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haugpatr

40,000 rd AR, no repairs or new parts!

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Okay so I got suckered into the AK/AR debate in a SHTF rifle question. I know very little about the AR platform and do not want to stir up the debate here. My question is(and I think I know the answer), Would it be possible to take a brand new AR rifle and fire 40,000rds out of it, replacing no parts? How about an AK for 40,000rds? I'll try and post a link to the original thread for those who are really bored and want to read it, but the argument against AK's is you need a "machine shop" to work on them, the guy was referring to replacing the barrel. I thought you ran 40 or 50 thousand rounds through AK's replacing some springs and then grab another one!

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Depending on the AK, you may or may not need a shop press to remove the barrel - I've seen one removed with a mallet and brass rod. I believe on milled AKs, the barrel is threaded into the receiver - presumably a barrel wrench is sufficient.

 

Either rifle may have a failure that requires a part to be replaced after so many rounds - a broken firing pin or ejector, maybe. The first thing I would expect would not be a catastrophic failure, but something that would reduce reliability - a worn extractor.

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it would be great if you could get a dual speakergreader to translate that for us

 

Now ask PapaZorro translate. I speak little English. Sorry.

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I read that the AR in the Pat Rogers course is now over 26,000 rounds, but had some springs replaced. But seriously, in a SHTF situaiton, will you shoot 40,000 rounds and not expect to get tagged by the guys shooting back? If the SHTF, I'm gonna duck and cover, and see who's left after the rounds stop flying. Getting into a gun battle where I shoot hundreds of rounds at a time seems like the last thing I'd want to do.

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Briefly, this article is about Saiga-M3 EXP-01 from the first product line, and the owner (Afghanistan Veteran) describes how it's looks now after more then 40000 shots was done, describes the problem was during exploitation & shows curent condition of Saiga-M3 EXP-01.

Edited by PapaZorro

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I think he's trying to say, 40,000 rounds CONTINUOUS fire???

 

I don't think either rifle would survive...big_smile.gif

Edited by Bean.223

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I read that the AR in the Pat Rogers course is now over 26,000 rounds, but had some springs replaced.

That is filthy 14. I got handed a different one. Pat doesn't believe in cleaning guns unnecessarily. And he defines necessary as when it stops working reliably.

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Not an ak or ar but I did this with my first tok. Polish vz48 dated 1951. Bought in 2000. Took it to the range every time and ran about 100 rounds a month of Yugo surplus x25. Finally in 2009 a small piece of the rail on the right side of the hammer/sear/disconnect group broke off during firing. That was the day I cleaned it. Still runs like a champ. Some minor pitting in the barrel but still shiny and brow rust like discoloration inside the mag well.

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Translate the main points.

Saiga 7,62 photo from the article and my shotgun 12ga

 

1. 2-3K shots - to hammer appeared burrs that clung to the sear and trigger stuck on it. They were removed needle files.

 

# 1 position on the photo

95525317.jpg

2. 8-10K shots - Round sear a single lamp. Started double firing.

 

Fixed in the grip of needle files.

95525437.jpg

 

 

3. After 10K rounds - broken sear a single lamp.

 

Position # 3 on the photo

95525317.jpg

Burnt gas pipe.

95523377.jpg

95523376.jpg

 

95523375.jpg

 

This happens about every 12-15K

 

4. Wear sleeve trigger

95525830.jpg

 

5. Depreciation ledge hammer. Fixed welding.

 

Position # 2 on the photo

95525317.jpg

 

6. After a 20-25K rounds - break the firing pin and extractor tooth.

95525241.jpg

 

 

Broken axle hole hammer and trigger. You need to timely change the axis that would avoid this.

95525253.jpg

 

 

 

7. After 40K rounds - broken rail on a moving bolt carrier. The bolt carrier began to fall out of the receiver. Saiga sending in for repair.

 

 

 

Hammer springs are normal.

95523374.jpg

 

 

The gas piston has a sink.

95523363.jpg

 

Status of the barrel is satisfactory, but inside there is a sink

95523364.jpg

 

Grouping to 50m

95523370.jpg

 

95523371.jpg

 

Where there are any statistics on the AR-15?

Edited by Sergii
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I agree with others, in a SHTF situation it's not a matter of if the gun will shoot tens of thousands of rounds, or even thousands. What matters most is if it can shoot less than a thousand without lube and with whatever ammo you may have to use, because shit happens. You're not going to be in a war and you would likely not fire your gun much at all. You're also not likely to have 40,000 rounds on hand....

Edited by bigj480
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AK can be operated without any lubrication and more than 1000 shots. This is exactly and tested more than once.

If you have a weapon for SHTF situation, you have a gun "on every day." And for hunting and for sport and for self-defense.

For me, as a lot of shooting, life and simplicity of weapons is very important.

 

ps in a short time for the sport going to buy AR-15. Let's see how long it will last.

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Got over 10 K through a old chink polytech since 1988.

 

NOTHING REPLACED lotz of bumpfire.

 

put 2700 out of a bushmaster ar15 before I sold it. NEVER a part replaced.

 

still have the poly sidefolder and have since built new AR's.

So far the AR is rinning @ 1700 rounds no parts replaced.

 

AK is a red stamped polytech sidefolder.

current AR is a DPMS M-forgery with ACOG.

 

all run well ,all are run dry.

time will tell.

I shoot for fun, if the SHTF well,, I'll probably just die anyways ( one can hope) the 1st ones are the lucky ones.

I like to kill paper plates for fun. so shooting is a sport to me.

 

Nice to see some endurace tests though. and just 'cause someone's gun runs UMTEEN rounds doesn't mean yours will!

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I agree with others, in a SHTF situation it's not a matter of if the gun will shoot tens of thousands of rounds, or even thousands. What matters most is if it can shoot less than a thousand without lube and with whatever ammo you may have to use, because shit happens. You're not going to be in a war and you would likely not fire your gun much at all. You're also not likely to have 40,000 rounds on hand....

 

You'll need a 22LR that shoots 40,000 before you'll need either an AK or AR to do that

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I agree with others, in a SHTF situation it's not a matter of if the gun will shoot tens of thousands of rounds, or even thousands. What matters most is if it can shoot less than a thousand without lube and with whatever ammo you may have to use, because shit happens. You're not going to be in a war and you would likely not fire your gun much at all. You're also not likely to have 40,000 rounds on hand....

No shit, I thought the same thing.

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I agree with others, in a SHTF situation it's not a matter of if the gun will shoot tens of thousands of rounds, or even thousands. What matters most is if it can shoot less than a thousand without lube and with whatever ammo you may have to use, because shit happens. You're not going to be in a war and you would likely not fire your gun much at all. You're also not likely to have 40,000 rounds on hand....

No shit, I thought the same thing.

 

 

I agree with the above statement, I was just using the 40,000rd to compare durability of guns, if I have 2,000 through a gun now that will last for 40,000, I know I have some reliability. Thanks for all the input guys!

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Did no one read this? 50,000 rounds lube free through an AR-15. Technology has advanced both the AR and AK platform far from there original designs. Now if you handed me a Vietnam era AK and a Vietnam era AR, the AK would stick with me hands down, but I think these days in the great country we live in there are many more choices then what fell off a truck and was imported three or four decades ago.

 

The rifle that you carry in to a SHTF situation should be the one you shoot best, NOT the one that everyone tells you is best. If you need to run it wet then do it. It's really not that difficult to clean a weapon, I actually get enjoyment out of it.

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Did no one read this?

 

I clicked it but it's just an advertisement. I thought you were just saying that people should get their ARs failzero coated.

 

50,000 rounds lube free through an AR-15. Technology has advanced both the AR and AK platform far from there original designs. Now if you handed me a Vietnam era AK and a Vietnam era AR, the AK would stick with me hands down, but I think these days in the great country we live in there are many more choices then what fell off a truck and was imported three or four decades ago.

 

The rifle that you carry in to a SHTF situation should be the one you shoot best, NOT the one that everyone tells you is best. If you need to run it wet then do it. It's really not that difficult to clean a weapon, I actually get enjoyment out of it.

 

I don't doubt that a coated AR would work fine in a SHTF situation, but I don't tend to take manufacture's claims as gospel. I'm sure it helps some, that's about it. I would not want to use a gun in a life or death situation with unknown circumstances that has to be wet to function. Not when I have other options. It's best to assume worst case scenario IMHO. You are separated from supplies with only a gun and what ammo you have on you. For this reason, I think it's smart to keep some supplies on the gun just in case. I'm also not worried about sub MOA groups, I think most shooting would be relatively close for my situation, assuming I have to shoot at all. That's not to say that accuracy doesn't matter, that's just to say that it's not to be put above reliability. Truth be told, most modern Semi-auto rifles with a decent capacity would likely work fine, but we tend to over analyze. Not that it's always a bad thing. If you have EVERYTHING else you need, sure, spend hundreds on coated parts. Otherwise, I think other supplies are more important. .02

Edited by bigj480

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I don't doubt that a coated AR would work fine in a SHTF situation, but I don't tend to take manufacture's claims as gospel. I'm sure it helps some, that's about it. I would not want to use a gun in a life or death situation with unknown circumstances that has to be wet to function. Not when I have other options. It's best to assume worst case scenario IMHO. You are separated from supplies with only a gun and what ammo you have on you. For this reason, I think it's smart to keep some supplies on the gun just in case. I'm also not worried about sub MOA groups, I think most shooting would be relatively close for my situation, assuming I have to shoot at all. That's not to say that accuracy doesn't matter, that's just to say that it's not to be put above reliability. Truth be told, most modern Semi-auto rifles with a decent capacity would likely work fine, but we tend to over analyze. Not that it's always a bad thing. If you have EVERYTHING else you need, sure, spend hundreds on coated parts. Otherwise, I think other supplies are more important. .02

 

The fail zero doesn't need to be wet, and it has been proven by someone other then themselves. the military, hence why they won the contract (LWRC, the parent company of zero fail). My point is that everytime this topic comes up someone has to state, "I might loose my CLP during SHTF and then I'll have no way to lube my rifle". This is an uneducated thing to state. You can use motor oil, fat, the list goes on it's all just a matter of how long that "lube" will work. For the record it's pretty simple to keep a few bottles of CLP in the bottom of your mag pouches, I've yet to lose one and even if I did there's still two more I'd have to lose after that.

I hardly look at spending money on the weapon that I would use in a SHTF situation as something I would skimp on. I leave that to the folks who think gear matters little. Skills make the man, technology makes the man even better.

 

An individual should take what ever they shoot best for there AO. If thats an AK, AR, FAL or a ruger 10/22 it matters little to me. My point was that people who focus on one platform because they've heard different stories around the internet that it's the best for SHTF are really selling themselves short. Every platform has its pros and cons.

 

By the way, there's plenty of AKs out there that can shoot MOA (ya just have to spend the $) so I think that whole arguement which is STILL frickin going from decades ago is a mute point.

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I don't doubt that a coated AR would work fine in a SHTF situation, but I don't tend to take manufacture's claims as gospel. I'm sure it helps some, that's about it. I would not want to use a gun in a life or death situation with unknown circumstances that has to be wet to function. Not when I have other options. It's best to assume worst case scenario IMHO. You are separated from supplies with only a gun and what ammo you have on you. For this reason, I think it's smart to keep some supplies on the gun just in case. I'm also not worried about sub MOA groups, I think most shooting would be relatively close for my situation, assuming I have to shoot at all. That's not to say that accuracy doesn't matter, that's just to say that it's not to be put above reliability. Truth be told, most modern Semi-auto rifles with a decent capacity would likely work fine, but we tend to over analyze. Not that it's always a bad thing. If you have EVERYTHING else you need, sure, spend hundreds on coated parts. Otherwise, I think other supplies are more important. .02

 

The fail zero doesn't need to be wet, and it has been proven by someone other then themselves. the military, hence why they won the contract (LWRC, the parent company of zero fail). My point is that everytime this topic comes up someone has to state, "I might loose my CLP during SHTF and then I'll have no way to lube my rifle". This is an uneducated thing to state. You can use motor oil, fat, the list goes on it's all just a matter of how long that "lube" will work. For the record it's pretty simple to keep a few bottles of CLP in the bottom of your mag pouches, I've yet to lose one and even if I did there's still two more I'd have to lose after that.

I hardly look at spending money on the weapon that I would use in a SHTF situation as something I would skimp on. I leave that to the folks who think gear matters little. Skills make the man, technology makes the man even better.

 

An individual should take what ever they shoot best for there AO. If thats an AK, AR, FAL or a ruger 10/22 it matters little to me. My point was that people who focus on one platform because they've heard different stories around the internet that it's the best for SHTF are really selling themselves short. Every platform has its pros and cons.

 

By the way, there's plenty of AKs out there that can shoot MOA (ya just have to spend the $) so I think that whole arguement which is STILL frickin going from decades ago is a mute point.

 

I generally agree with everything you said. It's just that when I hear "run wet" I interpret that as "needs lots of tube to work". The reason I mentioned the money for failsafe parts is because there are some people that spend all their money they can on guns and little on other supplies. Nothing wrong with spending tons of money on a go-to gun, it's just a matter of prioritizing and not forgetting other items. Sure, there are AKs that shoot well, but often times the ammo/caliber is the limiting factor. Wolf or surplus 7.62 just will not shoot MOA at longer ranges, not that it matters much to me. In 5.45, 5.56 and 308 they do a bit better. Anyone who thinks they are gonna give a shit about MOA groups or be picking guys off at 3-400 yards IF they have to really use their gun is likely delusional IMHO.

Edited by bigj480
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Fair enough. Run it wet to me means lubing it after every 1000rds for an AR. If a gun can't get through two cycles of what a person considers there "combat" load (for some this is 100rds, others 500rds) without having to do some sort of anything to it to get it function appropriatly it should be dumped in the trash.

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