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Question about American users Saiga.


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Dear forum members!

But please tell us, than shooting in America? What ammo? What is the weight of the projectile, what a mass of gunpowder?

 

I'm studying your forum and I am surprised the number of problems with work automation. We have for example no one removes the gas chamber and does not increase holes, but in America it is done immediately after the purchase, almost all of the owners.

For example, in Russia, Saiga owners generally shoot bullets with the sample 28-32g., Although some no problem shooting and 24g

 

Sergey.

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To shoot these rounds, I had to have the gas ports modified.

 

This is usually what I shoot for sporting clays:

p_105200880_1.jpg

Application: Target,Training

Brand Style: Gold Medal Plastic

Cartridge: 12 Gauge

Dram Equivalent: 2.75

Length: 2 3/4

Muzzle Energy: 1353

Muzzle Velocity (feet per second): 1180

 

Everything else: slugs, buckshot, highbrass works fine without modifing the gas ports.

 

I shoot these aswell:

pix974891541.jpg

 

Hope this helps.

 

ETA: I also had a polish service on my bolt and carrier that increased reliability to 100%

Edited by AZG
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I did not have to enlarge enlarge my three ports to run Federal bulk pack. I did have to enlarge the gas block which was partially covering two of them which seems to be an extremely common issue. A professional polish job never hurts either. Just my 2 cents

post-29460-0-17010400-1320773145_thumb.jpg

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Most sporting loads here are 28 to 35 grams, sometimes considerably more (up to 46 or so) for goose hunting, for example. self-defense ammo usually runs 35 to 42 grams. Powder loads are from 2.5-3.5 dram eq. The vast majority of shotshells here are 70mm in length, but some defense and hunting loads can be commonly found in 76mm and 89mm as well.

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Your premis is interesting but incorrect Sergey. Just as all Americans don't live on McDonalds hamburgers, and all Americans do not speak in inappropriately loud voices in museums, most of the Saiga 12s that arrive on our shores are not modified in the manner you have described.

 

Because the guns come here in one form, and many owners prefer the guns in another form, quite a few (but certainly not all) of the guns that are imported, are modified into configurations that better conform with their owners needs and desires

 

One of the very interesting things about Saiga shotguns is that because the guns are virtually hand assembled, every gun is just a little different. These differences can be minute from gun to gun, or they can be rather dramatic. For example - unpacking a random lot of four factory guns - you may find that one gun has three ports, one gun two ports, one gun four ports, and one gun three - where one or two ports are not drilled all the way through. Almost invariably the aperture (large port) between the smaller ports in the barrel and the gas block will be either slightly out of alignment (all available ports visible), or completely misaligned - blocking one or more of the available ports.

 

The gas blocks themselves may arrive correctly aligned, or they may be canted (slightly off to the side). There can be lots of other issues with the guns as well. In some cases it is necessary to address one or more of these issues in order for the guns to perform to their owners satisfaction. Since there is no one size fits all solution for a gun that does not perform to its full potential, the issues for each gun must be addressed individually.

 

My company does a great deal of this type of work, and there are a number of other forum sponsors who do so as well.

 

In fact, some of the absolute finest and most innovative Saiga gunsmiths in the world are located right here in the USA, and many are forum members and sponsors here.

 

The short answer to your question is, that because we love our Saiga shotguns, we want them to perform to their absolute potential, and we don't want to settle for anything less.

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2AZG

2Sian

 

I see that the bullets do not differ from those that we use. If 28 g Saiga does not work "out of the box", then we put the bolt carrier to the rearmost position and leave it in that position for a week. After that, Saiga begins to work without problems.

 

 

2Lone Star Arms

 

I understand that all Americans are different, just as not all the Russian drink vodka :) I like prefer brandy or whiskey :D

 

Unfortunately, the quality of the Saiga is not very high. We have these weapons have the same problems. Are not too smooth gas blocks, but the gas ports are usually all in place. Very rarely come across ports blocked gas block.

 

Comparing your forum Russian forum, I see you have a more profound revision of our arms. I also use some parts made ​​in America. Just as long as their crossing of the ocean, the price doubles :)

 

 

The short answer to your question is, that because we love our Saiga shotguns, we want them to perform to their absolute potential, and we don't want to settle for anything less

 

Bravo! It is worthy of respect!

 

ps I thought that the problem of weak cartridges, see what was wrong.

Edited by Sergii
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and to add to this topic - I haven't tried my saiga yet - in the conversion process now, but the new unconverted gun came from CCS with perfect finish, 4 clear ports, straight and well placed gas block.

 

with Pauly's glass bolt I have no doubt it will work like a champ!

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My S12 ran fine out of the box. I had to add a few things to help it cycle my reloads (7/8oz of 7.5 shot with 19.6 grains of Clays powder) like a V-plug and a booster puck, but I didn't have to tear it apart and drill out the gas ports.

 

7/8oz is about 24g. What is the length of the barrel at the Saiga?

You're in luck :)

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My S12 ran fine out of the box. I had to add a few things to help it cycle my reloads (7/8oz of 7.5 shot with 19.6 grains of Clays powder) like a V-plug and a booster puck, but I didn't have to tear it apart and drill out the gas ports.

 

7/8oz is about 24g. What is the length of the barrel at the Saiga?

You're in luck smile.png

 

The standard barrel length of the IZ-109 export model shotgun is just over 19" inches - about 48.5 cm.

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2AZG

2Sian

I see that the bullets do not differ from those that we use. If 28 g Saiga does not work "out of the box", then we put the bolt carrier to the rearmost position and leave it in that position for a week. After that, Saiga begins to work without problems.

 

Thats a method Ive never heard before. Interesting.

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2AZG

2Sian

I see that the bullets do not differ from those that we use. If 28 g Saiga does not work "out of the box", then we put the bolt carrier to the rearmost position and leave it in that position for a week. After that, Saiga begins to work without problems.

 

Thats a method Ive never heard before. Interesting.

 

to loosen the recoil spring apparently?

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2AZG

2Sian

I see that the bullets do not differ from those that we use. If 28 g Saiga does not work "out of the box", then we put the bolt carrier to the rearmost position and leave it in that position for a week. After that, Saiga begins to work without problems.

 

Thats a method Ive never heard before. Interesting.

 

to loosen the recoil spring apparently?

I donno. to make it work in general I guess. Have never done it before.

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Dear forum members!

But please tell us, than shooting in America? What ammo? What is the weight of the projectile, what a mass of gunpowder?

I had one S12 that wouldn't eject slugs or any other round. At all, every round failed to eject. Another ejected the hulls from slugs over 7 meters every time on the lowest gas setting and would cycle the weakest rounds on the lowest gas setting. Both of them got sent back to the distributor to fix, which they did. The other worked just like it should.

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My S12 ran fine out of the box. I had to add a few things to help it cycle my reloads (7/8oz of 7.5 shot with 19.6 grains of Clays powder) like a V-plug and a booster puck, but I didn't have to tear it apart and drill out the gas ports.

 

7/8oz is about 24g. What is the length of the barrel at the Saiga?

You're in luck :)

 

My S12 came with, I think, a 22 or 24 inch barrel. I have since cut and rethreaded it down to 19.5 inches.

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My Saiga would not even come close to cycling any standard "trap" or "small game" ammunition, including reloads. In my opinion it is not the gun's design but a common problem of weapons operated by gas ports -- ammo makers using fast-burning powder in low volumes to save money.

 

It is well-known that the M1 Garand must be reloaded with powders in a specific burn range to avoid delivering too high of a pressure at the gas port and snapping the operating rod...shattering the stock and likely the forearm/face of the shooter. My grandfather had a Ruger .44 Magnum Deerhunter from the 1970s, which he gave to my brother-in-law before he died. I coveted that gun but it stayed in the family so I was happy for my brother-in-law. However, over a period of several years, he could not get it to cycle. Frustrated with what he saw as a flawed weapon, he called Ruger and took it to several gunsmiths. Ruger would do nothing but give him credit towards a new gun if he returned it (not likely with a family heirloom) and the gunsmiths said it was a design flaw with no fix. Finally, fed up, my brother-in-law gave it to me and said since it was my grandfather's gun, if I could fix it I could keep it.

 

Having an M1 Garand, it occurred to me that it may be a pressure problem from the ammo and not a gun flaw. I researched and decided that maybe despite the ammo having the correct peak pressure, the pressure at the gas port may be too low. I bought dies and made reloads with H110, a tried-and-true magnum pistol powder on the slower end.

 

The results spoke for themselves. 200+ rounds later, the gun has yet to exhibit a single problem. It would not cycle a single round with factory ammo -- no doubtedly manufactured to shoot in short-barreled pistols.

 

I believe the same is true with the S-12. In the US, myself and many others want to feed them cheap light trap loads, which are loaded with fast-burning powders -- that's the cheapest way to do it. My reloads, while on the upper end of the 12 gauge pressure range, used fast-burning Red Dot powder.

 

With profiling of the bold and hammer, I was able to make my gun reliably cycle these cheap reloads. However, I really wonder if reloading myself using a slower-burning powder may have accomplished the same thing. But as designed, the S-12 simply will not reliably cycle the cheap shells we buy here. There were no flaws in the design of my gun, it just would not cycle them as manufactured.

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So, since modern springs are not supposed to weaken when fully compressed ie: loaded magazines, rather the compression/decompression action through use, how does locking the bolt to the rear for a week work? Just curious, is this a solution Izhmash is telling you guys in Russia to do?

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So, since modern springs are not supposed to weaken when fully compressed ie: loaded magazines, rather the compression/decompression action through use, how does locking the bolt to the rear for a week work? Just curious, is this a solution Izhmash is telling you guys in Russia to do?
.

 

Izhmash us says anything, they believe

that problems with their weapons there.

This method is used by those who want

to shoot bullets 28 g. Those who are

too lazy to do 200-300 shots cartridges

32g for running weapons. In addition, it

is totally free and you can always have a

spare spring.

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Most of you guys are lucky. My new build won't cycle low brass and hi brass won't cycle in my MD-20 drum. I have a lot of work to do.

 

wow, I sure hope that is not the build you payed someone to build for you, if so, I would make it public and raise some hell. FWIW, my s12 runs everything/anything with no profiling, no port work, no gas block work, nothing special, never been cleaned and fucked up parts on it ...:haha:

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Mine ran cheapo Federal bird shot out of the box. Same ammo as pictured in 1st post . Stopped using it due to some inconsistent rounds. Using Remington Light Dove (same size as the Federal) for 3-gun. Had some issues when I converted it to a pistol grip but all that has been corrected. Most of my problems after the conversion were related to the aftermarket mags. I am using most of the goodies out there... Autoplug, CSS Puck, JT Magwell, Auto-LRBHO...

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Sergii,

 

It is also possible that Izhmash keeps the higher quality (relatively speaking) production runs for domestic sale while exporting lower quality production runs. The guns you buy in Russia might just be better versions of the guns we get here in the US.

 

Plus, until recently, Saigas sold here in the US were produced at least 2 years ago. Newly imported Saigas seem to be at least produced in 2011. You might also have access to newer/improved production process guns than we do here.

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Most of the "2011" guns we are getting (not all) have 4 ports. Gas block alignment is still a crap shoot. There are a couple of minor changes, but for the most part the guns are identical in build and quality to the older model guns.

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Most of you guys are lucky. My new build won't cycle low brass and hi brass won't cycle in my MD-20 drum. I have a lot of work to do.

 

wow, I sure hope that is not the build you payed someone to build for you, if so, I would make it public and raise some hell. FWIW, my s12 runs everything/anything with no profiling, no port work, no gas block work, nothing special, never been cleaned and fucked up parts on it ...naaaa.gif

I remember you from last time I commented. You were of no help then either. Thanks.

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Most of you guys are lucky. My new build won't cycle low brass and hi brass won't cycle in my MD-20 drum. I have a lot of work to do.

 

wow, I sure hope that is not the build you payed someone to build for you, if so, I would make it public and raise some hell. FWIW, my s12 runs everything/anything with no profiling, no port work, no gas block work, nothing special, never been cleaned and fucked up parts on it ...naaaa.gif

I remember you from last time I commented. You were of no help then either. Thanks.

 

ouch, :wet_eyes: I tried. by telling you not to pay someone to do something any noob can. and I am trying now. if you paid someone for a build, and it doesnt run, you should not have to personally work on it, nor should you pay anything else to get it to run. Also, this thread was about needing to do work on domestic saiga 12s, not just yours, so I added my :2c: that mine required no work, not even a profile.

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Most of you guys are lucky. My new build won't cycle low brass and hi brass won't cycle in my MD-20 drum. I have a lot of work to do.

 

wow, I sure hope that is not the build you payed someone to build for you, if so, I would make it public and raise some hell. FWIW, my s12 runs everything/anything with no profiling, no port work, no gas block work, nothing special, never been cleaned and fucked up parts on it ...naaaa.gif

I remember you from last time I commented. You were of no help then either. Thanks.

 

ouch, :wet_eyes: I tried. by telling you not to pay someone to do something any noob can. and I am trying now. if you paid someone for a build, and it doesnt run, you should not have to personally work on it, nor should you pay anything else to get it to run. Also, this thread was about needing to do work on domestic saiga 12s, not just yours, so I added my :2c: that mine required no work, not even a profile.

 

Sorry to the origanal OP. beefcake0 you are an unhelpful tool. There are lots of other gun boards filled with people like you. I suspect your an uncofident young lad in his twenties that feels better about himself by putting down others for not knowing or especially not careing about your knowledge on firearms. Try going to uzitalk and you will see the senior posters helping "noobs" and not putting them down. I came here to get info not lectured or talked down to. I don't want to work on the gun just shoot it and clean it. On second thought don't go to uzitalk. The amount of money spent on weapons there and how cool everyone is to,each other might just put you in orbit. Sorry to be harsh with you but I only give two strikes. Sorry about my spelling. I went to public school.

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