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Saiga-12 , I'll Pass


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I just wish these POS Saigas would start showing up used and cheap cause they don't work, I'll buy them all!

How much money were you making at the time you bought the Colt AR for $275?   I was making $3.00 an hour.......about 3 weeks salary to pay for that. The gun today at $1,300 is much more affordable

Saiga - weapons for real men, strong heart.

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Hey. That isn't called for. I think the OP was making a solid decision based on the evidence before him and thanking the people who gave him information. In this case, I think he is missing out, but it is his choice.

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Than do something about man. You know you're right, and I know that I'm right. Just arguing about it on the internet isn't going to solve anything. And you're definatly not going to convert anybody here by complaining about a gas block problem that's easilly fixed wth a narrow file. If that's how you really feel than go to one of the complaint threads and try to start a petition or something to send to the manufacturer. I am perfectly fine with buying a 600 dollar gun and doing a simple fix the make it work 100%. You might not be, that's fine, I won't loose any sleep over the matter. Try to convince me till your face turns blue if you want, the problem you're talking about will still exist. Be proactive with your convictions.

Edited by Goose
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People can get a properly built, tested,dependable S-12 for around $1600. Less at times.

$1600 for the most firepower that a person can get without begging his Sheriff & filing paperwork with the ATF & more close range firepower than most stuff people would pick up even after begging the Sheriff & ATF.

 

Sure, there's occasional breakage & logic would dictate that they come on this board to figure it out.

EVERY FIREARM CAN BREAK STUFF THOUGH.

Every single one of them.

 

What you tend to see here is both the worst of the worst & many people who'd call AAA to change a tire trying to play gunsmith, so of course some of them are going to have issues.

You see, the bulk of the AK crowd are cheap bastards thrifty gun owners.

It's the common man's gun, so it's always attracted the thrifty.

How many 18 year old kids have AK's & SKS's for their first rifles compared to ARs? A lot.

 

The AR crowd tends to spend a lot more.

 

 

A properly tuned S-12 puts the AA-12 to shame in so many ways it's ridiculous & seriously, there's only 3 guns in the S-12's league, the AA-12, the USAS-12 & the S-12.

One's unobtainable unless you're Eric Prince, another's a destructive device & the other starts at $560.00 in local gun shops & on the net & anybody 18 years old without a felony can buy it.

 

I like the S-12.

But I suppose that's a given.

 

Paully, I haven't any experience with the AA, but thought it was supposed to be better than the S-12, can you explain how the Siaga puts the AA to shame? I'm not second guessing you, only looking for clarification.

The AA-12 absolutely can not have a folding stock because from what I understand the carrier travels in it to reduce recoil

The AA-12 is bulky as all hell,

The AA-12 has a ton of specialized moving parts that only fit the AA-12.

 

The S-12 has a faster rate of fire in S/A than the AA does in F/A

The S-12 is lighter which would be appreciated if anybody's ever had to hump a firearm around all day.

The S-12 can have a folding stock

The S-12 can, for the most part be maintained with parts & springs from other AKs

The S-12 has very few parts compared to the AA

 

I would bet the shop that if more than 3 organizations had access to the AA, with all its specialized parts we'd be getting reports of occasional reliability issues just like the S-12.

The only thing the AA-12 has on the S-12 is its lower recoil, but when someone's fighting, recoil doesn't mean as much as adrenaline kicks in.

 

Now all that above, really doesn't mean much, since we can't get them.

However, I've heard rumors that the AAmay come out in a semi-auto version.

If it costs $6,000.00 like the AA does, it's still priced out of reach for the majority of people who will read this.

 

Not all of them mind you, since entering this field I've found that many high-earning people are attracted to the S-12, so I'm certain a few members here would pick one up in a heartbeat. Bounce for one. He wants a 12 that his little girl can handle.

 

But for the common man, the S-12 wins hands down IMHO

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And you're definatly not going to convert anybody here by complaining about a gas block problem that's easilly fixed wth a narrow file.

 

I thought you said it would require retooling the whole factory, now you say it is a simple fix with a file. You have just made my point. It is so simple that it Could and should be done at that point of assembly at the factory.

 

I guess I should look at it in that it helps our economy. Sub par firearms are shipped into our Country. People joke about it and blame it on vodka consumption. A whole new small industry springs up to fix the problems on sub par guns. These knowledgable, talented folks make well deserved money off these problems.

 

OK,...................................It still makes little sense, but I get it now.

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I misunderstood and thought you were talking about getting them to fit perfectly each time. You're right, there could be a quality control guy checking for those problems and tweekings stuff, but we're talking about a Russian company producing AK's to be exported, they're not going to pay someone to take the time to deal with that. Buy a file and move on man, you're makin mountains from mole hills

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I shouldn't have said it like either man I'm sorry. I've been in pain for a couple of weeks now. I did misunderstand what stage of manufacturing we were discussing. And it is still a simple fix, but I don't like arguing with people. Someone hit on this earlier, but the Russian firearm industry is as highly focused on customer service and quality control as much as we are, and we are still trying to feed lower powered shells through their guns. And yes it does give gun smiths state side a chance to get some more business. I see where we weren't on the same page, but I still stand by the spirit of what I was saying, I apologize for the snaps though.

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Come on man, really? My S12 is the 2011 production year, and was almost the same price as a new Glock. It seems most of the problems came in the older models. What's stopping you from checking the gas ports before you buy?Mine shot low brass right out of the box. Sure, I spent some money to add all the bells, and whistles, but you don't have to go all out to convert it.

 

Yep. My '09 was tip top out of the box as well. After reading the forum for awhile, I was basically PLANNING on getting a problem gun and needing to get it fixed up. Imagine my surprise when I fed it 100 rds of buck and slugs with no problem, and decided to try the cheap stuff - only to have to have it work great! Even Winchester bulk pack works "well enough" .. I do get an occasional FTE with that stuff, but nothing to really complain about. Never had a problem with Federal target loads. Not that I really care, because this is a combat shotgun.. I bought it for buck and slugs. Light loads are just for cheap fun.

 

This whole thing comes down to the mindset of the buyer, really. Some guys just don't like the idea of tinkering with their guns. Others have a driving need to modify the shit out of everything they own.

 

I'm in the later camp.. a good buddy of mine is the exact opposite. When I took a dremel and a grinding wheel to my S12's bolt and carrier - he was practically sweating and shaking like a leaf. Me? Ok, not quite fearless.. but full steam ahead nonetheless.

 

That would be me,

I may suffer from this disorder as well....

 

post-22401-0-78087600-1321060570_thumb.jpg

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I KIND of feel his pain. In general, I do think its lame to buy a gun (or anything for that matter) knowing work is going to have to go into it. Then again there is just something about mag fed shotguns...which is why I got mine.

 

but if the KSG came out first I probably would have gone with it - then again its almost double the price so maybe not.

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Just picked up an S12 today, ran wally world ammo (70 to 80 rounds). 5 round OEM mag.

After that 100 rounds no trouble,

OL came out and shot a few mags, she is hooked as well. (that is the best part of all)

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I KIND of feel his pain. In general, I do think its lame to buy a gun (or anything for that matter) knowing work is going to have to go into it. Then again there is just something about mag fed shotguns...which is why I got mine.

 

but if the KSG came out first I probably would have gone with it - then again its almost double the price so maybe not.

Lame? I thought tearing it apart and working on it was the best part of Saiga 12 ownership. The platform offers a challenge and I crave that. the newer models that run better don't sound like much fun to me....

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Nope. Shooting a gun that works is the best part.

 

It is lame that they don't all work out of the box. It is also lame that ruger 10/22's have a fool proof reputation and stovepipe constantly.

 

If some one else was offering a comparable gun for comparable cost, that just worked every time without a hassle, Saiga would lose market share. Remember every one here is drooling over Veprs and the main difference is quality control and a self regulating gas block, and a magwell. Those are 3 things that should be on the saiga in the first place.

 

Pauly-- I would add one thing to the list you made, which sounds otherwise perfect. AA is stainless Saiga is not. If you are using the gun over or around salt water that's all the difference in the world. It is for sure the only reason I haven't bought a Saiga for my father. I think that feature is a real selling point. (In fact no one else has a fully stainless shotgun on the market any more. The stainless marine models made now are all mix'n'match stainless blued, nickel and aluminum. Salt water highlights everything in orange pretty quickly.)

 

They tout the high tech recoil management system. The long form recoil track may be a real advantage, but I can't help but wonder how much less recoil it would have than a saiga with some porting or a compensator and some of the recoil stock setups out there+ a brick taped to the back to make up the rest of the 3#+ weight discrepancy. I think the real recoil system that relies on is low tech. "be really heavy". The funny thing is that the current AA is supposed to be significantly lightened from previous versions.

 

The other comparison that seems worth while is an S-17 style saiga. I don't know of any other combat shotgun that can be similarly sized to a MP5. Since shotguns are for close work around buildings and entry, the AA 12 is too long to do its main job.

Edited by GunFun
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Was the S12 ever really designed to shoot low powered bird shot in the 1st place (like the stuff from wally world that people buy solely for they reason that its the cheapest sh!t they can find)?

 

I never heard of a off the shelf S12 not functioning 100% with defense loads like Buck & Slug's (not saying it hasnt ever happened, but I never heard of it if it has)

 

Point being...

If you want to shoot the cheapest shit possible, OK then you "may" need to do some modifications (I say may cause mine has always shot even the cheapest of cheap sh!t).

But if you're gonna man-up and put some real loads in your S12, then you're probably not going to have any problems with your S12's reliability.

 

I keep 3" 00Buck in my S12 for HD and I don't have any worries that It'll empty multiple mags in a hurry if I want it to.

Edited by ItsAllCreated
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It may be worth it to you folks and that is all that really matters isn't it ?

Yes. Yes it is.

 

I would like to thank everyone here for the great forum and sharing their knowledge and helping me decide.

You're welcome. OK, buh bye.

Edited by DogMan
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Not to be too sarcastic, but what's the average price of a semi-auto shotgun? You know, like a Mossberg or a Remington 1100, etc. Close to or greater than the cost of an unmodified S12. Last time I checked Cabela's online prices was in the neighborhood of $750 for a semiauto.

 

By my count, I can get the shotgun I want for under $1000 ($700 for the S12, and ~$200 for the Autoplug and glassbolt, plus WOOD stocks), *including* magazines. A benelli M4 is $1600, minimum. That's a lot of ammo and a couple MD20 drums!

 

Or I could just throw $1600 at Tromix, but that's a different discussion. I'll save that for when I build my shorty.

Edited by Scott Kenny
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I really do like these Saiga-12's. Not trying to reopen the can of worms but I will never understand why they can't be uniform with the number of gas ports, the angle and diameter of them, and why the gas block can't be put on without covering some or all of them.

 

Even if they all had the wrong number, wrong angle, and wrong diameter they would at least be uniform, and you would know what to expect.

 

And..............if they are set up to shoot only magnums (Like they do in Russia) then why do some have 4 ports allowing to much gas, thus battering the gun with magnum loads.

 

Also, if they are set up to shoot only magnums, why is there any other setting on the gun ??

 

It is a shame that they seem to just not give a darn, and those that tell the truth around here get labeled as trolls or worse.

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I really do like these Saiga-12's. Not trying to reopen the can of worms but I will never understand why they can't be uniform with the number of gas ports, the angle and diameter of them, and why the gas block can't be put on without covering some or all of them.

 

Even if they all had the wrong number, wrong angle, and wrong diameter they would at least be uniform, and you would know what to expect.

 

And..............if they are set up to shoot only magnums (Like they do in Russia) then why do some have 4 ports allowing to much gas, thus battering the gun with magnum loads.

 

Also, if they are set up to shoot only magnums, why is there any other setting on the gun ??

 

It is a shame that they seem to just not give a darn, and those that tell the truth around here get labeled as trolls or worse.

Hoping not to go into the name calling thing for responding...but

 

The Russian paradigm has never been about quality, and never will

It is all about quantity, their firearms and equipment are considered to be expendable

Many of the firearms are not intended to be maintained or repaired, just discarded when they become unserviceable.

The military versions are of quite better manufacture than export products, are are held to a higher standard.

Just the facts, when the manufacturing processes are stampings and rivets, with pins as the final assembly being used.

Its for mass production at the lowest possible cost.

 

Communism's (gift to the world) was the AK, Millions upon Millions have be dispersed around the world, mostly to be used by completely untrained, uneducated soldiers in most inhospitable environments.

Its design allows function under those circumstances, and the cost to equip such forces was small.

 

In my younger days, I have seen thousands of them loaded into dump trucks with front loaders, and then destroyed.

I am not bashing the gun it does exactly what it was built to do.

Over the last few years I have built more S-12s than I can count, and have seen the spectrum of ran perfect as is ,to every thing under the sun was wrong.

Thats just the way it is....if one has an issue, just fix it and go on.

This gun, like many others has a loyal following, if its the gun you want, get one and deal with whatever comes with it

Jim

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I really do like these Saiga-12's. Not trying to reopen the can of worms but I will never understand why they can't be uniform with the number of gas ports, the angle and diameter of them, and why the gas block can't be put on without covering some or all of them.

 

Even if they all had the wrong number, wrong angle, and wrong diameter they would at least be uniform, and you would know what to expect.

 

And..............if they are set up to shoot only magnums (Like they do in Russia) then why do some have 4 ports allowing to much gas, thus battering the gun with magnum loads.

 

Also, if they are set up to shoot only magnums, why is there any other setting on the gun ??

 

It is a shame that they seem to just not give a darn, and those that tell the truth around here get labeled as trolls or worse.

It's really quite simple. They don't give a damn because they have no competition. Why should they give a damn when the things still sell like hot cakes? The fixes are simple, we take care of the, or can get them warranted fixed. For the price there is no comparison. By the time you turn a mossy 500 into a combat shot gun you've still spent 600 min. but it can't accept high capacity mags for any price can it?

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I really do like these Saiga-12's. Not trying to reopen the can of worms but I will never understand why they can't be uniform with the number of gas ports, the angle and diameter of them, and why the gas block can't be put on without covering some or all of them.

 

Even if they all had the wrong number, wrong angle, and wrong diameter they would at least be uniform, and you would know what to expect.

 

And..............if they are set up to shoot only magnums (Like they do in Russia) then why do some have 4 ports allowing to much gas, thus battering the gun with magnum loads.

 

Also, if they are set up to shoot only magnums, why is there any other setting on the gun ??

 

It is a shame that they seem to just not give a darn, and those that tell the truth around here get labeled as trolls or worse.

It's really quite simple. They don't give a damn because they have no competition. Why should they give a damn when the things still sell like hot cakes? The fixes are simple, we take care of the, or can get them warranted fixed. For the price there is no comparison. By the time you turn a mossy 500 into a combat shot gun you've still spent 600 min. but it can't accept high capacity mags for any price can it?

 

I will try to go with the flow. Like I said, I really do think that the Saiga-12 is a fascinating shotgun.

 

A couple of questions:

 

Is it true that the current production have extended barrel hoods ? This seems like a great idea. And.........if you get a gun with gas port issues and they need to be drilled on is it true that this can flake off the chrome linning and cause problems down the road. Is this Saiga -12 "Urban Lengend" or a valid concern ?

 

I think that you can all see that I am becoming a convert.

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My opinion is that the majority of S12s do not need the ports drilled. My gun was a perfect candidate for it at one time but it is flawless with no drilling. There are definatly guns that do need port work, and that is the majority of what you will read here because people come here to get info when there guns don't work. I would be willing to bet that if the OP bought one it would work just fine after a few range trips and maybe some polishing. Drilling will get you there for sure, but it's not like every gun needs drilling or extensive work out of the box. Just buy one, you will not be disappointed. If you are, they are easy to sell. My favorite thing about this gun is that generally speaking, no two are alike. Everyone can do what they want with their gun, and I like that.

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A couple of questions:

 

Is it true that the current production have extended barrel hoods ? This seems like a great idea. And.........if you get a gun with gas port issues and they need to be drilled on is it true that this can flake off the chrome linning and cause problems down the road.

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A couple of questions:

 

Is it true that the current production have extended barrel hoods ? This seems like a great idea. And.........if you get a gun with gas port issues and they need to be drilled on is it true that this can flake off the chrome linning and cause problems down the road.

 

 

My open saigas had 72 ports in the barrel, never saw any failures in the chrome

In fact the chrome was about as good as any I have seen

Jim

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