noises when fired. Thanks for the help, guys.

See if you can choke it down with an MD arms V-plug.

 

Innitially it'll just hit the rear trunnion too hard, maybe enlarge the holes that its rivets go through, but built up stresses aren't good for the female end of the carrier where the op-rod screws in.

That's the weakest point

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

Thanks. I'm gonna go talk to the store i bought it from. There's not a shred of warranty info on the box, thought the general rule is one year. Like i said, its like 4 days old, so it shouldnt have issues this early.

Maybe its the screw in part? I screwed it all the way in, so it just fell short of the 1, then locked it into place at 2, the first place it would fit. Would that be the issue? Should put it to where it will first lock on 2?

[jdtravers 637]

Thanks. I'm gonna go talk to the store i bought it from. There's not a shred of warranty info on the box, thought the general rule is one year. Like i said, its like 4 days old, so it shouldnt have issues this early.

Maybe its the screw in part? I screwed it all the way in, so it just fell short of the 1, then locked it into place at 2, the first place it would fit. Would that be the issue? Should put it to where it will first lock on 2?

No, that is just the way the threads are cut on the clean out plug, no big deal. It is the way the plug is contoured which regulates the gas on the settings. Screw it all the way in, then back it out to the setting you want.

 

Good luck!

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

Maybe its not that big of a problem. I could just put the gun in setting 1, and leave it there. I'm still gonna go talk to the shop about it. I guess, if it did come down to it, how much would it be to pay for a gunsmith to fix it (approximation)?

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

I guess at the end of the day, this is a warranty issue. I only plan on shooting low power loads anyway, but i definitely don't want premature wear on the gun.

When i shoot target load, it feels as it should, it doesn't have a high kick. But i can cycle it flawlessly on setting 1. That can't be right.

More efficient is better, especially if you are only going to shoot low velocity target loads. What do you consider a low power load. What is the weight of the shot and the rated velocity?

I don't know if you are experience enough to recognize bolt/carrier slam, but personally I would rather be able to regulate the gas down, than have a gun that barely cycles. You can also put in a heavier recoil spring and tune the gun to the loads you want to shoot.

 

I found the 24" guns seemed to be built a little bit better than the 19". The actions were much smoother out of the box and they all ran. For a while that was all I was using to build the high end competition guns was the 24" gun and I would cut the barrel down to 21", shorten the gas system, etc., and they ran beautifully. Why is this, I don't know how the production line is set up. The only difference is the barrel, but the difference was day and night

I understand more is better, but i dont want too much. I use winchester universal,

Specs:

1 1/8 oz , rated for 1200 FPS, 8 shot. This is low power, no?

Edited November 2, 2011 by IxLikexRussianxGuns

[joebanda1213 59]

I have an over gassed gun two I switched out my tight factory puck with a looser tapco. I know I know they are all made to the same size supposedly but my tapco drops in and out easily and my factory seals up tight in the cylinder and has to be knocked out. THis has helped me tame recoil and decrease trunion impact. I am waiting for funds to get an autoplug to see if that can help me dial in the cycling better or i guess it would be worse

 

PS my gun is a 19 inch 3 port all unobstructed converted and I have only managed to get it to jam twice with federal 100 pack with tapco puck 0 with factory. Gun has 2 thousand rounds or more 95% light loads

Edited November 2, 2011 by Jbanda1213

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

I have an over gassed gun two I switched out my tight factory puck with a looser tapco. I know I know they are all made to the same size supposedly but my tapco drops in and out easily and my factory seals up tight in the cylinder and has to be knocked out. THis has helped me tame recoil and decrease trunion impact. I am waiting for funds to get an autoplug to see if that can help me dial in the cycling better or i guess it would be worse

That seems to be the direction everybody thinks to go. My plug was stuck at first, but a simple shake and it fell right out, so i dont know if the plug is the issue. It kinda sucks to blow 30 bucks on a gun thats only a few days old. I've looked on a few other forums, and they think its a cheap fix, and Legion USA often just pays for reimbursement to have somebody do the work locally (with prior approval).

 

Okay, so the system is overgassed, and alot of you people think a new plug is the answer. Which brand?

 

I guess at the end of the day, this is a warranty issue. I only plan on shooting low power loads anyway, but i definitely don't want premature wear on the gun.

When i shoot target load, it feels as it should, it doesn't have a high kick. But i can cycle it flawlessly on setting 1. That can't be right.

More efficient is better, especially if you are only going to shoot low velocity target loads. What do you consider a low power load. What is the weight of the shot and the rated velocity?

I don't know if you are experience enough to recognize bolt/carrier slam, but personally I would rather be able to regulate the gas down, than have a gun that barely cycles. You can also put in a heavier recoil spring and tune the gun to the loads you want to shoot.

 

I found the 24" guns seemed to be built a little bit better than the 19". The actions were much smoother out of the box and they all ran. For a while that was all I was using to build the high end competition guns was the 24" gun and I would cut the barrel down to 21", shorten the gas system, etc., and they ran beautifully. Why is this, I don't know how the production line is set up. The only difference is the barrel, but the difference was day and night

I understand more is better, but i dont want too much. I use winchester universal,

Specs:

1 1/8 oz , rated for 1200 FPS, 8 shot. This is low power, no?

Yes, if that is the shell you are wanting to use, then you have nothing to worry about.

I really appreciate your help. What exactly should i look for just to be sure there isn't damage? (over time, what symptoms should i look for in the turrion?)

[joebanda1213 59]

I personally was going to get the auto plug it bleeds off extra gas which is what the problem is.

 

I am not sure if the vplug limits any more gas than the factory plug. I know its reall good at providing intervals between stock gas settings 1 and 2 and helps allowing additional gas through the system with settings better than 2,

 

Theres always a chance that once your saiga is converted the hammer might ride higher providing more resistence and slowing down the carrier. Some people notice a slight drop in reliability after converting.

 

 

Profesionals chime in.

[theorangeplanet 968]

I really appreciate your help. What exactly should i look for just to be sure there isn't damage? (over time, what symptoms should i look for in the turrion?)

 

You're thinking that this shotgun is really a lot more fragile than it actually is...

 

From what I've seen of what people have posted up, the only real damage from an overgassed gun seen commonly is the bolt carrier cracking/breaking where the op rod (gas piston) threads into it, or the op rod itself breaking. I've seen some pics of rear trunnions being chewed up some... but its conjecture as to exactly how badly that has damaged the gun seeing as it is still functional.

 

Personally, the only thing I would be hesitant shooting in a gun that was on the overgassed side would be 3 inch shells. I would be fine with shooting 2 3/4 high brass on setting 1 even if that setting was still cycling low brass.

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

I really appreciate your help. What exactly should i look for just to be sure there isn't damage? (over time, what symptoms should i look for in the turrion?)

 

You're thinking that this shotgun is really a lot more fragile than it actually is...

 

From what I've seen of what people have posted up, the only real damage from an overgassed gun seen commonly is the bolt carrier cracking/breaking where the op rod (gas piston) threads into it, or the op rod itself breaking. I've seen some pics of rear trunnions being chewed up some... but its conjecture as to exactly how badly that has damaged the gun seeing as it is still functional.

 

Personally, the only thing I would be hesitant shooting in a gun that was on the overgassed side would be 3 inch shells. I would be fine with shooting 2 3/4 high brass on setting 1 even if that setting was still cycling low brass.

You know the ak platform sets the standard to not be f ed with, and the saiga is no exception. But I'm just worried about long term, in the sense of will this cause problems down the road. And as long as its covered under warranty, id rather have it fixed now.

 

You're 100% right, its not fragile. But it's not indestructible, and overgassing can lead to some problems, even tho its pretty uncommon.

On the bright side, at least we can turn down gas easily by a newer puck, where as if it didnt cycle enough gas, we would definitly need professional work done.

 

Thanks for your help

[zenman223 460]

 

 

That seems to be the direction everybody thinks to go. My plug was stuck at first, but a simple shake and it fell right out, so i dont know if the plug is the issue. It kinda sucks to blow 30 bucks on a gun thats only a few days old. I've looked on a few other forums, and they think its a cheap fix, and Legion USA often just pays for reimbursement to have somebody do the work locally (with prior approval).

 

Okay, so the system is overgassed, and alot of you people think a new plug is the answer. Which brand?

 

 

I really appreciate your help. What exactly should i look for just to be sure there isn't damage? (over time, what symptoms should i look for in the turrion?)

You dont need a gunsmith to "fix" anything in fact you should count yourself lucky your gun runs everything out the box. All you need is a gas plug. By plug I mean the plug you screw in NOT the gas PISTON that goes in the gas block. Get a MD V-plug, start at setting one and adjust until it cycles. I bet it wont cycle those winchester on setting 1 with the v-plug. Problem solved. I wouldnt use the auto plug for this.

 

Watch where the rear of the carrier contacts the trunnion for marks or peening. This will be a good indicator of if your putting to much stress on the carrier but winchester univ. isnt a problem regardless.

Overgassing is a non issue dont try and make it one, its no big deal. I understand wanting to make sure your gun last a lifetime but you dont need anything but a new gas plug and this will almost certainly "fix" it.

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

 

 

 

That seems to be the direction everybody thinks to go. My plug was stuck at first, but a simple shake and it fell right out, so i dont know if the plug is the issue. It kinda sucks to blow 30 bucks on a gun thats only a few days old. I've looked on a few other forums, and they think its a cheap fix, and Legion USA often just pays for reimbursement to have somebody do the work locally (with prior approval).

 

Okay, so the system is overgassed, and alot of you people think a new plug is the answer. Which brand?

 

 

I really appreciate your help. What exactly should i look for just to be sure there isn't damage? (over time, what symptoms should i look for in the turrion?)

You dont need a gunsmith to "fix" anything in fact you should count yourself lucky your gun runs everything out the box. All you need is a gas plug. By plug I mean the plug you screw in NOT the gas PISTON that goes in the gas block. Get a MD V-plug, start at setting one and adjust until it cycles. I bet it wont cycle those winchester on setting 1 with the v-plug. Problem solved. I wouldnt use the auto plug for this.

 

Watch where the rear of the carrier contacts the trunnion for marks or peening. This will be a good indicator of if your putting to much stress on the carrier but winchester univ. isnt a problem regardless.

Overgassing is a non issue dont try and make it one, its no big deal. I understand wanting to make sure your gun last a lifetime but you dont need anything but a new gas plug and this will almost certainly "fix" it.

Thank You, I appreciate your advice, I'm looking into one now, In the meantime, there isn't any way i could damage the gun using the low power loads im using, is there? Because the damage is caused by the heavy rounds, which i can't afford (i know, its weird).

[zenman223 460]

I guess anythings possible but realistically I would say no, the winchester univ. is the weakest load there is. You'll be fine for awhile but I wouldnt shoot a few 1000 rounds of it without a new gas plug b/c even that low power stuff could cause a problem over time if it is severally overgassed.

All I can afford to shoot is bulk pack birdshot too Try the federal bulk its a better load all around, same price.

[IxLikexRussianxGuns 3]

I guess anythings possible but realistically I would say no, the winchester univ. is the weakest load there is. You'll be fine for awhile but I wouldnt shoot a few 1000 rounds of it without a new gas plug b/c even that low power stuff could cause a problem over time if it is severally overgassed.

All I can afford to shoot is bulk pack birdshot too Try the federal bulk its a better load all around, same price.

I know fed is better, i just wanted to start at the shittiest ammo i could find (winchester universal in NOTORIOUS for being a tall glass of poop juice) and work up from there. Didn't think it'd actually cycle.

Thanks for your help, buddy.

[leadsled 40]

Get a Blackjack buffer to prevent carrier impacting the trunnion along with the Vplug.

[alistar 13]

Thank You, I appreciate your advice, I'm looking into one now, In the meantime, there isn't any way i could damage the gun using the low power loads im using, is there? Because the damage is caused by the heavy rounds, which i can't afford (i know, its weird).

 

Hmmm. I have a bolt carrier that broke after installing a heavy duty piston rod to replace the original, which itself broke after about 7500-8000 rounds of Remington "gun club" skeet loads.

 

My gun would also work fine with low power loads on setting "1".

 

My understanding is that some of the bolt carriers are made too brittle, although it is unclear if this is the case with my gun. I did increase the recoil spring to a 26 pound model after the piston rod cracked, with some improvement: I had to dial down to "2" for reliable function with the gun club ammo. The MD arms plug did not offer me any advantage over the stock plug.

 

So, I would say that it is possible that shooting lower power loads can cause a problem, especially if there is truly an issue with the bolt carrier. As Pauly says, the weakest link is the threaded area.

 

A question for those of you who are using the auto-plug; do you think this is reliable enough for home defense?