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Older Saiga 12 (with issues) worth converting?


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I have an older (12-16 years old?) Saiga 12 that I tossed in the back of my closet years ago as "a piece of junk" soon after buying it. I recently started investigating selling it when I discovered all the Saiga-love and conversion possibilities. Now I'm looking at possibly converting it, but I want to make sure the issues I'm having are correctable - and also make sure that there's nothing with the older models that would make it foolish to convert instead of picking up a new one. After drooling over the 38 pages of gun porn pinned at the top of the forum, and learning some basics that I wasn't aware of when I purchased it - I took it out again and put it through its paces. Here's the issues I originally had that made my negative first impression:

 

A) Frequent FTF and FTE - some mags DOA

B ) Kicks like a 3-legged Ninja

C) Cheap stamped safety lever that overshoots Safe and scratches the receiver.

D) Overall poor fit & finish

E) Must hold open the bolt in order to insert the mag (mine is pre-BHO). Each mag change makes me feel like some spastic orchestra conductor.

 

After some recent research exposing some of my own ignorance - I switched the gas setting to "1" and the recoil improved dramatically. The scratching of the receiver appears common to all Saigas and the safety and fit/finish is part of the inherent AK-style. I went through 45 shells (5 at a time) through my lone working mag and only had one FTF (shell #2 of the mag). So I'm down to two things that need correction:

 

1) The 3 factory mags I had never fed reliably. 3 were returned and reworked (when new) and I was able to net 1 working mag. Never bothered to send the other two back again because I was fed up with the whole weapon. After taking it out again, I'm still in the same boat - One works, the other 2 don't chamber at all. The bolt hits the back of the shell and stops. This is with 2 3/4" or 3" shells.

 

2) I read that the mag should be able to be inserted with a closed bolt, so I gave that a try this time - but still a no-go.

 

So bottom line is - are those two issues common and correctable? Is there something about the older version that makes it less desirable to convert? I'd probably do the standard conversion and possibly cut the barrel down to 18" short term - expecting to eventually send it for a Tromix SBS treatment sometime down the road.

 

Any and all armchair diagnostics welcome and appreciated.

Edited by CPanther95
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first, the magazines. are you saying that they will not lock into the receiver?

second, loading a mag , a full one on a closed bolt. probably cannot be done without a proper re profiling and polish job. i did my own, and now have no trouble with full stick mags. my drums however, must be under loaded by one shell to load against a closed bolt.

i think that after market BHO parts are available.

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first, the magazines. are you saying that they will not lock into the receiver?

 

Mags insert fine, but they won't feed. Bolt just jams against the back of the first shell and it doesn't chamber.

 

 

second, loading a mag , a full one on a closed bolt. probably cannot be done without a proper re profiling and polish job. i did my own, and now have no trouble with full stick mags. my drums however, must be under loaded by one shell to load against a closed bolt.

i think that after market BHO parts are available.

 

I'll try under loading the magazine next time I take it out. Also look into reprofiling/polishing as part of the conversion.

 

If I can get the mags in with the bolt closed, I probably wouldn't bother adding a BHO.

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first, the magazines. are you saying that they will not lock into the receiver?

second, loading a mag , a full one on a closed bolt. probably cannot be done without a proper re profiling and polish job. i did my own, and now have no trouble with full stick mags. my drums however, must be under loaded by one shell to load against a closed bolt.

i think that after market BHO parts are available.

 

That just isn't true. It takes technique. 1. push the mag up fairly straight, 2 kind of rock forward until you can hook the lug, 3 rock back. It is learnable.

 

A magwell fixes that.

 

Aftermarket BHO is available for around $12 you will have to cut a small slot in the receiver for the button to stick through. Also, it means you will have to use a trigger with the right side of the axle shortened to allow for the bho to clear. all of the s12 specific trigger kits available have this done already.

 

What ammo were you using? and what gas setting? Have you checked/ counted your gas ports? these should help to diagnose ejection.

 

Feeding issues... It sounds like your magazine is holding the shells low on alignment. a picture with the dust cover off, a full mag inserted and the bolt held back, would help to see what is going on.

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http://forum.saiga-1...__fromsearch__1this thread has some pictures and measurements of where the shell should be aligned. It sounds like yours is sitting lower.

 

Oh, and for issue C)

--the scratch is an AK problem that you live with.

--Is it just annoying from a a cosmetic standpoint, or is it going so far up that it is no longer pinning the trigger block?

issue D) can be addressed by how nice a job you do during conversion.

--as for overshooting, when you convert, you can file a step in the trigger rather than shortening the safety while safety fitting, and that gives you a solid stop point. (or file a small step, and do the rest by shortening the safety tab.)

 

If you hate it, I will scrape up a hundred bucks, and we can work something out with an FFL. I think I could fix'n flip that guy.

Edited by GunFun
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before you take it back out to shoot. i suggest taking out the gas plug and puck. check the barrel ports. make certain all is clean. find out how many ports it has.

 

gunfun, sure, you may be able to force a stick mag in on a closed bolt. if it has not been reprofiled and polished the top shell will deform in a short time. fine for the range, but not even for overnite. a full drum will not lock in even on a reprofiled / polished bolt.

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before you take it back out to shoot. i suggest taking out the gas plug and puck. check the barrel ports. make certain all is clean. find out how many ports it has.

 

I hadn't messed with the ports because the one thing is does very well on setting "1" is handle every ammo I fed it. From low brass birdshot to high brass slugs. If I'm using the 1 good mag, it operates great.

 

http://forum.saiga-1...__fromsearch__1this thread has some pictures and measurements of where the shell should be aligned. It sounds like yours is sitting lower.

 

Oh, and for issue C)

--the scratch is an AK problem that you live with.

--Is it just annoying from a a cosmetic standpoint, or is it going so far up that it is no longer pinning the trigger block?

issue D) can be addressed by how nice a job you do during conversion.

--as for overshooting, when you convert, you can file a step in the trigger rather than shortening the safety while safety fitting, and that gives you a solid stop point. (or file a small step, and do the rest by shortening the safety tab.)

 

> I'll check out that thread.

> The scratch issue was just a cosmetic issue. When I got the gun, there wasn't an abundance of internet user photos. After seeing it here on so many guns, I now view it as something that "gives it character" ;) Functionally it works fine - I just didn't like that it passed the "S" dimple - it seemed like a mistake.

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Some inspiration....

Before....

post-22401-0-43398500-1322362944_thumb.jpg

 

and after....

post-22401-0-97746900-1322362952_thumb.jpg

 

You might just send that sucker out to Tromix now. Tony has a pretty long waiting list.

 

Can't wait for June 2012. I'll convert it soon and when I'm ready for a SBS - send it to Tromix.

 

>>> So the fact it is an older model doesn't pose any unique issues I should know about?

>>> Is it worth getting the barrel cut down a few inches?

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Some inspiration....

Before....

post-22401-0-43398500-1322362944_thumb.jpg

 

and after....

post-22401-0-97746900-1322362952_thumb.jpg

 

You might just send that sucker out to Tromix now. Tony has a pretty long waiting list.

 

Can't wait for June 2012. I'll convert it soon and when I'm ready for a SBS - send it to Tromix.

 

>>> So the fact it is an older model doesn't pose any unique issues I should know about?

>>> Is it worth getting the barrel cut down a few inches?

If you want to pay the tax ($200.00) and wait 90 days or more for you gun and get the local sheriff to sign off on it!!!

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After looking at the mags, the angle of the shells all appear identical. The one thing that is clearly different is the plastic that covers the bottom of the brass. There is a small plastic tab that was ground down. I seem to remember when I got them back from rework thinking that was the only thing modified because and the end result was inconsistent - like they just buzzed them with a grinder and sent them back.

 

If you look at the photo below, the working mag (center) has a relatively consistent, smooth angle from the furthest point back to the point where the bolt contacts the brass. The other two are very rough/stepped. There is also about 0.010" more depth to the two non-working mags.

 

I may try to hit these with a dremel and see if this is the reason for the issue.

post-37990-0-79020900-1322407317_thumb.jpg

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Looks like they to tried fit the mag and did not get it right.

There is a video on how to fit mags to your S12.

The 2 mags might be to far gone, but there are others that will know more, they might

how to fix them.

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Save the frustation their is a member here that would give you a few bucks for bad mags and get a couple of new ones.If you get it converted their are some venders hear that can do it and do a good job.I have one at JT Engineering now being done.I like the AK platform but the safety was one thing I personally don't like so am having his crossbolt safety installed.I am having mine done by him because he does more than just a basic trigger conversion and I am just lazy and don't want to deal with it if I had problems.He guaranties his work.

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Some inspiration....

Before....

post-22401-0-43398500-1322362944_thumb.jpg

 

and after....

post-22401-0-97746900-1322362952_thumb.jpg

 

You might just send that sucker out to Tromix now. Tony has a pretty long waiting list.

 

Can't wait for June 2012. I'll convert it soon and when I'm ready for a SBS - send it to Tromix.

 

>>> So the fact it is an older model doesn't pose any unique issues I should know about?

>>> Is it worth getting the barrel cut down a few inches?

If you want to pay the tax ($200.00) and wait 90 days or more for you gun and get the local sheriff to sign off on it!!!

If you want to skip the fingerprints, passport photos, and LEO signoff.... start an NFA trust. My asshole Sheriff won't sign for anyone that isn't one of his butt buddies, or give a logical reason for why he won't, for that matter.

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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those are good mags. The one I have works flawlessly. I would give you about the same for your messed up Izzy mags, since I want to magwell modify a few.

 

Something in my nature prevents me from getting rid of mags - even ones that don't work. They normally go in a drawer and keep all my obsolete/unwanted holsters from getting lonely.

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me neither, but it was worth a shot. I just sold 3 of those to pay for my 2nd conversion, and it was painful to see them go. You are the first person I have heard of having problems with the factory magazines cycling.

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