12ga, 10ga, 8ga, 4ga FH; 585HE / 700HE; Other Big Bores

[hubel458 6]

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up

and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead

roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on

bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with

screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube

with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4

ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.

Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie

slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going

about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,

and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as

the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in

the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we

get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed

these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length

as 3' plastic crimped little long.

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall

10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit

VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.

Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in

a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used

in wads as opposed to fullbore.

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE

cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE

guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to

make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire

in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about

4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.

And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed

for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the

newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be

possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.

Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light

barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.

Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of

what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load

.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the

Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get

85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi

instead of 65,000...Ed

[hubel458 6]

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch

of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr

Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is

perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all

stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower

powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.

Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded

only a little, and those cases are soft ones.

We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.

With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.

Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the

bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom

is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many

other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the

sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.

Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.

Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under

slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the

curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.

It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many

shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,

miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,

with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.

Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt

solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.

2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft

1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie

Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale

on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.

Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.

If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two

hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr

and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with

white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.

I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in

smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.

To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.

You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the

sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps

will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .

More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.

Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher

velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.

For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier

for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.

Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences

and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"

I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using

480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks

and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"

Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.

Or $20 for 50 postage included..

.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus

WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..

We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr

58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to

get them and get loads working.

A little levity in this process.Ed

[hubel458 6]

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......

First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip

Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as

the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel

headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal

slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,

But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum

cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a

base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of

Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.

Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left

fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel

For 400gr max of 57gr Steel

For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.

For 510gr max of 49gr Steel

For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a

bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.

Many of you need to get in on the fun.

Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is

perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light

barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra

springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made

for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on

the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock

for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so

in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next

to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.

Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..

Whoppee.....Ed

[hubel458 6]

The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got to
money back out of them right way, and seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will try
selling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get these
moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

[hubel458 6]

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,

next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder

as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..

Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and

the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the

top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases

at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case

mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling

impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel

straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that

we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that

will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

[hubel458 6]

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.

First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot

bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting

barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if

base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real

tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.

On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand

which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball

flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different

styles of Minies.

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize

12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use

for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about

where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.

They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

Edited May 26, 2013 by hubel458

[hubel458 6]

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..

20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,

but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our

sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing

145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like

having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the

puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.

Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,

to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.

TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

[hubel458 6]

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.

Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US

and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet

of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585

with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy

of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.

Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list

and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier

1500------5

1600------5.7

1700------6.42

1800------7.2

1900------8

2000------9

2100------9.8

2200------10.75

2300------11.75

2400------12.8

2500------13.9

2600------15

2700------16.2

2800------17.4

2900------18.7

3000------20

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that

you can get molds for from Lyman,

Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,

the best size for the 12ga sabots.

A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,

650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure

Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left

straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all

the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

[hubel458 6]

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in

the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel

and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.

It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.

Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and

the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.

Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using

IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him

go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of

EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,

and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in

sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using

Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if

problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and

wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of

sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface

of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The

4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed

with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of

way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into

the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the

good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems

across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just

the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for

wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun

building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon

a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with

black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is

an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks

impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt

he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like

the faster powder did for him.

..

Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over

the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.

The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp

180 degree crimp down on top of it.

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but

they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case

1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.

Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.

The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs

We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,

single shots and checking couple lever actions.

Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

[hubel458 6]

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots

.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of

brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner

Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies

and sometimes you have to use different wads..

 

 

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with

12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between 

seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down

evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

 

 

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case

I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps

I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.

The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it 

in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into

couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted, 

straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big

run of cases made in a factory.

 

 

 

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi

in 3" case, Going about 1700... ..   4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.

Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.

The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length

with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as 

they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our 

sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared

to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun

powder but  made it much smaller using much more 

of the slower 4759.

 

 

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and

other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans

on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get

them or don't cast their own.......

Contact is-   jeff.a.white at gmail.com

If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch

 our 585 cases  imported for sales there

 

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long

barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to

the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.

 

 

Here is picture of  section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,

60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet. 

Actual powder wt  is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.

Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel

barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit

inside the hollowbase of the bullet....Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.

Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our

12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use

577 NE bullets also.

 

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5" 

Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use

577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper 

than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style

forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.

Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,

and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.

You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

 

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here,  more  

will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 

that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,  

1 to 20 twist.  And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly 

Minie bullet guns, and  bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

 

Here are couple  pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice 

walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.

It is an  Enfield and has single stack magazine.

 

 

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a

Mossy 390 frame,  .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.

Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,

so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass

cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE

3" brass.  Really make a hairy  24ga using the 440gr to

540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet

mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that

would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and

turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.

And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep 

saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and

slug choices in the .585 size, easy  to find,  than any other 

caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and

cheaper if you cast your own.

 

 

 

Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.

Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.

Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...

In back some of the cases and die sets.

 

 

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil

reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with

the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels, 

1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper 

to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more on Enfields

and others through the winter. Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases

but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than

plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.

And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,

But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits 

those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

 

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length 

backbore job,  of .850" bore or bigger you could use

the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.

Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case

and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

 

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length

backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads

under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.

The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr, 

and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum 

pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short

case can hold. 

 

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.

These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than

others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns

to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual

12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to 

minimum specs so cases don't over expand. 

In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,

and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the ytube URL again for our guy

shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a

pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

 

Edited February 23, 2014 by hubel458

[hubel458 6]

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop

the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works

 good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut

plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight

fit, use spot of glue inside,  glue that is for foam....

Trim off the  foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.

 

 

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on 

top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga

and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI

24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great

in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and

wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.

The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with

the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,

drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.

And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single

shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage, 

even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII,  bolt action JC Higgins. .

 

 

Here is picture  Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH,  it is 3.5"

model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it

feeds/ejects through lengthened port  3" brass 24ga cases we

made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the  bolt  for 

slightly longer stroke.Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.

Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded

to match 577NE power.

 

 

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels

as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys

have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

 

 

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.

It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.

Built by his smith who has a reamer.

Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three

reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and  585HE

and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

 

We are now working  a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture

of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same

bore barrels. Main use difference,  24ga FH  easy setup in break 

actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

 

 

Picture of  non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 

458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that

was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit 

in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib, 

fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give

good resistance for good ignition.

 

 

Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452"   45cal pistol

 bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With  250 gr bullet in 585

will go about mach 4.

 

 

Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use  rubber

coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being  

too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and

we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

 

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

 

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

 

 

 

 

I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise,  figuring out an

extractor is a  problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga

one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger

than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one

on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of 100 cases  loaded with CEB solid nose bullets

and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat

or wide hollowpoint. .

 

 

Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,

and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve

sealing under what are heavier loads.  The balls are .600" and

315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

 

 

 

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro

Express rimmed case,  that many big game hunters like, usually

set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga

size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati  with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid

shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses

off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,

 to our 585HE the strongest yet.

 

The 577NE is an offshoot of  24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went

eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short 

cases and black powder,  cases built like shotgun cases, called the 

577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, 

then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"

and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet

of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet

diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns

and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed

and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider 

was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all

over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

 

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a

24ga FH, a  slight regression to earlier times, by  taking 577NE brass, and

reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And

stamp the caseheads 24 ga. 

 

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing 

the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions,  and finding

reasonable price  rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.

The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are 

about a third the cost of  600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.

We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,

with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

 

Info about the power in  types of guns  normally set up with 24ga FH,

break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug 

goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.

Now  using the better, heavier 3"  brass we got, we can increase speed

to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles 

energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel

gun, gets us  near  2  1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the

actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.

So makes  relatively smaller bore  shotgun, 24ga,  with  458WIN power.

.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

 

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga

and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

 

[patriot 7,197]

Do you have a website?

What about 410?

[hubel458 6]

Have a site going to change to cover our 585 stuff.No 410 stuff.

 

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super

sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple

middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,

which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the

sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a

special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

 

 

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.

An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm

PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5

cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases

being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes

like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

 

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr

spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using

3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.

Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place

where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where

steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

 

 

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the

actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .

Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by

cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on

inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like

Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice

like me can do.....

 

 

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr

ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr

to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..

The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,

for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,

and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH

here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds  .451/.452" light 

bullets 225 to 300 gr.  A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil

but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about 

mach 4 with a top load..

 

 

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. 

It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow 

sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of  .980". we   got a

bunch of them and so does McGowen. 

 

 

 

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.

It is .585" diameter and  650 gr and these particular ones are a

hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as

hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would

work in our 12ga sabot..

 

 

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they

can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture

of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. 

Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. 

 

 

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a

way to keep them together group wise.Ed

 

 

[hubel458 6]

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the 

recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

 

 

Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga  dangerous

game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

 

.

 

There is  couple 585 videos  on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;

Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1,  that was done in Australia.It was  set up

for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the

first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can

go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

 

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos

 

 

Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the

style of a CZ stock and metal will be  finished with a Gun Kote finish.

 

 

 

 

Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a

singleshot test gun.  We used a composite stock we

adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.

 Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

 

 

And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is

just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire

forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

 

[hubel458 6]

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by

target rounds like the  necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,

necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but  the following one was way

 before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

 

One of  first  modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2,  the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,

was first mentioned in the fifties,  It was made from BMG brass shortened  to 2.70" long 

and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked

down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder. 

 

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe  fit 98 Mauser bolt.

Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as  

shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under 

a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case,  where our 585HE holds 

180gr under a 750gr'.

 

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base 

and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter, 

and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did  

big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but

maybe  back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case,  by shortening the neck,

if they could have found  couple barrels full.

 

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,

multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,

which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular,  long bolt action, or 

falling blocks, break actions, etc, a  585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,

and moderate loads, last forever.. 

 

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,

(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite 

gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough. 

 To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,

wildcatted  to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys

with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help. 

 

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

 

[hubel458 6]

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.

Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.

Guys cut the back off of  750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.

 

 

Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side  for our 12ga 

sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in

sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in

 sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die

and punch it back out.

 

 

 

And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,

You know we like to use the  rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders. 

We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where

we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large

diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.

But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17

type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR  4759 and the RE17.  

RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control

speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle

powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

 

There are some out there  made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes

RE17, RE26, RE33, etc,  for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS'  brand available

for those in UK and Europe, They are called  RS 40, about same speed

as RE12,  RS 50 & 52,  same speed as RE15,  RE60 & 62 same as RE17.

Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder  called  TR140 available  over there,

that Nitrochemie made..

 

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.

I'd like to get some of  RS 40-50-52 powders or V V  TR140 

into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed