Saiga-12 , I'll Pass

[apick65 1]

hey Mike, I know they are kinda pricey down here in TX. If your local gunstore is too high. Hit one of the large gun shows like market hall. Only had a chance to put 15 rounds down range. 5) 00, 5) pdx-1 buck & slug, 5) target loads. Only one fte and that was because i didn't have it seated in shoulder all the way. This was done all on setting 1. Best friend thought I spent too much on it. Until we test fired it. As far as conversion. Everyone wants to make it their own. Shoot 870's at work. Love Mossbergs. Fell in love with mine when I shot it. Only other shotty i'll probably get will be KSG if/when they hit market.

[washburnizer 8]

I had a few problems with my 08 Saiga 12. Gas ports had to be enlarged and barrel threads were not straight. Warranty covered these fixes. I paid $50 to have bolt/carrier polished while it was "in the shop" at Cadiz. I converted it myself and parts cost about $200. (conversion kit from CSS and an ATI stock) Could have been done much cheaper.

 

Now, it's my favorite weapon for sure.

 

But, I agree, they are not for everyone. If you want to go another route, by all means do so. But the S12s are SO FUN, I would never ever sell mine.

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

if you think you're going to get a colt AR-15 for $275 or a saiga for $30 you must be hitting the same crack pipe as me

[vulcan16 971]

Well after thinking about it more and reading about all the problems here, I've decided it just isn't worth it -TO ME- to spend a extra $400-$500 to "FIX"(convert back to the way it was originally built,gas port problems,grind and polish to make the bolt work as it should from the factory,etc. etc.) a NEW gun that is already overpriced. Not to mention taking a chance on getting one with a weak carrier or one where the importer molest them to make them "work" to avoid warranty issues and no replacement parts available. If they were sold as they are now but called "KITS" and priced around $30 then MAYBE it would be worth it. I would still be taking a chance on getting one with weak parts and no replacements available. For me.....I'll pass.

It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

 

I guess I was hoping the Saiga would be built like my old Colt AR-15. I paid $275 for it brand new,Have shot well over 50,000 rounds with not a single FTF or FTE.....EVER. It still works as good as the day I bought it.The ONLY mod to it has been to add a scope.

I guess the imports don't believe in quality or quality control. As long as people keep buying them like that then they will see no need to improve.

You come to a Saiga forum, and then you bash the weapon.

Nice 2nd post

No "Bashing" at all. Just repeating what is posted here on the forum. Maybe you haven't read about the problems I listed? I would BET that since you have made over 600 post here that you have read about them. Repeating what has been posted is NOT Bashing. Man I TRULY didn't mean to step on any toes here. I was just trying to say Thank You for providing a wealth of good information on the S-12. I haven't ruled out the S-12 100% as I would love to see the build quality and reliability go up and price go down. That would not only make it better for me but better for everyone.

I wish there was a quality made semi with mag available that was priced for the average guy. Maybe the rules will change soon and they won't have to screw up a S-12 just so they can import it. If that happens, maybe they can use that time and labor toward making a better weapon. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a new S-12 and not have to take it apart to check for messed up parts on it?

Again, As long as the current S-12 makes you happy then that is all that matters. Enjoy!!

I'll leave you folks alone. I truly wish you folks the best of times with your s-12's.

P.S. I only came back to this forum because I was searching for info on the 1919 and saw a few post about it here. So far what I've read, It don't look all that great either.

Use the loads that the weapon was designed for, and there would be little to zero problems with the Saiga 12.

Most of us would like to use cheaper, weak loads, and that is where the problem lies.

 

I would have responded sooner........but I was at the range with GregM shooting our Saiga12's

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Everybody and their momma has an AR.(including me and my momma) It's really not that impressive. Dumping hundreds, if not thousands, of projectiles down range in a matter of seconds is impressive. IMO. Shoot one and you will own one. Carry on

[ItsAllCreated 59]

Damn trolls!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJqeAhjsjAw

Edited November 11, 2011 by ItsAllCreated

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Hopefully more people come to this conclusion, so prices will drop out! I need to get me atleast one more!

[glennhmd 23]

To the thread starter:

 

I was in your shoes almost a year ago. i started researching about mag-fed shotguns a few months before i even knew about the saiga12. then i chanced upon this forum and was just totally amazed about the wealth of info it contains. of course the first things i noticed were the problems about the this particular gun. unlike you however, it intrigued me more and as i read along and learned more and more about the saiga, 2 months later i bought my very own. it didn't come cheap in my country but i knew deep inside, i just got to have one. no regrets here. it still is my pride and joy at the range and dependable ally when shtf.

Edited November 11, 2011 by glennhmd

[gunfun 3,931]

Mine work great. They are great unconverted, and better after. I have to agree with the comparisons to other options for any price point too. Nothing is comparable, and most users have a converted gun for under $900. Show me another competent combat semi for that money. Adkal is the only thing even close right now, and it will be a couple years before there are enough accessories for it to be worth the bother.

 

I have 2. 1 ran every thing outa the box, and the other ran all but the wally winchester. and that was about 85%. one drop in part solved that.

Every time I take it out random strangers want to try. It is just that cool.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

OP does have a point.... Saiga 12s suck

 

Here's some video proof....

[zenman223 460]

Evlblk loves his S12 so much he cant resist the urge to hump it!!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Evlblk loves his S12 so much he cant resist the urge to hump it!!

 

If the OP doesn't like S12s, maybe he should post in the 870 Forum. Oh, I forgot, they are so cool that there isn't one....

 

J,

Just wait until my Form 1 gets back. There will certainly be some Gunhumping Saiga 12 porn posted.

Edited November 11, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[Vulcan 14]

Huh.

 

Well, I own both- an AR and S12. I also own an LR-308 (~AR-10).

 

I've never had an issue after any of my platforms were broken in and set- AR or other. Sure, the Saiga has something my ARs do not- the ability to shoot a multitude of shell types- but once a newer Saiga is properly set up with even the OE gas selector, it fires quite well. Mine did!

 

Or buy an V-plug or auto-plug. Regardless, even the best manufacturers suffer from quality control issues. It happens. If I mention Olympic Arms on an AR site... well, the horror stories come out there too. Technically, the S12 has maybe 20 years of development while Eugene Stoner's AR platform has more than 50! So, I'm not too worried about the S12 at this point. The AR has a had a lot of time to get where it is and the Saiga gets better every year.

 

Bottom line- the Saiga is different because it does shoots different things. It's apples and oranges and I'll take them both.

[ItsAllCreated 59]

Mine has been 100% from day one. It fired the crappy cheap Win Universal shells from the start.

 

I don't know what the OP was thinking coming to a S12 Forum and saying he don't want one. Thats just stupid.

 

And why Im even back in this thread wasting my time is beyond me.

I know better than this vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

 

I guess im just a sucker for a hungry troll lol

Edited November 11, 2011 by ItsAllCreated

[Paulyski 2,227]

People can get a properly built, tested,dependable S-12 for around $1600. Less at times.

$1600 for the most firepower that a person can get without begging his Sheriff & filing paperwork with the ATF & more close range firepower than most stuff people would pick up even after begging the Sheriff & ATF.

 

Sure, there's occasional breakage & logic would dictate that they come on this board to figure it out.

EVERY FIREARM CAN BREAK STUFF THOUGH.

Every single one of them.

 

What you tend to see here is both the worst of the worst & many people who'd call AAA to change a tire trying to play gunsmith, so of course some of them are going to have issues.

You see, the bulk of the AK crowd are cheap bastards thrifty gun owners.

It's the common man's gun, so it's always attracted the thrifty.

How many 18 year old kids have AK's & SKS's for their first rifles compared to ARs? A lot.

 

The AR crowd tends to spend a lot more.

 

 

A properly tuned S-12 puts the AA-12 to shame in so many ways it's ridiculous & seriously, there's only 3 guns in the S-12's league, the AA-12, the USAS-12 & the S-12.

One's unobtainable unless you're Eric Prince, another's a destructive device & the other starts at $560.00 in local gun shops & on the net & anybody 18 years old without a felony can buy it.

 

I like the S-12.

But I suppose that's a given.

[leadsled 40]

Hey, Mike34, if you are near Austin, I'll let you shoot mine. Just PM me.

 

BTW, I'm waiting for my parts to be polished. May be a couple of weeks.

[ashills 2]

Come on man, really? My S12 is the 2011 production year, and was almost the same price as a new Glock. It seems most of the problems came in the older models. What's stopping you from checking the gas ports before you buy?Mine shot low brass right out of the box. Sure, I spent some money to add all the bells, and whistles, but you don't have to go all out to convert it.

 

Yep. My '09 was tip top out of the box as well. After reading the forum for awhile, I was basically PLANNING on getting a problem gun and needing to get it fixed up. Imagine my surprise when I fed it 100 rds of buck and slugs with no problem, and decided to try the cheap stuff - only to have to have it work great! Even Winchester bulk pack works "well enough" .. I do get an occasional FTE with that stuff, but nothing to really complain about. Never had a problem with Federal target loads. Not that I really care, because this is a combat shotgun.. I bought it for buck and slugs. Light loads are just for cheap fun.

 

This whole thing comes down to the mindset of the buyer, really. Some guys just don't like the idea of tinkering with their guns. Others have a driving need to modify the shit out of everything they own.

 

I'm in the later camp.. a good buddy of mine is the exact opposite. When I took a dremel and a grinding wheel to my S12's bolt and carrier - he was practically sweating and shaking like a leaf. Me? Ok, not quite fearless.. but full steam ahead nonetheless.

 

That would be me,

Edited November 11, 2011 by ashills

[scstrain 8]

I get what Mike34 is saying. No one is expecting the the precision of a Belgium made FN FAL here.

 

However, their largest non military market is the U.S.A. I will never understand why the gas block can't be put on correctly over the gas ports as to not block them, and why there is no consistancy with the number of gas ports. Not asking them to reinvent the wheel here, just take care of two problems.

 

It is just shody workmanship. You can like Saiga 12's, and think that they are great, but not have blinders on. The whole "Gas port/block" issue is a joke that could easily be corrected at the factory and it is a bigger joke why people keep making excuses for why it is not.

[Lord Ak-47 49]

No one makes an excuse for it. I think that generally speaking a stock Saiga 12 will fire the ammunition it was meant for. I cant see how anyone could have a problem with that?

[scstrain 8]

No one makes an excuse for it. I think that generally speaking a stock Saiga 12 will fire the ammunition it was meant for. I cant see how anyone could have a problem with that?

 

OK, fine. But is it asking too much that they put the same number of ports in each gun and then not cover half of them with the gas block ?? We are not talking about cosmetics of the gun here, but a critical part of the firearm. Again, not asking them to reinvent the thing...............just take care of two easy to fix problems during assembly.

 

And yes, sounds like another excuse.

[Goose 95]

I could be wrong, but if I'm understand what I've gathered correctly, the gas port issue isn't them being inconsistant. They've changed several times to try to fix the problem, using different numbers of ports and different sizes. The problem is that they don't all sell instantly before the new batch comes out in US shops. Some body might buy an older model that's been on the shelf in Pop's Guns for over a year and wonder why it only has one port, when someone buying it from Conglomo-Guns has three ports and one is bigger than the other two. When ports seem inconsistantly drilled, also take a look at the importer serial number.

[Goose 95]

Also, its an AK. It's design is centered around being produced at low cost and high tolerances. It was made to be easily worked on by the average soldier (in this case the average US citizen lol). When you combine high tolerances with trouble shooting, factor in the sheer volume of guns they make. Than it's unaviodable to end up with a vodka special everynow and then. The beauty of it is that it's fixable, cause it's an AK. It's not an excuse, that's the science of manufacturing process'. The nature of the beast, if you will.

[SDRider 7]

When ports seem inconsistantly drilled, also take a look at the importer serial number.

 

I just got my S12, is there a way to ID the manufacturing date just based on the number?

[Goose 95]

I'm sure there is a way to do it, I mean, it's gotta be on record some where. But I'm the wrong guy to ask how to do it, sorry man. Just hang out for a bit though, some body will have a better answer for ya I'm sure.

 

I do know that the ones that have a checkered rectangle near the back of the reciever on the right side of the gun are more recent than others. That's out dated importer info that got scratched off. By now though I'd bet newer guns with updated stamps are probably circulating.

[scstrain 8]

I could be wrong, but if I'm understand what I've gathered correctly, the gas port issue isn't them being inconsistant. They've changed several times to try to fix the problem, using different numbers of ports and different sizes.

 

OK, now explain why they so many times cover part or all of these ports with the gas block. There is no good reason..............and constant excuses just allow them to continue to put out shody workmanship. I know you can say, that at the end of the day they can sell as many as they make so they do not have to do any better. but that my friend, is a sad state of affair.

[TARE 47]

People can get a properly built, tested,dependable S-12 for around $1600. Less at times.

$1600 for the most firepower that a person can get without begging his Sheriff & filing paperwork with the ATF & more close range firepower than most stuff people would pick up even after begging the Sheriff & ATF.

 

Sure, there's occasional breakage & logic would dictate that they come on this board to figure it out.

EVERY FIREARM CAN BREAK STUFF THOUGH.

Every single one of them.

 

What you tend to see here is both the worst of the worst & many people who'd call AAA to change a tire trying to play gunsmith, so of course some of them are going to have issues.

You see, the bulk of the AK crowd are cheap bastards thrifty gun owners.

It's the common man's gun, so it's always attracted the thrifty.

How many 18 year old kids have AK's & SKS's for their first rifles compared to ARs? A lot.

 

The AR crowd tends to spend a lot more.

 

 

A properly tuned S-12 puts the AA-12 to shame in so many ways it's ridiculous & seriously, there's only 3 guns in the S-12's league, the AA-12, the USAS-12 & the S-12.

One's unobtainable unless you're Eric Prince, another's a destructive device & the other starts at $560.00 in local gun shops & on the net & anybody 18 years old without a felony can buy it.

 

I like the S-12.

But I suppose that's a given.

 

Paully, I haven't any experience with the AA, but thought it was supposed to be better than the S-12, can you explain how the Siaga puts the AA to shame? I'm not second guessing you, only looking for clarification.

[Goose 95]

Go take a manufacturing process class and then explain to me how to lower machining tolerances on an AK with out raising cost or sacrificing the famous reliability that comes from a gun with loose fitting parts. You can't do it with out revamping the entire factory and buyin new machines and having to jack up the cost for a while.

 

Jacking up cost and making a tighter fitting gun defeats the purpose of having an AK. Go buy a Benili if you want reliability from tight manufacturing. Nobody is trying to convert you here, you asked a question, and you got an answer.

[scstrain 8]

Go take a manufacturing process class and then explain to me how to lower machining tolerances on an AK with out raising cost or sacrificing the famous reliability that comes from a gun with loose fitting parts. You can't do it with out revamping the entire factory and buyin new machines and having to jack up the cost for a while.

 

I did not realize that it requires retooling a whole factory to install a gas block consistant. I will say it again, not asking that the weapon be reinvented.

[Goose 95]

There is no way to improve tolerances without having better machines. You can't tighten up the tolerances on just one part and expect the pieces to fit together. If you cut error on just the gasblock, and not the tube or barrel, then you're going to have waste from the pieces that end up not fitting the improved gas blocks. You then have to tighten those two peices as well. But then they might not always fit in the unimproved recievers, rendering them useless part of the time, forcing you to tighten them up as well. So on and so forth until you've created an "AR 12".

 

Do you have any bolt guns or know someone who does? A nice one with tight manufacturing might not allow all ammo to seat proberly in the chamber. Thats because cheaper ammo might not have tolerances as tight as the gun does. If the amount of error allowed in the round is greater than the chamber, than the chamber will be too tight for the round to fit. Thats what you're expecting them to do when you say you want them to make this one piece work perfectly every time.

[scstrain 8]

One of the most highly respected experts in this field that frequents this forum (will not say name because I have not asked if I can quote him) has made comments about what must go on at the factory during assembly. We all scratch our heads in amazment at what gets out the door many times. Not talking about retooling, redesigning, reinventing, here. I do expect loose tolerances....................just not shody workmanship. I know, we can all joke about vodka, etc., but really it should not be a joke. They could do better, and you know it.