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chase cook

Saiga 12 vs MKA-1919?

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I own both but I can tell you without a doubt (IMHO) that the Saiga 12 is superior because it is better made (all steel), and field strips a hell of a lot easier. Mine has been totally reliable and it is a 4 port gun. It will cycle everything on the 1 setting with the exception of the Federal bulk pack (that runs great on 2). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I haven't had my 1919 long (only ~100 shells through it).

 

The MKA isn't a bad weapon but it does have design flaws. The plastic sights that come with it are an absolute joke. I stripped the plastic screw after checking to make sure the rail was in spec and I only finger tightened it. And I don't see the plastic front sight holding up for the long term - so I anxiously await a quad rail. Field stripping the weapon for a detail cleaning is unreasonable. You have to take the buttpad off, then you need a 10 in socket wrench extension. The screw that holds the upper and lower together has to be pretty tight (~25ft-lbs) or it will back out (at least on mine). Sometimes the first shell won't chamber on a fresh mag (whether hitting the BHO or racking the bolt back with the CH). It will " upside down" nose dive into the upper and deform the hull to where the shell won't chamber - thus ruining the shell. Also, I have to use channel locks to tighten the gas regulator screw, lock nut, and handguard cap or they back off as well - anyone else have that problem? Overall the 1919 makes a good rec or even competion gun. The Saiga 12 is the superior combat shotgun.

 

100 rounds eh?

 

Like I said, I haven't had the MKA 1919 that long (about 1 month) and have taken it on two range trips (about 50 shells per trip) with slugs (federal high brass 2 3/4, 1 oz, 1610 fps), and single 0 buckshot 2 3/4. So my opinion at this point may be considered an initial impression. Maybe after a higher round count those misfeeds will go away. I'll definitely hang on to it for a while to see what more accessories come out.

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I own both but I can tell you without a doubt (IMHO) that the Saiga 12 is superior because it is better made (all steel), and field strips a hell of a lot easier. Mine has been totally reliable and it is a 4 port gun. It will cycle everything on the 1 setting with the exception of the Federal bulk pack (that runs great on 2). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I haven't had my 1919 long (only ~100 shells through it).

 

The MKA isn't a bad weapon but it does have design flaws. The plastic sights that come with it are an absolute joke. I stripped the plastic screw after checking to make sure the rail was in spec and I only finger tightened it. And I don't see the plastic front sight holding up for the long term - so I anxiously await a quad rail. Field stripping the weapon for a detail cleaning is unreasonable. You have to take the buttpad off, then you need a 10 in socket wrench extension. The screw that holds the upper and lower together has to be pretty tight (~25ft-lbs) or it will back out (at least on mine). Sometimes the first shell won't chamber on a fresh mag (whether hitting the BHO or racking the bolt back with the CH). It will " upside down" nose dive into the upper and deform the hull to where the shell won't chamber - thus ruining the shell. Also, I have to use channel locks to tighten the gas regulator screw, lock nut, and handguard cap or they back off as well - anyone else have that problem? Overall the 1919 makes a good rec or even competion gun. The Saiga 12 is the superior combat shotgun.

 

100 rounds eh?

 

Like I said, I haven't had the MKA 1919 that long (about 1 month) and have taken it on two range trips (about 50 shells per trip) with slugs (federal high brass 2 3/4, 1 oz, 1610 fps), and single 0 buckshot 2 3/4. So my opinion at this point may be considered an initial impression. Maybe after a higher round count those misfeeds will go away. I'll definitely hang on to it for a while to see what more accessories come out.

 

I have between 300-400 or so and put in a Tromix bushing when I bought it. After 50 rounds or so I think I have not had a hitch. That is with ammo down to 1140 fps. I ditched the front sight and handle and knew I would before I ever bought it. I do agree the barrel nut sucks which is why Im havinging Jim at Firebird change it while he has it to add the trigger and charging handle/hangaurd.

Really no need to disassemble it that far, yes I did it a couple times and it is a pain, for normal cleaning.

I like it better than my S12s and as soon as a reasonably priced mags come out I will push the saiga to the back of the safe. Maybe even sell it with the mags.

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I own both but I can tell you without a doubt (IMHO) that the Saiga 12 is superior because it is better made (all steel), and field strips a hell of a lot easier. Mine has been totally reliable and it is a 4 port gun. It will cycle everything on the 1 setting with the exception of the Federal bulk pack (that runs great on 2). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I haven't had my 1919 long (only ~100 shells through it).

 

The MKA isn't a bad weapon but it does have design flaws. The plastic sights that come with it are an absolute joke. I stripped the plastic screw after checking to make sure the rail was in spec and I only finger tightened it. And I don't see the plastic front sight holding up for the long term - so I anxiously await a quad rail. Field stripping the weapon for a detail cleaning is unreasonable. You have to take the buttpad off, then you need a 10 in socket wrench extension. The screw that holds the upper and lower together has to be pretty tight (~25ft-lbs) or it will back out (at least on mine). Sometimes the first shell won't chamber on a fresh mag (whether hitting the BHO or racking the bolt back with the CH). It will " upside down" nose dive into the upper and deform the hull to where the shell won't chamber - thus ruining the shell. Also, I have to use channel locks to tighten the gas regulator screw, lock nut, and handguard cap or they back off as well - anyone else have that problem? Overall the 1919 makes a good rec or even competion gun. The Saiga 12 is the superior combat shotgun.

 

100 rounds eh?

 

Like I said, I haven't had the MKA 1919 that long (about 1 month) and have taken it on two range trips (about 50 shells per trip) with slugs (federal high brass 2 3/4, 1 oz, 1610 fps), and single 0 buckshot 2 3/4. So my opinion at this point may be considered an initial impression. Maybe after a higher round count those misfeeds will go away. I'll definitely hang on to it for a while to see what more accessories come out.

 

I have between 300-400 or so and put in a Tromix bushing when I bought it. After 50 rounds or so I think I have not had a hitch. That is with ammo down to 1140 fps. I ditched the front sight and handle and knew I would before I ever bought it. I do agree the barrel nut sucks which is why Im havinging Jim at Firebird change it while he has it to add the trigger and charging handle/hangaurd.

Really no need to disassemble it that far, yes I did it a couple times and it is a pain, for normal cleaning.

I like it better than my S12s and as soon as a reasonably priced mags come out I will push the saiga to the back of the safe. Maybe even sell it with the mags.

 

Firebird is taking orders now? That one he shows off is amazing - that's how I want mine.

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Well, I took a chance.... bought an Akdal. I had both a S12 & a S20. (early 22" guns).I did all the work on them, moved trigger groups, opened ports, etc, polished all the parts (nice triggers, etc). I never felt comfortible with the non-bolt hold open mag, right hand mag changes . I was "aiming" for competition worthy firearm (A pun). Never happy with what I could or could not do with the Saiga's. So now, I'm playing with another "maybe" gun, guess this is why we play?????......

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Wow - reading Tony's posts about this weapon is making me a believer (I know - kool aid). From other reviews I've read, those misfeeds go away in time. They happen because the recoil spring is so heavy that the bolt doesn't move all the way to the rear to properly strip the shell - but shooting a lot of heavy loads will soften it up. I've got some 3 in turkey loads that I'll try this weekend.

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I've compared my MKA to my Saigas a couple of times. Yesterday for instance, I loaded up five round mags of AA #8 shot for each gun, and just, well, shot them.

 

My best Saiga, ramp reprofiled and polished, trigger reprofiled and polished, bolt and carrier reprofiled and polished, rails polished, folding stock, railed forearm, in short just about the peak of condition according to my view and skills...failed to eject 2 out of five.

 

The Akdal never whimpered, but shot them all flawlessly (sometimes, the Saigas will do that, but sometimes they won't). In fact, in several hundred rounds the Akdal has experienced a grand total of 1 failure to eject, and that one of my low powered, poorly crimped, reloads.

 

After several weeks of that kind of experimenting and use, I'm going to have to vote for the Akdal...although I wouldn't part with a one of my 4 Saigas (2 Saiga 12's, 2 Saiga 7.62's) for anything.

 

However, it is the MKA that sleeps alongside my bed each night, sits on the couch beside me, and receives the greatest bulk of my caressing and fondling, and shooting to of course.

 

My concern isn't competition...but rather home defense. And right now, out of the box, it outperforms any other semi-auto shotgun I own. The addition of some rails, a light and a sling, and shucks, l'm perfectly satisfied with the pretty thing...

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And remember guys, in June when we open up for new orders you will be able to order a TROMIX Saiga OR an AKDAL.

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We went to shot show media day with several 1919s for demos

 

Foolish me got out my personal race gun in zombie wear

Out of just under 3000 rounds fired we had two malfunctions, both were mag issues late in the day when the mags were filthy.

The ammo was all low brass Remington Peters 3 dram #8 shot

 

About 1800 of those rounds went through my zombie gun, with no cleaning or maintenance

 

No gun is perfect, all have some kind of shortcomings,

The mags are the weak link in any box fed gun, this one is no exception

All in all it seems a pretty good platform....and you can get ANY part you need to maintain it

Jim

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GentlemanJim can you explain this -

All in all it seems a pretty good platform....and you can get ANY part you need to maintain it

 

can you tell me where you can get factory replacement parts for this gun? who keep them in stock that i could just call and order from?

 

this is my only real complaint about my saiga 12s. if my carrier cracks or my bolt breaks or i need a new recoil spring guide rod i am out of luck with the s 12. and i have one that has about 10,000 round through it that is at the point where things are getting worn out.

 

are some Remington 1100 parts interchangeable with the 1919? just a hypothetical question but what would you do if the bolt assembly in a 1919 broke? i am very interested in this gun if there is factory parts support for them. cool.png

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where would you order it from? sorry for all the questions but i just want to get all the information i can before i consider another platform. i feel like i am at a crossroads with the saiga platform. i am either going to buy more and sell my old ones or change platforms. parts support from the manufacturer would definitely sway me in the 1919s direction. oh and i checked out the firebird precision website. you 1919 is awesome. if i get one i think i will just go ahead and get your $1800 package.

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I spoke with Clyde Woods at RAAC the other day about an extra part that had fallen out of my 1919 when I field stripped it. He made a point to tell me that they were going to be supporting this platform to the max with parts and updates. He stated that the Turkish manufacturer is very excited and open to input from the users and distributors as to future changes and improvements in the platform. He stated that the future cooperation will be much better than with the Saiga platform and manufacturer. He was very excited about the prospects.

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To me it's about how they feel. I've got very limited experience with the akdal, just shooting a friends. What stood out to me is the sort of "hollow plastic" feel that it had, the same feel that I disliked in the AA12. Strangely enough I have a carbon ar that feels this way and I love it. At first I was leery of turkish manufacturing too but it's range performance was solid.

 

I guess in a 12 gauge I prefer a more solid feel but I am keeping my mind open and may pick up an akdal if higher cap mags and other accessories become available.

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I'm not sure the big mfg's are going to jump into the detachable box mag fed shotguns. I'll bet 99% of the shotguns out there are still used for hunting only(3 rounds max).....and you have to be a complete dorkwad or mall ninja to run around hunting with a mag fed gun, pulling the fucking mag out every shot and dicking around loading a shell and jamming it back in the gun when you can just stuff one in the tube. Even with multiple mags, it's a serious pain in the ass and takes two hands. That's a major drawback when hunting since you need to keep one hand on the gun and the other on your beer............

 

Tony

 

True..............Unless you're hunting hogs. Then there is no mag or weapon restriction where I'm at, that's where a mag fed shotgun wins handsdown.

Edited by incognito485

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Can I get back to you in a year or two?

 

Its too close to call. I love my s12. Mine ran great out of the box, but I still wanted to fork out money for accesories (like getting something bigger than a 5 round mag) and picking up my "Crapco" Stock (go to hell, I love mine)

 

For the record: I have not shot, but have handled the Akdal 1919. Performance doesn't matter to me in this personal opinion, as it can only be equal to or less than that of my saiga (she's jammed literally three times in the past year)

 

Lets be realistic though. A plastic-feeling Turkish made shotgun? With no aftermarket potential as of now? (we shall see). And even if they came out with 10 rounders, a drum would never be made (the feed lip profile is so low, It'd look to awkward/get in the way).

 

Saiga 12 has an established reputation as a quality Russian firearm. Russia is known for firearms (more like taking 1 design and stretching it out over 60 years, but who's counting? I've never hear of Turkey producing anything, let alone firearms. And the AR fanboys will be all over it because it looks like the beloved ar15, even though the action is not even close to that of their rifle.

 

If the saiga never came to be, I'd be inclined to get a 1919. Necessity breeds invention. But there was no need for the 1919...... it's an answer to a problem that wasn't there.

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But there was no need for the 1919......

 

There is no need for indoor plumbing either, but it's kinda nice to have.

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There is always a need for another gun. Just because you are content with the saiga doesn't mean everyone else is. I had a choice as a new buyer to get the saiga 12 or 1919. I decided on the 1919. Based on all the reviews it feeds better with less tweaks. I'm not saying this is God's shotgun but based off what many on here have said that they love both but have found the 1919 easier. So what accessories aren't out yet. It took the saiga a while before they were readily available. The 1919 has only been out a short time. I cant wait to see the things it's capable of. Just my 2cents.

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But there was no need for the 1919...... it's an answer to a problem that wasn't there.

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

I constantly get requests for "AR" ergos on Saigas: the safety, magwell, and top rail most of all.

 

Not to mention that it doesn't require a pistol grip conversion...

 

But hey, I'm not selling my Saiga. AK's and AR's live happily side-by-side in my safe.

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This is fantastic! The 2 most debated topics resolved in only 4 posts!

 

Sorry about the thread hi-jack, it just seemed like a good place to ask.

 

bad_smile.gif

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Hey I've been meaning to ask you guys.

 

Whats better, an AK-47 or an AR-15...

 

I think it's purely a metter of preferance. Some people like the ruggedness of the AK platform and are willing to accept it's shortcomings.

 

Other folks prefer to choose the AR.Those folks woke up one morning and poured a nice lukewarm cup of decaf, maybe listened to some Hall & Oates and said to themselves....

 

My rifle is TOO powerful. I really want to try to duplicate 22 mag wound ballistics in a more fragile, heavier and of course massively more costly platform.

 

While I'm at it I think that it's time to get a "green" gun. Screw that whole "wasting gas residue" thing, I'm going to buy a gun that recycles my propellant residue by piping it back into the heart of my action.

 

And this whole surplus ammo thing confuses and scares me so I will choose a rifle that is very, very finicky about it's fodder, one so finicky it needs a button to push when it's soft, girlish mainspring doesn't have the strength to chamber a round, even though that is it's reason for being there.

 

Choice in stocks befuddle me as well, and if I was to have a side folder I would be constantly wondering... "to which side does it fold?" so I'll choose a rifle that has vital components located far behind the receiver, I know this will be hard to find in a "modern" weapon, but just like my hero Obama, I have hope.

 

I also often openly weep for the the plight of America's enemies, so I will choose a weapon that frequently fails in battlefield conditions, like when Jessica Lynch was captured and EVERY SINGLE WEAPON JAMMED DUE TO SMALL AMOUNTS OF SAND. So A gun like this that is known for it's propensity to explode would even the playing field.

 

Now if I can just find such a weapon in a fragile, vastly overpriced form I will be a happy guy.....

 

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