hubel458 6 Posted February 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock. Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work. Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4 ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga. Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup. Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun, and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted March 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length as 3' plastic crimped little long. Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall 10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga. Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above. Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used in wads as opposed to fullbore. Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about 4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have. And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel. Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads. Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs. Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get 85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi instead of 65,000...Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted March 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs. The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case. Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded only a little, and those cases are soft ones. We have big bunch of the sabots here now. All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up. With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting. Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean.. The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness. Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds. Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit... You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun), that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots. It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups, miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best. Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228 THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage. Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included, with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted March 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets. Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr. 2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft 1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around. Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies. If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller. Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp. I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown. To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping. You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good. After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. . More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights. Hit. paper plate at 50 yds. As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun), that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much. For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best. FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50. For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62. Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems. In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5" I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using 480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577" Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228 THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage. Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included. Or $20 for 50 postage included.. .Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order. to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr.. We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr 58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots. Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to get them and get loads working. A little levity in this process.Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted April 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights...... First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots., But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum cushion wads. The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases. Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug. For 440gr max of 55gr Steel For 400gr max of 57gr Steel For 360gr max of 59gr Steel For 490gr max of 52gr Steel. For 510gr max of 49gr Steel For 540gr max of 47gr Steel. I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting. Many of you need to get in on the fun. Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press. Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock for Ruger 77 in 585HE. And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that. Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore.. Whoppee.....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted April 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got tomoney back out of them right way, and seeing as howwe're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots andset up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will tryselling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get thesemoving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we willbe having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug sothe guys can see what we have found that works.Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bagsof sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included, 300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last fewyears all over the internet that bought undersize junk,that wanted good sabots and complained that the onesthey bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heardfrom most of them, So guys see if you got time, pleasehelp us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted May 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2013 The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case, next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture.. Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in. Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case. Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted May 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 (edited) What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help. First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting barrel can start sabot or slug crooked. And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked. On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand which tapers a bit. Easy to see. Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different styles of Minies. Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize 12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like. They still use 50cal slug.. Ed Edited May 26, 2013 by hubel458 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs.. 20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison. Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support. Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr, but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs. Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing 145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big. Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots. Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now. Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread, to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second. TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 We have moved few thousand sabots.More here. Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made. A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585 with the solid turned CEB bullets in them. Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed. Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed Speed..Multiplier 1500------5 1600------5.7 1700------6.42 1800------7.2 1900------8 2000------9 2100------9.8 2200------10.75 2300------11.75 2400------12.8 2500------13.9 2600------15 2700------16.2 2800------17.4 2900------18.7 3000------20 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted July 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that you can get molds for from Lyman, Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter, the best size for the 12ga sabots. A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded, 650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759. It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy. My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759. Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves. Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here. He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns, and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if problems occur go to 4759. What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The 4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the good rifling marks impressed into our sabots. I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components. Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like the faster powder did for him. .. Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet. The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp 180 degree crimp down on top of it. We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case 1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana. Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder. Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps. The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture, single shots and checking couple lever actions. Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted October 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots .Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies and sometimes you have to use different wads.. In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with 12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price, You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass. The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted, straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big run of cases made in a factory. Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds. Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt. The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted December 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun powder but made it much smaller using much more of the slower 4759. There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get them or don't cast their own....... Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch our 585 cases imported for sales there I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case. Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal, 60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet. Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600. Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit inside the hollowbase of the bullet....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted January 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH. Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our 12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use 577 NE bullets also. For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5" Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use 577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases. Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever, and can be run higher pressures and still last forever. You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also. AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon. Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed. It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted January 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size. Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone, so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE 3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to 540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE. And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and cheaper if you cast your own. Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks... In back some of the cases and die sets. Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more on Enfields and others through the winter. Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted February 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers. And case expand a lot and are harder to resize, But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit. So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs. Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case and chamber in regular 12ga chamber. Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit. The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr, and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short case can hold. It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions. These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual 12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to minimum specs so cases don't over expand. In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case, and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED Here is the ytube URL again for our guy shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in. Edited February 23, 2014 by hubel458 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam.... Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug. How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI 24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed. The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases, drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made. And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage, even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. . Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5" model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for slightly longer stroke.Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted April 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals. Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded to match 577NE power. Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels. Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia. It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums. Built by his smith who has a reamer. Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels, Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted August 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2014 Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible... We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks. Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib, fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give good resistance for good ignition. Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585 will go about mach 4. Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted September 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1. If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted October 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. . Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs, and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and 315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells. Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil, to our 585HE the strongest yet. The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the 577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3" and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all over the British Empire, by the tens of millions. Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a 24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And stamp the caseheads 24 ga. For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga. The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made. We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much, with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem. Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH, break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case. Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size. So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power. .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc. Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Do you have a website? What about 410? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted December 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Have a site going to change to cover our 585 stuff.No 410 stuff. Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot, which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a special made hollowed out long roll crimper. Getting some more interest in our 585HE. An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5 cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times. And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using 3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800. Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads. I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. . Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice like me can do..... A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back.. The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE, for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber, and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted February 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about mach 4 with a top load.. Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a bunch of them and so does McGowen. Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH. It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would work in our 12ga sabot.. But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a way to keep them together group wise.Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght, Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug. . There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site; Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings.. https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish. Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs. Enfield in back, you can see it is longer. And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game, necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets. One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum, was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder. They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt. Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds 180gr under a 750gr'. We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter, and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck, if they could have found couple barrels full. But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies, multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions, which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings, and moderate loads, last forever.. For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns, (not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough. To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G, wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help. Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hubel458 6 Posted September 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions. Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH. Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight. Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die and punch it back out. And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads, You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders. We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers. But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17 type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17. RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle powders with all the deterrent on the outside. There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17. Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there, that Nitrochemie made.. Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17. I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140 into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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