410 10rd mags illegal?

[ddhotbot 0]

help me out here guys! i have been told it is illegal too have a 10rd mag on your 410.this makes it a semi auto assault weapon.i have no other mods done too the gun.is it illegal too use 10rd mags on my saiga 410?thanks

[Rusty 0]

Depends on your state. Some don't like you having more than 3 for hunting, while others get their panties in a wad if you even have a magazine fed shotgun.

[dinzag 31]

My understanding was that 10 rounders (or any mag with a capacity greater than 5 rounds) in any of the Saiga shotguns is illegal in their non-modified configuration. Basically you are supposed to have no more than 10 imported parts on it to get away with mags with more than 5 rounds. (magazine parts included)

 

In Michigan you can hunt with 5 rounds in a shotgun for anything except for waterfoul. This varies from state to state. Some states allow folding stocks, some don't. Some states handguns can only have 10 rounds and others more.

 

As far as the 10 rounders I think that is a federal thing (ATF) first, then state regulated after that. (Being more restrictive)

 

Yawn - I'm putting myself to sleep...anyway search this site and see what you dig up. Also you can contact the ATF and check your own state laws.

[Hutch 0]

From what I have understood its IMPORT thats the problem since the AWB is gone....but i could very well be wrong. I however do own 2 10 rd .410 mags myself, and a standerd modeal saiga.

[emclean 0]

My understanding was that 10 rounders (or any mag with a capacity greater than 5 rounds) in any of the Saiga shotguns is illegal in their non-modified configuration.

(this aint ment as a flame) can you show us where this is written? i have seen this posted again and again, bu tnever with a link to any code that supports it.

to the best of my knolige there is no fed law restricting the size of a shotgun's mag. there are limits for the size when hunting, but those are state laws.

[acetomatoco 0]

[Wolverine 10,360]

So is it sporting or not to use a ten round .410 magazine when target shooting? Certainly it can't be used for hunting (by Michigan State law) but why not target shooting? How is this any different that the 30 round mags EAA imported and sold for the 7.62's for "sporting" purposes? The magazines are different than any military magazine.

 

I think the more gray area is when you convert a Saiga rifle adding requisite US parts and then modify it to use a military magazine such as the AK 47 hi-cap rather than the specific Saiga magazine designed for use with the weapon. But perhaps even then you escape because the rifle is not constructed of (all) foreign parts given the fact you have used between four and six U.S. parts in the conversion process.

 

It seems as usual this is an interpretative matter that only BATFE can answer. But who in the world wants to ask the question only to get an answer none of us wants to hear.

 

Any other thoughts on this?

 

Wolverine

[acetomatoco 0]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/feib/index.htm

Click on ATEE-F Guidebook at the top of the page.

Read page 4 and then click the Entire Report icon

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/feib/gui...-1D-S-A-16+.pdf

Here is part of their interpretation and their ingenious way to determine Sporting Purpose. Thank You Hunting Guides. Its 19 pages but many near the end are references.

 

More on Pg 1, See ATEE-F Rule 94-1,95-3, Gun control Act of1968

More on Pg 4,you just read,Pg 6,

PAGE 24 Bottom of the Page Oops

 

Alot more reading

edit:fix link

Edited August 17, 2005 by acetomatoco

[dinzag 31]

emclean,

Same as you, I've heard it referred to time and time again - it's been programmed into my brain. I don't know for sure and cannot quote references. I may even have been transposing flashbacks from the AWB of 94. I've just dug through post after post on this site looking for certain article #'s or sites that were referred to...nada.

 

As for acetomatoco link, I gotta look that up yet. I guess as wolvie said, one of us will have to write a letter and get the opinion for the day.

[acetomatoco 0]

Edited August 17, 2005 by acetomatoco

[Wolverine 10,360]

How many foreign parts does the saiga .410 have? Asked another way, how many foreign parts must be replaced with US parts on the S-.410 to be 922r compliant?

 

I ask because I have done the conversion on mine using a new stock and G-2 trigger system. That's four parts. Am I there? If so it looks like I will be able to use my 10 round mags on the range. Any thoughts?

 

W.

[G O B 3,516]

That is my take on it, you need to loose 4 foregn parts. On the wife's .410 I used the trigger group (3 parts) and the gas piston. Remember you need to use a US pistol grip, or you are ADDING 1 foregn part.

 

G O B

[Wolverine 10,360]

That is my take on it, you need to loose 4 foregn parts. On the wife's .410 I used the trigger group (3 parts) and the gas piston. Remember you need to use a US pistol grip, or you are ADDING 1 foregn part.

 

G O B

 

Thanks GOB. I did use a USA grip and it is clearly marked as such.

 

I still have a question about ace's analysis. To follow the above logic/interpretation, using a Saiga 30 round mag imported by EAA in an unconverted 7.62 would be illegal because it is constructed of all foreign parts and seemingly may not be used for sporting purposes. However, the rifle is imported with a 10 round magazine as a "sporting rifle". That's five more rounds than the test referenced above. And on what basis did EAA import 30 round 7.62 mags and get past customs and presumably BATF to sell to us if not under the sporting clause if they were made specifically for the approved sporter Saiga rifle?

 

I think what has folks here asking questions is the shotgun mags exceeding five rounds either came through Russian Military or Acca47 directly from Russia. No one has made an official pronouncement on whether these fit the sporting clause definition as established by BATFE. It is safe to say the gubberment is aware of these mags as they routinely roam through this and other gun forums. Until I see something specific prohibiting the magazine by name and/or number of rounds my presumption is they are legal since they were made to work (exclusively) in an approved shotgun.

 

That is not to say that an argument could not be made to the contrary. Certainly BATFE could say by plugging a magazine exceeding five rounds into a Saiga shotgun you have constructed an all foreign parts weapon prohibited from importation and therefore it is illegal. Such an interpretation seems narrow but is plausable. Since there is no appeal from their ruling I don't see the value in asking the question unless you are prepared to have BATFE declare all the 8 and 10 round shotgun mags illegal apart from use in a converted rifle or shotgun with requisite US parts so as to be declared a US made weapon. Then there are other concerns. Many States, including Michigan, have standing laws prohibiting the construction of "assault weapons". Anyone here want to write the Michigan State Attorney General for his opinion on whether a standard conversion constitutes such illegal construction? I don't plan on it but some might have concerns about this as well.

 

Those are my thoughts on this topic but I am always open to new information and differing opinions to get at the root of the issues. Peace.

 

Wolverine

[acetomatoco 0]

Edited August 17, 2005 by acetomatoco

[emclean 0]

according to here a large cap mag would be 20-30 rounders. on page 6 under Milatary configuration.

 

the major problem is that there has been no determation from the ATF about 8 or 10 round mags for shotguns. there are "guidlines" but becoulse the desisions are made for each model it is imposable to guess what will happen till the ATF tells us.

we may end up with it being legal for a 20 ga but not a 12 ga.

 

all these rules go uot the window if you turn it into a "us made" weapon, replace 4 parts and it is no longer foreign.

 

also remember the .410 is unusal for a shotgun in that it has a bore small enoufg to not be a DD. that is why you can get a .410 handgun, but a 12ga, or 20ga would be a NFA weapon.

[acetomatoco 0]

according to here a large cap mag would be 20-30 rounders. on page 6 under Milatary configuration.

 

the major problem is that there has been no determation from the ATF about 8 or 10 round mags for shotguns. there are "guidlines" but becoulse the desisions are made for each model it is imposable to guess what will happen till the ATF tells us.

we may end up with it being legal for a 20 ga but not a 12 ga.

 

all these rules go uot the window if you turn it into a "us made" weapon, replace 4 parts and it is no longer foreign.

 

also remember the .410 is unusal for a shotgun in that it has a bore small enoufg to not be a DD. that is why you can get a .410 handgun, but a 12ga, or 20ga would be a NFA weapon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/feib/gui...-1D-S-A-16+.pdf

The 19 page Recommendation report was dated 7-6-1989. 16 years ago

Yes they were guidelines and recommendations then but here it is in Black and White now.

 

Current A T F Guidebook from their website.

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/feib/guidebook/FEIB-GB.pdf

Policies & Procedures, Restricted Importation,

page 6, 3rd paragraph

Non Sporting Firearms

Shotguns having a fixed magazine with a capacity of more than 5 cartridges.

 

I believe it is a determination now that they printed it in their Current Guidebook.

This Guidebook contains Laws and Regulations,Definitions,Policies and Procedures,

Forms and Drawings. Current things that they want people to know.

 

If they restricted a fixed magazine shotgun to 5 rds surely they would apply this to a shotgun with a detachable magazine.

It does not exclude the .410 or make special provisions for it.

 

Page 1 of the Guidebook does say:

In determining whether a particular rifle or shotgun is suitable for or readily adaptable to Sporting Purposes within the meaning of the statute, ATF generally relies upon an analysis of the physical features of the firearm. Determinations regarding the classification of a specific rifle or shotgun would be made on a case- by-case basis using criteria which includes the overall appearance, length, weight, receiver or frame design and construction,designed magazine capacity, configuration and the presence of various physical characteristics designed for military and Law Enforcement application that distinguish the sample rifle or shotgun fromtraditional sporting firearms.

(see e.g. ATF Rul. 94-1, 95-3)

I couldn't find these ATF Rules,can someone find them and give a link or post them?

 

Page 6 already states that shotguns with a mag over 5 rds are Non-Sporting.

 

ATF does have the final decision and I will really be surprised if any shotgun mag over 5 rds gets classified as Sporting Purpose.

Why didn't Saiga shotguns come to the U.S. with mags larger than 5 in the first place? I believe the answer lies above.

EAA would have sold a hell of alot more that way if they could have.

Imagine a Big Black Gun with a Big Black Mag.

 

all these rules go uot the window if you turn it into a "us made" weapon, replace 4 parts and it is no longer foreign.

Correct, The time everyone has spent posting and reading this thread could have been spent converting our guns. LOL LOL

Is it agreed that adding any other Evil Feature to an unconverted foreign weapon is illegal?

edit fix link

Edited August 17, 2005 by acetomatoco

[dinzag 31]

Agreed - thanks for the digging & research acetomatoco.

 

As far as the 30 rounder factory 7.62x39 mags, our local gun dealer has them in his book that EAA imported, but none for .223 and the shotties only 4 & 5 rounders. They musta overlooked it.