Saiga 12 vs MKA-1919?

[topmaul 42]

Okay you guys convinced me I'm going to buy one.

[nicklebon 27]

Saiga.. It's Russian and metal... not Turkish and plastic..

 

I'm going to guess this sarcasm but just in case ... Didn't this plastic vs steel thing get beat to death with Glocks 20 years ago?

 

That said ... IF I could have only one gun and it had to be a Saiga or an Akdal today I'd pick a Saiga because that give me high-cap mags. Once hi-caps are available for the MKA I'd go with the Akdal. As it is I have both and I am keeping them.

[BobAsh 582]

I have designed and built two prototypes of AR platformed shotguns in the past three years both ran well and the only component up in the air was the mags.

And I know of several others that have done similar projects.

 

So USA made guns have and do exist in this configuration.

 

But....and its a BIG but....people are concerned as to what ATF would decide to do, in regard to it.

 

Given that two box fed guns are now approved may give rise to American company's bringing them out.

 

Several years ago at Shot show, CMMG had one, they would not let you touch it....but it was hanging on the wall.

 

Its not lack of innovation that has prevented it from coming about, its uncertainty on a more political basis.

If and when a more favorable political environment comes about, an AR based shotgun will as well.

jim

 

 

Actually I gotta disagree with this.

 

Sure, we've designed one (several versions, actually) as well, it's not rocket science. The problem is trying to compete price-wise with the Izhmash factory or the Turks.

 

To build a gun for under $1000 retail? Tough task. You are correct that the mag is the sticking point, just as it is with all gun design and most Tromix unusual builds came about because of serendipitous mag fitment.

[james lambert 3,059]

I have designed and built two prototypes of AR platformed shotguns in the past three years both ran well and the only component up in the air was the mags.

And I know of several others that have done similar projects.

 

So USA made guns have and do exist in this configuration.

 

But....and its a BIG but....people are concerned as to what ATF would decide to do, in regard to it.

 

Given that two box fed guns are now approved may give rise to American company's bringing them out.

 

Several years ago at Shot show, CMMG had one, they would not let you touch it....but it was hanging on the wall.

 

Its not lack of innovation that has prevented it from coming about, its uncertainty on a more political basis.

If and when a more favorable political environment comes about, an AR based shotgun will as well.

jim

 

 

Actually I gotta disagree with this.

 

Sure, we've designed one (several versions, actually) as well, it's not rocket science. The problem is trying to compete price-wise with the Izhmash factory or the Turks.

 

To build a gun for under $1000 retail? Tough task. You are correct that the mag is the sticking point, just as it is with all gun design and most Tromix unusual builds came about because of serendipitous mag fitment.

Hi Bob

 

You are correct about the ability to compete with a price point comparable to what the imports can meet, just about cant do that here.

And then add eleven percent excise tax on that....gets ugly fast.

 

The gun I designed it very top shelf, retail would have to be well over 2k plus the taxes.

But the flip side is lots of people have in excess of 3k invested in Saigas .

Tromix has done well with high end conversions, as well as several other companies.

So there is some limited clientele for arms of this nature and price range.

Whether or not something new comes about, will remain to be seen.

But for now, we at least have two viable platforms to work with.

Best Regards

Jim

[topmaul 42]

I think a healthy competition between both platforms would be good for both. The ADKAL might force the price of the Saiga to come down and quality to go up let's hope for the best.

[RRice 34]

I have designed and built two prototypes of AR platformed shotguns in the past three years both ran well and the only component up in the air was the mags.

And I know of several others that have done similar projects.

 

So USA made guns have and do exist in this configuration.

 

But....and its a BIG but....people are concerned as to what ATF would decide to do, in regard to it.

 

Given that two box fed guns are now approved may give rise to American company's bringing them out.

 

Several years ago at Shot show, CMMG had one, they would not let you touch it....but it was hanging on the wall.

 

Its not lack of innovation that has prevented it from coming about, its uncertainty on a more political basis.

If and when a more favorable political environment comes about, an AR based shotgun will as well.

jim

 

 

Actually I gotta disagree with this.

 

Sure, we've designed one (several versions, actually) as well, it's not rocket science. The problem is trying to compete price-wise with the Izhmash factory or the Turks.

 

To build a gun for under $1000 retail? Tough task. You are correct that the mag is the sticking point, just as it is with all gun design and most Tromix unusual builds came about because of serendipitous mag fitment.

 

I can imagine trying to compete against them would be a tall order considering you would essentially be starting from scratch and well Ismash....not so much.

 

That said,I think the winning combo for this gun will be the Turk upper and a US made lower that takes common AR parts(hopefully fire control groups too)That would be a game changer.

 

I cant speculate as to which is "better" since that is subjective.However,if the Akdal is reliable it beats an out of the box S12 on ergonomics alone.Hell,it beats most modified S12's on ergonomics.To me the most important part is going to be reliability.I will look over LRBHO,drop free mags and a top rail all day long if the gun isn't reliable and my S12's have proven to be extremely reliable.

 

Has anyone put a high round count through these guns?Jasper said earlier he had 300 rounds through his(this isn't a stab at you Jasper)but it isnt uncommon for me to run 300-500 rounds through one of my S12's in a single outing.

[Jasper 19]

I have designed and built two prototypes of AR platformed shotguns in the past three years both ran well and the only component up in the air was the mags.

And I know of several others that have done similar projects.

 

So USA made guns have and do exist in this configuration.

 

But....and its a BIG but....people are concerned as to what ATF would decide to do, in regard to it.

 

Given that two box fed guns are now approved may give rise to American company's bringing them out.

 

Several years ago at Shot show, CMMG had one, they would not let you touch it....but it was hanging on the wall.

 

Its not lack of innovation that has prevented it from coming about, its uncertainty on a more political basis.

If and when a more favorable political environment comes about, an AR based shotgun will as well.

jim

 

 

Actually I gotta disagree with this.

 

Sure, we've designed one (several versions, actually) as well, it's not rocket science. The problem is trying to compete price-wise with the Izhmash factory or the Turks.

 

To build a gun for under $1000 retail? Tough task. You are correct that the mag is the sticking point, just as it is with all gun design and most Tromix unusual builds came about because of serendipitous mag fitment.

 

I can imagine trying to compete against them would be a tall order considering you would essentially be starting from scratch and well Ismash....not so much.

 

That said,I think the winning combo for this gun will be the Turk upper and a US made lower that takes common AR parts(hopefully fire control groups too)That would be a game changer.

 

I cant speculate as to which is "better" since that is subjective.However,if the Akdal is reliable it beats an out of the box S12 on ergonomics alone.Hell,it beats most modified S12's on ergonomics.To me the most important part is going to be reliability.I will look over LRBHO,drop free mags and a top rail all day long if the gun isn't reliable and my S12's have proven to be extremely reliable.

 

Has anyone put a high round count through these guns?Jasper said earlier he had 300 rounds through his(this isn't a stab at you Jasper)but it isnt uncommon for me to run 300-500 rounds through one of my S12's in a single outing.

 

No offense taken. I just don't see putting a lot more ammo thru it yet untill I get at least the conversion parts from Firebird. I can practice some then without high caps. That will even help force to practice mag changes. I'm not a rich dude and don't reload shot shells.

For a club shooter like me I don't anticipate shooting over 2K shells from April thru October, if I end up using more it would suprise me. I wish I had the time and $$ but that powerball thing just hasn't worked out. Yet.

[RRice 34]

I have designed and built two prototypes of AR platformed shotguns in the past three years both ran well and the only component up in the air was the mags.

And I know of several others that have done similar projects.

 

So USA made guns have and do exist in this configuration.

 

But....and its a BIG but....people are concerned as to what ATF would decide to do, in regard to it.

 

Given that two box fed guns are now approved may give rise to American company's bringing them out.

 

Several years ago at Shot show, CMMG had one, they would not let you touch it....but it was hanging on the wall.

 

Its not lack of innovation that has prevented it from coming about, its uncertainty on a more political basis.

If and when a more favorable political environment comes about, an AR based shotgun will as well.

jim

 

 

Actually I gotta disagree with this.

 

Sure, we've designed one (several versions, actually) as well, it's not rocket science. The problem is trying to compete price-wise with the Izhmash factory or the Turks.

 

To build a gun for under $1000 retail? Tough task. You are correct that the mag is the sticking point, just as it is with all gun design and most Tromix unusual builds came about because of serendipitous mag fitment.

 

I can imagine trying to compete against them would be a tall order considering you would essentially be starting from scratch and well Ismash....not so much.

 

That said,I think the winning combo for this gun will be the Turk upper and a US made lower that takes common AR parts(hopefully fire control groups too)That would be a game changer.

 

I cant speculate as to which is "better" since that is subjective.However,if the Akdal is reliable it beats an out of the box S12 on ergonomics alone.Hell,it beats most modified S12's on ergonomics.To me the most important part is going to be reliability.I will look over LRBHO,drop free mags and a top rail all day long if the gun isn't reliable and my S12's have proven to be extremely reliable.

 

Has anyone put a high round count through these guns?Jasper said earlier he had 300 rounds through his(this isn't a stab at you Jasper)but it isnt uncommon for me to run 300-500 rounds through one of my S12's in a single outing.

 

No offense taken. I just don't see putting a lot more ammo thru it yet untill I get at least the conversion parts from Firebird. I can practice some then without high caps. That will even help force to practice mag changes. I'm not a rich dude and don't reload shot shells.

For a club shooter like me I don't anticipate shooting over 2K shells from April thru October, if I end up using more it would suprise me. I wish I had the time and $$ but that powerball thing just hasn't worked out. Yet.

 

 

Don't get me wrong,I'm not a guy that has tons of money to spend on ammo.The shotguns are the cheapest to shoot guns I own.I bought some affordable steel knock down plates from a seller on ebay,made some stands and shoot steel with cheap walmart Federal #7.5.The range I shoot at allows me to run and gun and shoot the steel.This is also good practice for the few times a year I do 3-gun.

 

That is why the most important part for me on the Akdal is it needs to be reliable because I won't be interested in it regardless of ego's if it doesn't run well.

Edited November 24, 2011 by RRice

[MH12194 7]

Tony, That was some funny shit. "one hand to hold the gun and the other to hold the beer!" But you underestimate the power of the redneck.

 

I can only hope the Akdal gets more popular. Maybe it will bring down the prices of Saiga 12's. The akdal is attractive. But it doesn't have a track record like the S12 does. It seems it's up to the aftermarket to make it that tacticool AR 12 gauge.

 

To say one is better than the other is up in the air at the moment. One of the reasons I haven't run out and bought an akdal. It's too early to tell.

 

I think more parts made for the akdal the better. I can't wait to see a new lower and handguard for it. A lower that would take all the AR goodies on the market like grips and stock tubes would be a real "winning factor" to the akdal. Because today it seems the more crap you can bolt on to the gun the more popular it is. Don't get me wrong. I love all the goodies we can stick on our guns. And I feel it boosts the free market. Who doesn't like options?

 

The biggest issue seems to be magazines. People want more than 5 rounds of bang bang. A drum or bigger stick mags will help it's sales as well.

 

For now Saiga wins. It has more aftermarket parts and it's been proven. Till we see a true side by side fully modded Akdal Vs. S12 run and gun shoot off. There wont be a clear winner, or draw, or whatever.

[RRice 34]

I think the Saiga's "track record" isn't a selling point.It seems that for every 1 person I run into that has good things to say about the S12(either in person or on other forums)there are 5 that say all they have ever seen of them is that they constantly have failures.

 

Either way,I don't see these driving the price of the S12 down.Once these Akdals take off(assuming they do for previously mentioned reasons)I see the opposite happening.It will drive the price of the Akdal up having little effect on the S12 price.

 

I too want to see these guns have a solid following because I really like the idea of a shotgun with AR ergos,LRBHO and drop free mags.For now,I will wait but time will tell.

[topmaul 42]

In the Saiga ADKAL shoot off both guns need to be stock or set up pretty much the same.

 

Or how is this give two roughly equally skilled shooters $1000 and have them both put together a Shotgun and shoot it in a match?

[Iceberg 1]

The Turks make good guns, however I would rather have a Russian AK variant in 12 GA than an oversized AR looking shotgun. Plastic lowers on ARs have never been very popular, maybe the Turks can sell us on it.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Iceberg

[james lambert 3,059]

The real test would be take two new guns never out of the box.

Run a case of ammo through each, see which one has the fewest issues.

Jim

[RRice 34]

I agree with Jim.What I would like to see is a S12 with all the normal reliability mods(basic conversion and MD/Gunfixr plug)No unnecessary stuff like puck,buffer etc. put up against an Akdal with the basic reliability mods(that shim Tromix makes)and someone get several bricks of Federal 7.5 and Remington 7.5 and start shooting and record the failures.

 

We all know what the common failures are on S12's and what the typical brands of ammo are they dont like.I would like to see someone with an Akdal shoot the hell out of it and tell us what we can expect from it.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

You would need to take ten of each gun and run the test. If you just did one, you could end up with an AKDAL that ran perfect and a Saiga that did not, or vise versa.

[RRice 34]

Are you claiming that the russians have consistency and qc problems?

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Yes

[Scott Kenny 144]

Saiga.. It's Russian and metal... not Turkish and plastic..

Turkish-made does not equal bad gun. As I understand it, there's pretty much an entire old-tooling H&K factory in Turkey, made when H&K bought new machines.

 

I still lean towards the Saiga, but I'd love a more-metal shotgun with AR ergonomics.

[gunfun 3,931]

If instead of Turkish partial plastic, it were plastic and made by an Austrian company that comes to mind, people would have no problem with that.

 

I would be surprised if we didn't see newsclips of people with their genitals caught in the action after they got too excited.

 

So the issue is whether the plastic on this gun fails or offers some real disadvantage, or whether people just don't like the idea.

[Jasper 19]

If instead of Turkish partial plastic, it were plastic and made by an Austrian company that comes to mind, people would have no problem with that.

 

I would be surprised if we didn't see newsclips of people with their genitals caught in the action after they got too excited.

 

So the issue is whether the plastic on this gun fails or offers some real disadvantage, or whether people just don't like the idea.

 

Sadly what a lot of it is, some folks who drive a chevy think that fords suck even if the rustang cobra just left them in a ditch. Its a mindset that isnt open to anything not familiar or what daddy told them. Missed opportunities but there is always hope to at least get people to try something new. I remember seeing a S12 at a local funshow a decade or more ago and turning my nose up at it. Live and hopefully learn to have an open mind.

[gregomega 929]

If instead of Turkish partial plastic, it were plastic and made by an Austrian company that comes to mind, people would have no problem with that.

 

I would be surprised if we didn't see newsclips of people with their genitals caught in the action after they got too excited.

 

So the issue is whether the plastic on this gun fails or offers some real disadvantage, or whether people just don't like the idea.

 

Sadly what a lot of it is, some folks who drive a chevy think that fords suck even if the rustang cobra just left them in a ditch. Its a mindset that isnt open to anything not familiar or what daddy told them. Missed opportunities but there is always hope to at least get people to try something new. I remember seeing a S12 at a local funshow a decade or more ago and turning my nose up at it. Live and hopefully learn to have an open mind.

 

Nope, wrong again. In my case anyway. My dad and grandpa used to drive Chevys, and they never said one brand or another sucks. . I drive a ford, not because of the name but because my last one which was a 68 ran beautifully. So having handled both the S12 and Mka 1919, its the s12 all day long. Granted the 1919 has it's advantages, the better platform IMO is the s12

[Jasper 19]

If instead of Turkish partial plastic, it were plastic and made by an Austrian company that comes to mind, people would have no problem with that.

 

I would be surprised if we didn't see newsclips of people with their genitals caught in the action after they got too excited.

 

So the issue is whether the plastic on this gun fails or offers some real disadvantage, or whether people just don't like the idea.

 

Sadly what a lot of it is, some folks who drive a chevy think that fords suck even if the rustang cobra just left them in a ditch. Its a mindset that isnt open to anything not familiar or what daddy told them. Missed opportunities but there is always hope to at least get people to try something new. I remember seeing a S12 at a local funshow a decade or more ago and turning my nose up at it. Live and hopefully learn to have an open mind.

 

Nope, wrong again. In my case anyway. My dad and grandpa used to drive Chevys, and they never said one brand or another sucks. . I drive a ford, not because of the name but because my last one which was a 68 ran beautifully. So having handled both the S12 and Mka 1919, its the s12 all day long. Granted the 1919 has it's advantages, the better platform IMO is the s12

 

An honest opinion. What you like is a individual choice but you at least have tried both to a degree before voting. I think some voters have not.

[gregomega 929]

If instead of Turkish partial plastic, it were plastic and made by an Austrian company that comes to mind, people would have no problem with that.

 

I would be surprised if we didn't see newsclips of people with their genitals caught in the action after they got too excited.

 

So the issue is whether the plastic on this gun fails or offers some real disadvantage, or whether people just don't like the idea.

 

Sadly what a lot of it is, some folks who drive a chevy think that fords suck even if the rustang cobra just left them in a ditch. Its a mindset that isnt open to anything not familiar or what daddy told them. Missed opportunities but there is always hope to at least get people to try something new. I remember seeing a S12 at a local funshow a decade or more ago and turning my nose up at it. Live and hopefully learn to have an open mind.

 

Nope, wrong again. In my case anyway. My dad and grandpa used to drive Chevys, and they never said one brand or another sucks. . I drive a ford, not because of the name but because my last one which was a 68 ran beautifully. So having handled both the S12 and Mka 1919, its the s12 all day long. Granted the 1919 has it's advantages, the better platform IMO is the s12

 

An honest opinion. What you like is a individual choice but you at least have tried both to a degree before voting. I think some voters have not.

 

Agreed.

[washburnizer 8]

I have only shot one MK... and shot about 8 S12s. Own an S12. The S12 just feels better to me. More well made, solid. I hate the factory stock on the Turkish gun, especially that it is not easily changed. The S12 just seems more customizable to the owner's tastes and it's based on the AK platform. That's why I prefer and own the S12.

[saillaw 2]

As an owner of both, if I were told I had only $700 to spend on the Akdal or a S12, and the Zombie apocalypse was coming, I'd personally choose the Akdal. Yes I know people will think that's crazy, but it just feels better to me, I can't help but feeling like an S12 unmodified is made from a tin can; if I can't afford to customize the S12, its the Akdal I'd chose.

 

My 2 cents.

[buddharacing-1 2]

I have bought several shotguns from turkey and have not had any issues with them. some of the machine work isnt completely finished but they all function well. i cant wait to get an akdal 1919. The egros are what settles it for me. i hog hunt with my s12 and trying to take it off safety quietly with out a lot of movement is a pain.

[kato515 1]

Having owned 3 Saiga 12's and a .410, and now the Akdal. I would have to echo what a couple of the previous posters have said. For initial $700 its the Akdal hands down. Can not wait to see what is coming down the road in the way of customization for the Akdal's...

However, in the event there were no custom parts market to ever develop with this platform and we were stuck with whats out there. I would still be more than happy with the Akdal. Its a great gun right out of the box. Its eaten everything I have thrown at it, and I had plenty of leftovers from fussy S-12's.

 

The S-12 pioneered the market. Plenty of room for both guns. But I can see adding more 'AR-12's' to the lineup personally. Its a game changer, and its reliability out of the box will have the attention of those who dont have the scratch to throw down on a custom Saiga. IMO a S-12 without some shop work off the boat, can be a crapshoot.

[Ezra 8]

Having owned 3 Saiga 12's and a .410, and now the Akdal. I would have to echo what a couple of the previous posters have said. For initial $700 its the Akdal hands down. Can not wait to see what is coming down the road in the way of customization for the Akdal's...

However, in the event there were no custom parts market to ever develop with this platform and we were stuck with whats out there. I would still be more than happy with the Akdal. Its a great gun right out of the box. Its eaten everything I have thrown at it, and I had plenty of leftovers from fussy S-12's.

 

The S-12 pioneered the market. Plenty of room for both guns. But I can see adding more 'AR-12's' to the lineup personally. Its a game changer, and its reliability out of the box will have the attention of those who dont have the scratch to throw down on a custom Saiga. IMO a S-12 without some shop work off the boat, can be a crapshoot.

 

I have to endorse the above sentiment heartily. I have 2 S12's and wouldn't trade either one for speckled pup. On the other hand, I have a couple of converted Saiga 7.62's, and wouldn't trade either for an AR.

 

But, there's just something about the Akdal, something maybe even indefinable, that sets it apart. From the factory, mine was more than happy to shoot light loads that even my pair of Benelli M1's would stumble over. And fast? Boy! for some reason I can pull that trigger seemingly just shy of FA speeds.

 

I added a rail to the top of my Akdal yesterday, removed the handle (left the front sight for the nonce), and put on a set of Magpul MBIS's. I tried the set up out, removed the Magpul stuff, and went back to the factory set-up. Fact is, the bigger sights 'as are' fit me just perfectly. I did paint my front post white, and I do use the round ghost ring option on the rear. It's as good as any sight on any rifle or shotgun I own.

 

I contemplated adding a folding stock, but as time passes I find myself shying away from it. As far as getting the gun into compliance, which I had of course, planned, I beginning to think I may leave it more or less stock...

 

And instead of shooting for a couple of high capacity magazines, or a drum (got all that in my S12's) I think maybe adding to my 5 round mag total would serve just as well. My guns are all HD related or directed. And this gun, with five rounds per mag, and with mags that can be changed really quickly, added to the capability of choosing the choke best suited for HD, well, I think it will serve just fine.

 

I can think of no better way to say it than, "This gun suits me to a 'T', and I'm hanging onto it, probably adding others as time goes by".

 

Good shootin' to ya...

 

Ezra

[saiga545 47]

I own both but I can tell you without a doubt (IMHO) that the Saiga 12 is superior because it is better made (all steel), and field strips a hell of a lot easier. Mine has been totally reliable and it is a 4 port gun. It will cycle everything on the 1 setting with the exception of the Federal bulk pack (that runs great on 2). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I haven't had my 1919 long (only ~100 shells through it).

 

The MKA isn't a bad weapon but it does have design flaws. The plastic sights that come with it are an absolute joke. I stripped the plastic screw after checking to make sure the rail was in spec and I only finger tightened it. And I don't see the plastic front sight holding up for the long term - so I anxiously await a quad rail. Field stripping the weapon for a detail cleaning is unreasonable. You have to take the buttpad off, then you need a 10 in socket wrench extension. The screw that holds the upper and lower together has to be pretty tight (~25ft-lbs) or it will back out (at least on mine). Sometimes the first shell won't chamber on a fresh mag (whether hitting the BHO or racking the bolt back with the CH). It will " upside down" nose dive into the upper and deform the hull to where the shell won't chamber - thus ruining the shell. Also, I have to use channel locks to tighten the gas regulator screw, lock nut, and handguard cap or they back off as well - anyone else have that problem? Overall the 1919 makes a good rec or even competion gun. The Saiga 12 is the superior combat shotgun.

[Jasper 19]

I own both but I can tell you without a doubt (IMHO) that the Saiga 12 is superior because it is better made (all steel), and field strips a hell of a lot easier. Mine has been totally reliable and it is a 4 port gun. It will cycle everything on the 1 setting with the exception of the Federal bulk pack (that runs great on 2). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I haven't had my 1919 long (only ~100 shells through it).

 

The MKA isn't a bad weapon but it does have design flaws. The plastic sights that come with it are an absolute joke. I stripped the plastic screw after checking to make sure the rail was in spec and I only finger tightened it. And I don't see the plastic front sight holding up for the long term - so I anxiously await a quad rail. Field stripping the weapon for a detail cleaning is unreasonable. You have to take the buttpad off, then you need a 10 in socket wrench extension. The screw that holds the upper and lower together has to be pretty tight (~25ft-lbs) or it will back out (at least on mine). Sometimes the first shell won't chamber on a fresh mag (whether hitting the BHO or racking the bolt back with the CH). It will " upside down" nose dive into the upper and deform the hull to where the shell won't chamber - thus ruining the shell. Also, I have to use channel locks to tighten the gas regulator screw, lock nut, and handguard cap or they back off as well - anyone else have that problem? Overall the 1919 makes a good rec or even competion gun. The Saiga 12 is the superior combat shotgun.

 

100 rounds eh?