jonathon 0 Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Been a few years since I've posted here, nice that my old user name still works! Anyways, I've been toying with the idea of a Saiga 223. I don't stock up on 7.62x39 ammunition any more and only have 1 AK anyways. I have more .223 than I care to admit and prefer to keep that on hand since I like my AR's a little more anyways That said, I really want a 223 AK pattern rifle and I like the idea of the Saiga. I have no issues converting one; I have done an S-12. Never installed a bullet guide, but there's a first for everything I suppose. Anyways, after much searching I've decided that if I go through with this, I want to run the Bulgarian Circle 10 5.56 mags. I want military mags and it seems like these might be the best choice for reliability. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/43248-223-saiga-conversion-mag-choice/ This thread seems to indicate that installing a bullet guide and grinding down the interdiction tab is all that's needed to run them reliably. Is this a common experience? I really appreciate the input of all. Edited November 10, 2011 by jonathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Ive never had to do any grinding like that. you will need to install a bullet guide. heres mine: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Not worried about installing the bullet guide, I have a drill press so it shouldn't be a big deal at all. Good to know.. we shall see how well it fits. I've got a circle 10 on the way since I had to order a few parts anyways. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dowork1021 64 Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Go for it. I love mine. I cant give you any info on mags because I went with the MSA AR adapter but the 223 is extremely fun to shoot and pretty accurate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I've found a few places that have them cheap.. going to be calling around to see if I can verify that the rifles available now have dimpled magazine wells. Would be nice to find a 20" with dimples..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) Found one locally for a semi-reasonable price.. $400 even, no sales tax since it was in Oregon. It's a legion import with dimples. Test sheet says 135mm group at 100m.. not terrible I guess. What's silly is a 7.62 mag fits better than the factory 223 mag.. I hope the Bulgy Circle 10's fit this good. Edited November 12, 2011 by jonathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 My first Saiga was a .223. Was planning to get an AK and finally saved up the money, well, timing's everything and when I had the money, Obama got elected, and you could NOT find an AK anywhere! Anyhow, a local gunshop had three Saiga .223s left on the shelf @ $349 each. I bought one...and haven't looked back!! The most fun you will ever have going broke!! LOL Now I own the origional 223, then came a 7.62x 39, then my Baby..the .308. Jump on one and enjoy! P.S. Nothing to the bullet guides, heck, you can even make your own! And I did one with a drillpress and one with a handheld drill. The main thing is to go slow...both in the drilling and the tapping! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 .223 Saiga is on Grumpy's list. I am busy trying to relocate now, but as soon as I get settled... I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THEM! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 You could skip the BG if you relied totally on SGM magazines, aaaand... Since you have plenty of AR mags already, with NO BG you can run these: Or these USGI magazines: (cell phone pics- sorry) This will take an end mill, or strong dremel fu. In my family, our dremel fu is strong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I've seen the SGM mags and honestly, I don't trust them like I do the Bulgy polymer mags which are military grade. Bullet guide is easier than AR mag conversion and more authentic too In the end.. it's all preferences with no real benefit I guess. I'm hoping the fact that 7.62x39 AK mags lock in perfectly that the .223 mags will fit perfect. I might try a couple Galil steels just for kicks..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) Shot it today.. shoots as good as they claimed, I averaged about a 5" 10 shot group at 100 yards with Tulammo 62gr FMJ. This ammo did not seem very consistent in recoil. I shot a box of PMC Bronce 55gr FMJ and the recoil and ejection was much more consistent and at about 2 o'clock versus the Tulammo which was all over the place. Brass didn't seem too damaged either. I'm sure the rifle can do much better. The craptastic trigger sure didn't help, and I was having trouble seeing the sights since I was shooting after dark and the range lighting while really good, wasn't ideal. So far I'm loving it. Very little recoil, though I can't wait to convert it. Edited November 14, 2011 by jonathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SJP 0 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 As long as you are 922 compliant you can use any high cap mag made in USA.Surefire is expensive and that is why most people choose to convert their Sagas and put in a bullet guide. Use a USA made stock and pistol grip and fore-end with a USA made high cap mag and you are 922 compliant. I did all of this except the bullet guide and the gas piston and am still legal. This applies to any Saiga with a one piece receiver/trunion. If the trunion is separate you will need to do a total conversion. This is what makes the 223 so popular, no separate trunion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 When say one piece receiver and trunion, do you mean it's because the trunion is the serialized part? I'm doing a full conversion, but I need to do a little extra work since I'm using a Romanian wire folder and the original hand guard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) Where do you live in WA? I'm in the Kitsap area. Let me know if you are nearby and maybe I can meet you at the range one day and we can swap mags (man that sounds wrong). I have only Galil steels but have been looking to try some Circle 10s or even surplus '74 mags if you have any. I bought mine because I wanted an AK-74 but really wasn't interested in shooting 5.45x39, and I already have too many 7.62x39 rifles. Plus, there is a ton of selection to choose from for .223, from cheap surplus to match grade high-dollar stuff. I will probably have an AR some day (then again, maybe not), so I thought I might as well get started with .223 now. Almost done with the total AK-74 conversion. Hope to have my Bulgarian gas block, sight block/brake, and retainer transplanted before Thanksgiving to bring down to the family turkey shootout in Oregon. Also I have no idea what he means about the "one piece receiver/trunnion" as .223 Saigas are made like any other stamped AK. Edited November 17, 2011 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I'm down in the dirty south of Washington... aka Vancouver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I'm doing a full conversion, but I need to do a little extra work since I'm using a Romanian wire folder and the original hand guard. If I'm not mistaken, you will need to have a US pistol grip, a US FCG (3 parts), then a US gas piston. If you use US mags (3 parts), you can substitute from the previous items. I did the wire folder, US PG, US FCG, and a US hand-guard. I can run foreign mags. Trust no one. Do your homework to be sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Also I have no idea what he means about the "one piece receiver/trunnion" as .223 Saigas are made like any other stamped AK. I think he is talking about the US stocks that fit a non-converted rifle and have a PG built in. That is why that user talks about having to use US hi cap mags without converting. It isn't a one piece receiver/trunnion, but a one piece stock and PG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I've got all the 922 basis covered; gas piston, fire control group, pistol grip. Should give me the most flexibility to run whatever I want for furniture. G2 is going in the garbage can where it belongs after the holidays when I get a Red Star trigger... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Mostly there... the Galil mag is just for looks since the bullet guide is not installed yet. I need to get some hole plugs, seems I misplaced mine. I also need to pain the bottom of the receiver. The trigger guard from CSS is really nice and I'm very impressed with it. I'm not so happy with the Tapco piston, not nearly as nice as the original in my opinion. I ran into a snafu with the bullet guide install. Hole was drilled fine, tap seemed to go smoothly(first time for me), but I ended up with no threads at all. The screw is a 6-32 and I'm hoping the hole is small enough that I can bump it up to an 8-32 screw and tap the hole for 8-32. Since I'm doing that I figure for extra measure I'll get a longer screw and use a nut to further lock the screw to the trunion. This with red lock tight should make it so it doesn't move at all. It looks like the bullet guide has more than enough room for an 8-32 screw. Edited November 19, 2011 by jonathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Mostly there... the Galil mag is just for looks since the bullet guide is not installed yet. I need to get some hole plugs, seems I misplaced mine. I also need to pain the bottom of the receiver. The trigger guard from CSS is really nice and I'm very impressed with it. I'm not so happy with the Tapco piston, not nearly as nice as the original in my opinion. I ran into a snafu with the bullet guide install. Hole was drilled fine, tap seemed to go smoothly(first time for me), but I ended up with no threads at all. The screw is a 6-32 and I'm hoping the hole is small enough that I can bump it up to an 8-32 screw and tap the hole for 8-32. Since I'm doing that I figure for extra measure I'll get a longer screw and use a nut to further lock the screw to the trunion. This with red lock tight should make it so it doesn't move at all. It looks like the bullet guide has more than enough room for an 8-32 screw. Here is my version The galil mag looks great Edited November 19, 2011 by Jetmech Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) Painted the bottom of the receiver today... Duplicolor Low Gloss Black Engine Enamel for the win! Perfect match... I also got my trunion tapped for an 8-32. Home Depot only had shitty screws so I only bought one to test fit and it worked beautiful. Going to the bolt store tomorrow to see if I can pick up a nicer bolt. Also going to see if they can get me an allen head bolt for the handguard. I hate slots. Edited November 21, 2011 by jonathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonathon 0 Posted November 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 I got the Bulgy 10 mag today. Needed to remove the interdiction tab in the mag well for it to fit as well as take a little material off the catch. Now it snaps in perfectly. Galil mag doesn't feel any looser than it did before and it functioned prior to these mods.. I'll check it again at the range on Friday but so far I'm calling this one a success. The Bulgy mag is definitely worth the effort, very nicely made magazine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Mine runs with Circle 10s exclusively. Had to file the mags a tad, but it was easy. I don't have the AR adapter. If I did, I understand you don't have to mod the bulgy mags, cuz the front trunnion gets trimmed down a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Mine runs with Circle 10s exclusively. Had to file the mags a tad, but it was easy. I don't have the AR adapter. If I did, I understand you don't have to mod the bulgy mags, cuz the front trunnion gets trimmed down a bit. That is correct. Conversely, steel galil magazines tend to wobble a bit more since the magwell needs opened up a little, and the locking tabs get material removed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Venia 249 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I had to get a .223 as well, especially at 299.99+shipping I couldn't say no anymore. I'll add this one to my converted 7.62x39 I just completed. These rifles are an addiction. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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