chase cook 1 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Okay guys and gals, I am currently building my first saiga and I cannot stress how much I am loving my magazine fed 12 gauge semi-auto!! A twelve gauge AK... What!? None of my friends understand what I'm talking about untill they fire it in person Anyways to get to the subject matter, I have been wondering, out of the box, which shotgun is the one to go with?? For those of you who have owned a saiga and MKA, which one shoots better/ more reliably and has less problems from the start? I know that the quality control from Russia is definetely not the greatest, so is the Turkish shoti manufactured to higher standards? I know that the saiga has so many aftermarket products out now, it is fully customizable and you can build it for your specific need, usually exactly to match all your preferences, in an endless list of configurations.. with enough money of course. For those of you who have manufactured products and customized the akdal, are we going to be able to make it even more bad ass than custom saigas in the years to come?? I dont know if the 1919 has been out long enough to make this comparison to the saiga, let me know if this is the case. I would love to here everyone's opinion on the subject, and please do not get mad at me for trying to compare the two weapons. I myself do not believe or know that one is better than the other, and that is why I am starting this thread. Thanks in advance for your input!! Edited May 20, 2012 by Nailbomb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Do this poll again in about 5 years. Currently the S-12 is my choice. But I'm open minded enough to understand that newer designes can surpass the old. I just chaps me that a US Gun Company did not come up with the idea to make a mag fed shotgun wrapped up in the skin of an AR. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jasper 19 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Do this in just 6 months and it may be a whole new game. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Saiga.. It's Russian and metal... not Turkish and plastic.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Saiga 12- AK reliability and drums! From what I have read a drum is unlikely for the MKA as it would have to be metal, due to the mag well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I don't own an Adkal, on paper it should win the but out of the box comparison. Mag well, auto gas adjustment, sights/ sight line are all plusses. (the drum doesn't come in the saiga box, nor the legal right to install one.) If you count available accessories, I think it loses. 'High cap' mags., ability to shorten a little, or a lot. (you can put a folder on both with modification, but I don't see room to make an Adkal equivalent to an S17), can add all the adkal features except auto gas-regulation up to 3"... Perhaps Mr Rumore can make some meaningful comments since he is currently reading... I didn't vote, because I haven't compared them 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jasper 19 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) The replies are not suprising considering the forum. I have campaigned a S12 in multigun for a few years and see more long term potential in the MKA. I have a question for those who voted S12. Do you own a MKA? Shot more than a couple mags in one?? Don't read that as a insult but as a honest question. Too often blind brand loyalty makes us miss big things. If not, voting in a poll like this is somewhat dishonest if you don't have a basis of opinion. But this is obviously an unscientific poll. I am obviously the too early to tell vote. Edited November 17, 2011 by Jasper 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chase cook 1 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) Thanks for your thoughts so far guys, even the very bias saiga comments which I can only expect lol.. You're bringing up some great points helping form my opinion as well as others. I really would LOVE to here from you who have shot/owned both of these guns, so if this applies to you, PLEASE leave a comment. Hopefully Tony, the guys from firebird precision arms, or any of the others who have shot/manufactured parts for and customized these guns will give us their 2 cents as they would be the most suitable to answer this question. This is the first thread I've started and did not realize how fast i'd get replies so thanks again guys! Please continue to leave your opinions and try to keep an open mind, thanks! -Chase Edited November 17, 2011 by SVT_4life Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 yeah, I think the 870 forum would be a good place to do a poll about saigas. I have a saiga because it is innovative, and has the features I want, not because it is traditional, and established. If you think about it pretty much everyone here is either an AK fanatic, or an early adopter. Sure this place will have a bias, but most of us are open to positive change. I bet a bunch of the things on Adkal would have not been included if they weren't having to compete with the features Saiga fans have demanded. I would be happy if every shotgun manufacturer made a versatile reliable mag fed semi. I guarantee, they would get more compact, more reliable and lighter. The race guns are proof that we haven't refined this down to elegant design yet. There is still plenty to add and remove, such as a couple inches of gas tube. I think the thing that both the Saiga and the Adkal have that needs to go is extra bulk and weight. I would love for them to kick off a trend, like all the "tactical" .22s. Once Remington and the like are selling magfed shotguns things are going to get really good and really cheap. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jasper 19 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Obviously I have one. I have only put about 300ish rounds thru mine. Currently I'm waiting on parts from Firebird including trigger/922 parts and left side charging handle/handgaurds. I put a DeltaPoint on it and ditched the plastic front sight. I also used an AR oversize mag release and had to mill off some and hand fit it and it works slick. I believe Tony is planing making one ready to go. The MKA has a tad bit more recoil than a S12. But it will run ANY brand of Walmart ammo down to 1140 fps with the Tromix bushing. All of this is already in other threads here. My overall evaluation and comparison is shooting out of the box the S12 is softer but the Akdal is more ammo friendly with just a $10 Tromix bushing HERE is where separation in favor of the MKA takes place. I can load a full mag with ease on a CLOSED bolt. Mag changes are also much easier and less fumbling and rocking. Straight shot insertion. And the ever elusive, for the S12, a perfectly reliable LRBHO. That's not a big deal to me though. It's the ease of mag changes. Anyway that's my opinion at this point and I want to see how reliable it is as the round count goes up. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I'm not sure the big mfg's are going to jump into the detachable box mag fed shotguns. I'll bet 99% of the shotguns out there are still used for hunting only(3 rounds max).....and you have to be a complete dorkwad or mall ninja to run around hunting with a mag fed gun, pulling the fucking mag out every shot and dicking around loading a shell and jamming it back in the gun when you can just stuff one in the tube. Even with multiple mags, it's a serious pain in the ass and takes two hands. That's a major drawback when hunting since you need to keep one hand on the gun and the other on your beer............ Tony 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litlratt1 3 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I have both. Too early to tell. I do believe the Akdal will be the better of the two in time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chase cook 1 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks Mr. Rumore for giving us your opinion! I too would love to see american manufacturers producing magazine fed shotguns, but I don't see it in our near future unless a start up company who realizes how vital this weapon would be comes into the works. Great point of why the big mfgs have started producing them and makes sense now that I think about it, just sucks for us .. Do you think that a company like yours or the other guys like red jacket, or lonestar arms that currently overhaul saigas will ever build, from the ground up, or bring in the manufacture of a new, american made, magazine fed shotgun? One that comes out of the box with all the features of the upgraded saigas that we need, such as a reliable gas system, manufactured to tighter tolerances, rail systems, better sights, magwell, drums, etc?? If so, why wont this occur? Thanks in advance! -Chase Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 There aren't enough people here that have shot both to give you any real data, IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chase cook 1 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks Topmaul, Gunfun, Jasper, Tony and Litlratt1 for the open mind!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chase cook 1 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I here ya Bob, prolly a little to early to tell, I think I'm going to buy one after my saiga build to find out myself. But that'll be a little while I really love the features of the akdal such as the similar to m-16 ergonomics, the forward set, non recipricating charging handle from firebird precision arms, and the LRBHO! Idk, I guess only time will tell how awesome the akdal will become! It definetely needs someone to produce drums too!! Maybe a beta style mag Edited November 24, 2011 by SVT_4life Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I've shot/owned both and as they are right now, IMO, S12. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks Mr. Rumore for giving us your opinion! I too would love to see american manufacturers producing magazine fed shotguns, but I don't see it in our near future unless a start up company who realizes how vital this weapon would be comes into the works. Great point of why the big mfgs have started producing them and makes sense now that I think about it, just sucks for us .. Do you think that a company like yours or the other guys like red jacket, or lonestar arms that currently overhaul saigas will ever build, from the ground up, or bring in the manufacture of a new, american made, magazine fed shotgun? One that comes out of the box with all the features of the upgraded saigas that we need, such as a reliable gas system, manufactured to tighter tolerances, rail systems, better sights, magwell, drums, etc?? If so, why wont this occur? Thanks in advance! -Chase Alliance Armament is building one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jasper 19 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks Mr. Rumore for giving us your opinion! I too would love to see american manufacturers producing magazine fed shotguns, but I don't see it in our near future unless a start up company who realizes how vital this weapon would be comes into the works. Great point of why the big mfgs have started producing them and makes sense nJow that I think about it, just sucks for us .. Do you think that a company like yours or the other guys like red jacket, or lonestar arms that currently overhaul saigas will ever build, from the ground up, or bring in the manufacture of a new, american made, magazine fed shotgun? One that comes out of the box with all the features of the upgraded saigas that we need, such as a reliable gas system, manufactured to tighter tolerances, rail systems, better sights, magwell, drums, etc?? If so, why wont this occur? Thanks in advance! -Chase Alliance Armament is building one. Would that be the same outfit that built the doorstop of a drum and had a huge disagreements in the S12 forum?? If so I will pass. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Whats better? It depends on point of view Lets look at long term options in several areas S12 has how many trigger options... 1919 can be made to accept several, including very high end choices. Barrels, S12 has two choices in length ...but no replacements 1919 has one choice in length but can be replaced, so you can have interchangeable configurations. S12 has very limited sight systems 1919 can accept any AR compatible system and other choices are also there. A variety of muzzle devices are available for both guns, but the 1919 uses Winchester pattern chokes so a much larger selection is available S12 has AK ergonomics, and much has had to be done to improve or make them into AR type controls/ ergonomics 1919 has push button mag release, thumb safety and direct mag insertion/ AR compatible controls S12 is stamped steel assembled with rivets and pins having very limited diss assembly and NO oem maintenance parts 1919 will have full support in replacement parts, andisi very simple to service I could go on and on...but the comparison may be irrelevant, and I dont see a real fair conclusion or comparison I am fond of the AK and have several, and I prefer them in the original AK configuration, not because it cant be improved but because thats the way they were made. I see the 1919 serving a completely different purpose . For the last several years I have used an S12 for competition, not because it was the best tool , it was the only tool that could be made to do the job. Myself and others have gone to great lengths to make the S12 into something it is not. With the 1919 we will just improve upon what it is. Jim 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 What makes you think the Akdal will have better parts support than the Saiga? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks Mr. Rumore for giving us your opinion! I too would love to see american manufacturers producing magazine fed shotguns, but I don't see it in our near future unless a start up company who realizes how vital this weapon would be comes into the works. Great point of why the big mfgs have started producing them and makes sense nJow that I think about it, just sucks for us .. Do you think that a company like yours or the other guys like red jacket, or lonestar arms that currently overhaul saigas will ever build, from the ground up, or bring in the manufacture of a new, american made, magazine fed shotgun? One that comes out of the box with all the features of the upgraded saigas that we need, such as a reliable gas system, manufactured to tighter tolerances, rail systems, better sights, magwell, drums, etc?? If so, why wont this occur? Thanks in advance! -Chase Alliance Armament is building one. Would that be the same outfit that built the doorstop of a drum and had a huge disagreements in the S12 forum?? If so I will pass. HAHA, yeah it is. The Akdal is on my list just not that high on the priority list. Unless of course my wife wants one for HD duty as it would be easier for her to operate... Hmmmmmmm. I think that we'll find that the Akdal will push the development of the Saiga at the factory level. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) What makes you think the Akdal will have better parts support than the Saiga? Hi Bob As far as I know, no major components for the Saiga have ever been imported. And the Turks have agreed to support the 1919 completely, and from what I understand only the paper trail is to be finished before parts will be imported We will have to see how it works out but it looks good so far, I would have to assume we can take them at their word on this. Jim Edited November 17, 2011 by gentlemanjim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Jim, I hope you're right, but I heard a lot of similar talk about the Saiga many years back. I suppose it's more likely with the Turks, but frankly I'm sceptical. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I still believe that if Remington or Mossberg made an AR looking box fed shotgun it would find instant acceptance in law enforcement, in competition, and the general public. That is assuming that the weapon was reliable and priced reasonibly. Just look at the number of Saiga shotguns that have been sold inspite of the price jump and the not so respectible quality of some guns. Edited November 18, 2011 by topmaul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snafu360 21 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I still believe that if Remington or Mossberg made an AR looking box fed shotgun it would find instant acceptance in law enforcement, in competition, and the general public. That is assuming that the weapon was reliable and priced reasonibly. Just look at the number of Saiga shotguns that have been sold inspite of the price jump and the not so respectible quality of some guns. Do this poll again in about 5 years. Currently the S-12 is my choice. But I'm open minded enough to understand that newer designes can surpass the old. I just chaps me that a US Gun Company did not come up with the idea to make a mag fed shotgun wrapped up in the skin of an AR. I 150% agree...look at all the home defense shotguns and this whole zombie gun this...SHTF that is so big right now. I will for sure buy one of these when the billet lower that accepts for the most part AR stuff,and bigger mags are made available. I could see these getting big soon Edited November 18, 2011 by snafu360 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I have designed and built two prototypes of AR platformed shotguns in the past three years both ran well and the only component up in the air was the mags. And I know of several others that have done similar projects. So USA made guns have and do exist in this configuration. But....and its a BIG but....people are concerned as to what ATF would decide to do, in regard to it. Given that two box fed guns are now approved may give rise to American company's bringing them out. Several years ago at Shot show, CMMG had one, they would not let you touch it....but it was hanging on the wall. Its not lack of innovation that has prevented it from coming about, its uncertainty on a more political basis. If and when a more favorable political environment comes about, an AR based shotgun will as well. jim 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 and you have to be a complete dorkwad or mall ninja to run around hunting with a mag fed gun, pulling the fucking mag out every shot and dicking around loading a shell and jamming it back in the gun when you can just stuff one in the tube. Even with multiple mags, it's a serious pain in the ass and takes two hands. That's a major drawback when hunting since you need to keep one hand on the gun and the other on your beer............ Tony I'll have you know I resemble that. With 3 S-12s I saw no need for my mossberg 500, and sent it off on its way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Jim I have to say I have a possible ar 12 guage design in my head once I retire from the military (next year) I will start seriously working on it myself. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jasper 19 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Saiga.. It's Russian and metal... not Turkish and plastic.. So have you actually spent any amount of time behind a Akdal??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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