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Best In-Home Defence Round???


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I feel a rifle round is a poor choice for HD if you have to worry about family in other rooms or neighbors close by as in most residential settings. I have a few pistols and a shotgun loaded acordingly.

 

Remember, you are responsible for going beyond your target! I would not want that to be my family members or a neighbor. I have yet to see a rifle round to stop at most home defense distances.

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+1 I really don't know how you can argue against a shot gun

 

Watch the magpul art of the dynamic shotgun video; interestingly enough they lay out some arguments against the shotgun for HD on their shotgun DVD. A carbine can have a number of advantages: It is smaller and lighter making it easier to wield, particularly for someone who is smaller in stature; it is IMHO easier to learn to run a carbine really well than a shotgun; one bullet for one trigger pull can equal less liabilities flying through the air (of course a tight patterning gun and proficient user can negate a lot of that);faster followups and transitions between targets; higher capacity, easier to mount suppressor.

 

A shotgun has really only two traits where it really shines or has an advantage, first and foremost is its sheer power. Of course that is a notable advantage when one is trying to stop an imminent threat (which is the only reason to be shooting defensively). Second is often cost (there are of course exceptions) I have and train with defensive shotguns. They for many people are a very viable choice. I, however, can not sign up to the school of that suggesting that they are per se the best choice all the time for HD though.

 

go shoot one in an interior structure in the dark without hearing protection.. and your opinion may change..

 

I think I would rather touch off my shotgun than any of my defensive handguns ( I can say from experience that some of them are definitely worse) or a carbine.

 

 

he tactic and the skill of the operator are far more important.

 

+1

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I am far from expert but I have shot 7.62x39 through many things... and I would be very apprehensive to shoot that round inside.. I use a pistol caliber carbine for any interior HD situation.. remember.. you are responsible for EVERY round you fire...

Use an appropriate round like the 124 grain v-max, that is what I would use, and it will over penetrate less than a many pistol rounds.

To answer the question the OP presented, I would definitive avoid FMJ rounds. I would most likely opt for the Hornady 124 grain v max for HD use.

 

... just scoured the Hornady web site looking for the V-Max round ... can't seem to find it for the 7.62 x 39 ... says it ain't available for that caliber. Do I need to look harder ??

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An M1 carbine with a 30 round magazine makes a great visual deterrent. About ten years ago, I lived on 20 acres in the Sierra Nevada foothills in Kalifornia. Our house was on a dead end gravel road. Late one nght, my wife was out of town and I was up late with the lights out (watching the History Channel). I heard a car creeping up the road and it sounded like it was pulling into out driveway. I looked out a curtain and saw a blacked out POS beater car with four hairy-scary goblin types in it pulling up to the front of the house. I grabbed my Inland M1 carbine (stock pouch with two 15s and a 30 rounder in it) and cell phone. Just as they were getting ready to dismount the vehicle, I turned on the yard light as I stepped out the front door with the carbine at the ready (in their direction) and said "Hello boys!" Their eyes were as big as coffee saucers, and the driver could not get the car turned around fast enough. He did cheap body work on his car, banging into boulders that lined the driveway and parking area, then took off down the road, lights out at high speed. The road is terrible, and he was bottoming out all the way.

 

Sun Tzu said the best battle is the one you win by not having to fight it.

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I feel a rifle round is a poor choice for HD if you have to worry about family in other rooms or neighbors close by as in most residential settings. I have a few pistols and a shotgun loaded acordingly.

 

Remember, you are responsible for going beyond your target! I would not want that to be my family members or a neighbor. I have yet to see a rifle round to stop at most home defense distances.

 

Shotguns and pistols will also penetrate walls and potentially hit your family members. Unless you use birdshot, perhaps, which is for birds, not for people bent on harming you.

Edited by Jim Digriz
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So I looked on the Hornday sight and I didn't see the v-max listed for a loaded cartridge (which by the way I erroneously reffed to as a 124 grain it is in fact 123). However, it is listed on there Law enforcement section (because so many more agencies than civilians use x39????).

 

I believe ammo links fall outside the rule for non sponsor links. If that is no longer the case I am sure my post will be edited. If that occurs go to the Hornady page then go to the law enforcement link on the left. Then click on rifles and then 7.62x39.

 

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail83c3.html?id=72&sID=148&pID=1

 

 

7-62x39_123gr_V-Max_Section.jpg

 

 

8078-762x39-123-GR-VMAX-gel.jpg

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On a related note these videos help illustrate the difference between a pistol round and a rifle round.

 

The first is the venerable 230 gr. .45 ACP. The second a lowly 5.56 poodle shooter. And lastly a 00 buck 12 gauge load. These of course are not the loads in question but they give a general idea of the power of a pistol vis-a-vis a long gun.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe6hEcdki_8&feature=youtu.be

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2vaJCBQTs&feature=youtu.be

 

 

 

Edited by Zambidis
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On a related note these videos help illustrate the difference between a pistol round and a rifle round.

 

The first is the venerable 230 gr. .45 ACP. The second a lowly 5.56 poodle shooter. And lastly a 00 buck 12 gauge load. These of course are not the loads in question but they give a general idea of the power of a pistol vis-a-vis a long gun.

 

 

Yeah all three are going to be fatal and quickly.

 

I am just not going to grab a rifle to confront in close quarters. We ran some practice drills, there were some forced entry incidents in the neighborhood, and I found it was not as easy to move around with x39. The 40 cal Sub2k is going to do the job, small light and deadly it can be set up very nicely for low light use.

 

All that aside one thing to consider seriously:

I keep a pair of Pro-Ears handy, I can hear a cat snore on the other end of the house but they prevent hearing damage, which could be permanent and if you have never experienced it, potentially debilitating at a very bad time.

 

Makes a hell of an advantage in a dark house.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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I feel a rifle round is a poor choice for HD if you have to worry about family in other rooms or neighbors close by as in most residential settings. I have a few pistols and a shotgun loaded acordingly.

 

Remember, you are responsible for going beyond your target! I would not want that to be my family members or a neighbor. I have yet to see a rifle round to stop at most home defense distances.

 

Shotguns and pistols will also penetrate walls and potentially hit your family members. Unless you use birdshot, perhaps, which is for birds, not for people bent on harming you.

 

I can not argue that point and say it can't happen. I do however think you can limit some of the overpenitration by using many pistol or shotgun rounds designed for HD, verses a higher velocity rifle round!

I just see and have found the rifle round has a far greater FPS and seems to be less upset at close range than a pistol or shotgun round.

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Yeah all three are going to be fatal and quickly.

 

Not necessarily, I know people who have taken COM shots from .45s and 9mm and are still around. Some of them were hit multiple times even.

 

you can limit some of the overpenitration by using many pistol or shotgun rounds designed for HD, verses a higher velocity rifle round!

 

What pistol round are you going to use that over penetrates less than a TAP rifle round? What loads specifically are you referring to? Thanks.

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Yeah all three are going to be fatal and quickly.

 

Not necessarily, I know people who have taken COM shots from .45s and 9mm and are still around. Some of them were hit multiple times even.

 

you can limit some of the overpenitration by using many pistol or shotgun rounds designed for HD, verses a higher velocity rifle round!

 

What pistol round are you going to use that over penetrates less than a TAP rifle round? What loads specifically are you referring to? Thanks.

 

 

is there not a hornady or similar product that will perform and minimize over penetration?

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Yeah all three are going to be fatal and quickly.

 

Not necessarily, I know people who have taken COM shots from .45s and 9mm and are still around. Some of them were hit multiple times even.

 

you can limit some of the overpenitration by using many pistol or shotgun rounds designed for HD, verses a higher velocity rifle round!

 

What pistol round are you going to use that over penetrates less than a TAP rifle round? What loads specifically are you referring to? Thanks.

 

Once a 7.62x39 TAP type bullet passes through an average torso, it will likely be so mangled and deformed that it may not even penetrate one drywall sheet. However, I think some would be concerned about missing the badguy altogether and knowing the bullet will sail through many walls.

As long as you don't miss, those plastic tip bullets will probably put the badguys lights out fast and not go far beyond.

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Not that I am aware of. The tap rounds are based on the v max bullet. I'm not aware of pistol rounds using a bullet of similar construction. Furthermore, the way they perform is based largely on the very high velocity ( ironically the same thing that people try to allege will lead to over penetration) of rifle rounds.

 

There are glasser rounds and the like but they go way too far in giving up adequate penetration to prevent over penetration/penetration of walls and the like. The wounding characteristics of such rounds are really wanting. I'd much rather take my chance with an over penetrating pistol round than one that can't get reliable penetration needed to stop the attacker. Glasser rounds and the like are IMHO not suitable for defensive use. They may will have less penetration of barries (theres a number of tests out there showing that they didn't fragment after passing through interior walls) and people than a TAP rifle round but lack the necessary penetration and compared to a rifle take a serious backseat in terminal ballistics. In fact in brass fetchers testing he fired a 9mm +p glasser round into a wall. It failed to fragment, struck the gel behind the wall as a solid slug that again failed to fragment but still came short of 12" of penetration. Below are his conclussions after testing the round:

 

 

 

Having evaluated this particular line of Safety Slug against standardized barriers and ballistic media, a

few conclusions may be made. First, the penetration of the tested round against a bare gelatin block is wholly

inadequate when viewed in light of the FBI minimum penetration depth of 12î in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

 

This is exacerbated by the fact that the tested block was out-of-calibration, in that a steel BB impacting at 590

ft/sec is to penetrate to 8.5cm in a ëperfect blockí. Due to the multiple sub-projectiles of the tested bullets, a

correction procedure was not undertaken to determine the penetration depth that this ammunition would achieve

in an ideal block. In any case, the penetration would be less in an ideal block, due to the lower-than-standard

viscosity of the tested block.

 

Perhaps the point of greatest interest is the failure of the bullet to reduce penetration when fired through

interior walls, as might occur in the event of a complete miss during a defensive shooting event inside a

structure ñ lethality of the round is actually increased by the presence of an intervening interior wall

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If over-penetration is your principle concern, then you should take a defensive shooting class to make sure you are capable of hitting your target and not innocent bystanders behind it.

 

If you feel that you need 30 rounds to knock out a group of 5 or less intruders in your home, then you should take a defensive shooting class to teach you trigger discipline and again how to actually hit your target.

 

If you plan on engaging every noise in your house with gunfire, then you need to take your medicine and have a proper flashlight and glasses to ensure that it isn't your pet, spouse, child, relative, or your house/pipes settling.

 

No magic fucking bullet will prevent you from being an idiot and engaging when it isn't safe or appropriate. And confidence in your ability with your weapon leads to proper shot placement, which is more important than the type of ammunition/weapon you use.

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If over-penetration is your principle concern, then you should take a defensive shooting class to make sure you are capable of hitting your target and not innocent bystanders behind it.

 

Another thing that I did when I was hunting for a new house was to reject houses with a layout that made it likely that I might have to shoot in the direction of my children's rooms in the case of a home invasion.

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I think some would be concerned about missing the badguy altogether and knowing the bullet will sail through many walls.

 

Anything that will perform adequately on an attacker is going to zip through drywall. There is simply no way around that. That said, the tap tends tend to lose more energy after going through barriers than typical HD pistol rounds. There are videos and tests out there showing as much.

 

 

If over-penetration is your principle concern, then you should take a defensive shooting class to make sure you are capable of hitting your target and not innocent bystanders behind it.

 

Well over penetration could include the idea of hitting the target and getting a through and through.

 

Training and skills are crucial no doubt. Misses can and do still happen in gun fights.

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If it's been flogged to death, it's because everyone concerned with self defense has opinions that affect his or her safety. In the interest of trying to discover an answer to this particular question, I endeavor to record here my own thoughts.

 

First, this is the 7.62 X 39 forum of Saiga-12. I will limit myself to that firearm and the ammunition for it.

 

The Yugo military surplus round is popular because it tumbles easily and more quickly than other 7.62 X 39 cheap ammo. I don't like that it is corrosive.

 

The Wolf Military Classic hollow point is well regarded because it has been so positively reviewed by Evan Marshall on the Stopping Power site. I note that he tested it at close range through a Yugo SKS with grenade launcher, a considerably longer barrel than the 16 inch tube on my Saiga. This round shoots well through my other rifles of the same caliber and I have been buying only this for more than a year. It is what I plan to use in the future. I am concerned that a recent post here reported the new Wolf Military Classic hollow point has a different bullet. I have examined my most recently ordered ammo and cannot tell if it has been changed or not. This concerns me some, but as Mr. Marshall has said, "A full metal jacket bullet will kill you dead!" Again, the original poster has asked for an "in house" defensive round in this caliber. I have loaded my magazines with the older Wolf Military Classic hollow point ammo. That's what I do, not what I recommend. It represents the best compromise I have found for my own situation. I honor a good hit with adequate ammo above a marginal hit (or miss) with special ammo. If I could afford to shoot as much special ammo as I can adequate ammo, I would do so.

 

I would love to hear from anyone who knows what change, if any, has been made in the Wolf MC hollow point bullet and whether that change (if any) was concurrent with the change in printing on the 20 round box.

 

fflincher

 

Sorry if this one's been 'flogged' to death but I can't find any info newer than 2010 on this question. Has any company manufactured a truly 'in house' defencive round for our beloved carbines this year?

 

I see Magsafe for 6 rounds at $25.95. Is Wolf Military Classic HP still one of the best for this purpose??

 

Thanks.

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I honor a good hit with adequate ammo above a marginal hit (or miss) with special ammo. If I could afford to shoot as much special ammo as I can adequate ammo, I would do so.

 

For what it is worth, I train with the cheapest stuff I can find. After some function testing of a given round there is no real need to use it for all shooting or even all training. I do the same with my CCW. I could see an issue if one was using two dramatically different rounds. However two different 124 grain loads are likely to be similar enough as to not really matter for almost all training purposes.

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If it's been flogged to death, it's because everyone concerned with self defense has opinions that affect his or her safety. In the interest of trying to discover an answer to this particular question, I endeavor to record here my own thoughts.

 

First, this is the 7.62 X 39 forum of Saiga-12. I will limit myself to that firearm and the ammunition for it.

 

Bravo!!!

 

When I posted this as one of my first post, I did not want to refer to my new Saiga AK47 as that, so, I chose to say 'beloved carbines' ... anyway, I thank all you folks for your input especially you - Zambidis - for the gel pic of the V-Max. After investigating that round as thoroughly as I could, I felt that was the one for me and my needs and am waiting for their arrival to their new home.big_smile.gif

Edited by bluezguy
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Best thing for HD is a Shotgun, but if I had to use a AK I'd say any softpoint would do

 

Yeah a Saiga 12 comes to mind...Talk about being able to handle an invading horde.

 

/agree on the softpoint if its good for hunting it will do, Remington PSP will do fine.

 

Hell I think most people forget 22LR still ranks number one as the killer round. We over think this subject, the weapon is a prepared mind not the tool it uses.

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The home invadors nowadays are well prepared with tactic. As some one mentioned earlier, the BGs are come in pack. There was a home invasion just happened last night that reminds me about this thread.

http://www.palmbeach...ch-1965967.html

 

Now I need upgrading some higher capacity firearm and more trainning with my family.

Edited by AE86FL
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The home invadors nowadays are well prepared with tactic. As some one mentioned earlier, the BGs are come in pack. There was a home invasion just happened last night that reminds me about this thread.

http://www.palmbeach...ch-1965967.html

 

Now I need upgrading some higher capacity firearm and more trainning with my family.

 

Sounds to me like the daughter who got out with her cell phone to call the cops may have had a bit of 'training' already. In a case like this, where you have more than one idiot assaulting your home, I do support the semi-auto 12 guage!!! It's too bad the assailants weren't met with one as they beat down the door...

Edited by bluezguy
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