Jump to content

12ga, 10ga, 8ga, 4ga FH; 585HE / 700HE; Other Big Bores

Recommended Posts

Here is picture of 4 long cases, top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge

3.5" turned brass 20ga. Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom

a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.





Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs

into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove

which made it possible to crimp that way.





Next pictures shows bullet jackets made from a copper tubing caps.

Caps are the ones they solder on to copper pipes, and they made

a die and punch to form them to a good nose shape and

size. Then they fill them from rear with lead.

Example; 1/2" cap does 700cal and 12ga with

right dies and punches.







Last the 2nd gun we put the 585HE long belted case in,

a Ruger 77 bolt action. it has a heavy 585 cal barrel,

and it is a real strong action....Ed




Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • Replies 145
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have. I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of info and pictures to all

More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.   The first gun of mine to have this case was my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole

amazing! I have seen this one other place online, but forget where...

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets

in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the

roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are

ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,

who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets

pictured have the locked on base that their

other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.

2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper

for doing slugs like these.Ed







We also had RMC make us a long brass 28ga case.

It is 3.25" long as shown in picture. They could be

3" or whatever you would want. The 550 Mag rifled barrels

are perfect bore for them, and we did one

in a Mossy 695 bolt gun, 2nd picture...Added heavy barrel.

It is shown next to a 505 Gibbs brass

case 1st picture to show that it isn't a puny case.

And chamber still fires plastic 28ga like the

new Brenekke slugs just out.Ed





Link to post
Share on other sites

First picture is an RC4 brand slug I see is available

down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.

And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.


And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs

by fellow on NitroExpress forums from a good

double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

This shows the possibilities of working with smoothbores,

rather than not trying to make them work.


3rd picture is a discarding sabot base slug, and with

four discarding sabot carriers, with centered

penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed











In earlier thread I mentioned the long brass 28ga case

we setup. Well here is picture of a revolving 28ga

we will try to get later on and put in heavy barrel

and longer chamber and use brass 28ga cases.Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.


First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,

It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.




Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug

with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.




Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can

get for reloading, and we're finding that these

locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are

giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can

save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in

grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites

Fun stuff. I like big bores, but lack the time to develop gunsmithing skills. I have had to content myself with a vintage 8 gauge (makes shooting trap downright easy) and a 120 year old .500 BPE double rifle that I have yet to hit anything except paper with.


Oh I did own a Serbu 50 BMG a decade or so ago. It was a hoot but gave me a headache if I fired more than a dozen cartridges in a sitting so I swapped it off.


Congrats on finding a way to enjoy the big toys - have fun! smile.png

Edited by Groovy Mike
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.


First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,

with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube

groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't

quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown

in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.




Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take

57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM

Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the

REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot

with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal

640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat

case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.

Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.


Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,

fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it

fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.




Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and

the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we

and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high

speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too

much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing

50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs

at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at

the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.

Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug

better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in

smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug

is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to

be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot

offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy

problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.


Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured

12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,

and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have

huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think

is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs

which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.

It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,

many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles

or in sabots if we can find some.ED





Link to post
Share on other sites

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types

and locked on base types.


First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch

I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in

tight, into the base.




Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using

buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead

slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.

The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.


And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga

Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have

many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.


Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of

discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga

Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,

and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass

3.5" RMC cases.




Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs

in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black

is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .

The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.

I wish the BPI was full size like the others

and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........




Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various

50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of

a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr

Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter

loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of

the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed





Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Some more slug setups and ideas.


First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without

locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.

It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base

counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug

I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.

Shown with BPI powder cup seals.






2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.

With corresponding length cases they were designed for.






3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and

1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.

A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these

too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.

These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.






4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style

58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.



Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.

First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.

They look like Berdan primed. Run from

36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.




Second is a paper case clad with

thin brass nearly to the top.




Third is picture of paper case crimped into

the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one

pictured above with a Dixie slug.




Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea

that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.

A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal

slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.


For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones

that have been available, for reloading guys. That

the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy

at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in

most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much

more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have

had to work with.


I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase

Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from

heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at

30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.

Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.

Can be loaded faster.


No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder

than witches ---, and no time.

I am trying to find who makes these.There are

about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,

with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot

section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the

slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower

powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier

so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs

isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore

accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.

This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original

setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried

it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup

seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..

Slug is .629" diameter.




Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with

the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving

nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.




Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.

Man what nice old guns.




Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for

close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which

might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of

sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are

like ones we want to get made for reloading.

They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.

I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled

barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.

Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.

The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow

base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they

have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should

make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.




Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two

different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart

I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.

All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always

near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal

cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore

test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and

the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect

system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show

and magnify difference between the two wad setups..


What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent

weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that

sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.

That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.

Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger

percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no

cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion

disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.

The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot

both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.




Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up

with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.




Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)

around the net. We are very happy with the response and help

we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help

to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into

the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,

reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.

All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.

And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being

being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go

over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,

third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate

Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been

looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that

can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.

If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as

high as others who have to set up complete machines.

We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones

made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to

have similiar design as the ones pictured below

but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots

with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show

what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.

With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal

Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.

We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5

58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,

as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for

58cal cast slugs, by different companies.

The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs

and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.

40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.




Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr

Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my

585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how

fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in

my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.

They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.

Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.




Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style

break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style

break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on

actions like this and great value for no more

than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.

We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can

use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are

working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield

type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier

smooth barrels.




Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,

a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.

2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express

on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job

on nice looking slug gun.Ed








Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different

58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of

sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie

Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.

Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading

slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.


Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")

Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs

Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.

Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.

And they are all good slugs at a saving especially

when folks cast their own.


I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading

suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a

quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.




From the research on sabot patents and testing by various

of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy

at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how

to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases

for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need

to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not

fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in

regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,

they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't

have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs

for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover

a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing

their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive

factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much

more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,

one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from

a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.

Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of

different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting

friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making

the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.

Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than

modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.




Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action

we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like

the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,

an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,

to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have

setup on NEFs, and CBCs.




Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,

and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.

Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like

all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels

and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the

extra weight.







Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well

and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.

The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.

The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.

We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these

style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the

aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some

due the economy.






Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.

Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.

And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we

want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.




4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot

gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.

It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern

20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed







Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.

In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder

and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is

shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed

you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important

wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as

straight as possible for accuracy.


Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best

velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift

which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the

slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom

of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed

sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight

fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals

with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.








Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore

with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.




Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the

"Lethal" and the "destructor".





5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled

barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

I think we found good overall sabot design that will

be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals

and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.

It is same simple design as the ones pictured above

but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact

for more room for our slow powder loads, and when

using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning

which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges

of slower powder, better velocity with less case

expansion, and more reloads possible.


We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots

for penetration until now.. They did very well,

two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried

timber, pushing out some wood on the back.

Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great

for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.

Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is

nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked

that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.

Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,

and cast harder for any need.And compared to other

way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once

we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing

bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel

leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs

compared to short fullbore ones....



Here are pictures of molds that can make cast

58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working

on.There are many makers and brands and styles

of molds and weights available.







Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase

lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore

I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base

bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.

The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold

like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the

diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.





Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.

Great looking gun..Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want

to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,

with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.

In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead

alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on

exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through

a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be

gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.

They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.

I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in

2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range

from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them

down to 350 gr and less.






Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out

of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,

and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on

to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how

it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have

here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.




In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style

gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most

all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.

Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom

lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.

Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one

in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put

on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..




Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula

for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,


You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by


the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.


Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--

all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.

The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.

The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.


The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.

The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.

The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.


The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.

Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder


But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder

it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.


AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,

heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder

at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.

Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two

in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding

58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform

to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help

for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.

We are working on it.





Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a

thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first

load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows

great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better

in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP

guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.





Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way

they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many

others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist

and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting

the accuracy.





On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long

case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea

I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.



Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.


Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.

The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in

36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like

butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.


Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip

in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.

This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug

More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.

For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with

deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end

heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..

Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.


I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush

down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of

the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.

Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would

allow it to tip or go off center.




Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and

700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to

50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.




Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the

stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed



Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch

barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie

in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate

5 for 5. Going 2000fps.


Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,

10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.

A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with

58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..

And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.

Bertram getting ready to make the last die;

done later this month and will be doing cases then.

Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.

He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as

I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship

by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had

a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a

real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.

I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.

I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,

to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get

100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.

I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets

and get it to me and I send them on to him.

I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to

the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.

Want to make the run as big as possible. Got

money ready to go for over 700.

Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a

two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a

little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.

Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled

barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round

balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.

Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,

muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x

seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,

and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and

added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel

16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed



PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.

He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run

as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on

first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to

me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,

no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain

compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved

enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.

My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres

make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.

We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US

due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............



Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 months later...

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots

soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..

We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run

for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch

this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info

if your interested contact me.


We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums

and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and

58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug

load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and

also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of

commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"

470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.

That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.


Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth

super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.

Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.




Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a

heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..

I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just

to show all the uses the case has.




I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.

It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.

I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in

a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed






Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar

It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,

with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.




Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE

cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.

They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.

He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000

with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first

shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,

so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.

Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.


This case can be used in different style guns.,

Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.

Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.

Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here

is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,

we just got done.





I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,

etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real

tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we

fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted

ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.


First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,

and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..

Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp

what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,

they don't need a special holder.


In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are

in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,

which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..

The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.

He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads

that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing

these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime

we get money built up for an order..Ed









Link to post
Share on other sites
First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.
Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

Next is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last picture, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed
Link to post
Share on other sites
In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load

various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've

seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we

are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.

You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.

And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.

CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo

that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal

muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the

volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.

And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.

. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not

needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.

It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.

Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.

There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is

54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum

jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety

of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough

to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in

CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.

Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.

Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..



Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong

singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,

and the Magtech 199 shown above.


Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.

We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with

the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads

with a interchangeable chokes. Ed


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW

wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.

We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just

shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.

Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..

We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it

in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman

12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a

SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make

bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.


I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE

case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one

on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed

the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the

unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving

room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.


Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going

to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder

and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,

Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,

and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.

As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga

card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.

There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can

stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that

was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.


Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.

It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers

like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .

It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn

deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter

cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super

heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging

peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in

BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".

And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to

be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller

45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.

This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into

them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500

they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same

combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on

right is factory SPW.


Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this

12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of

Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.

That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug

in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly

short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.

Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.


Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585

barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the

back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed


As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up

24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use

reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load

say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card

and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about

airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you

can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real

speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
  • Create New...