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12ga, 10ga, 8ga, 4ga FH; 585HE / 700HE; Other Big Bores

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Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,


Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double

as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than

the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.

Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around




Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE

in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First  laminated  thumbhole stock.

Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail

like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.

The scope rail is a piccatiny type.






The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil

block ahead of recoil inleting  for the longer action, drill new screw hole

Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.


About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the

sporterizing, welding  bottom metal straight. Many think straightening

is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig

with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old

extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.

When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind

the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.

The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!

Just keep on building...Ed




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I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have. I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of info and pictures to all

More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.   The first gun of mine to have this case was my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole

amazing! I have seen this one other place online, but forget where...

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by

a guy in Canada.  Its straight back,  high comb

stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed





About our 2.17"  585 BB  case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.

It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.

With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.

Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.

One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with

Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,

to simulate pistol  recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case

that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet. 

Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.

Or rolling block rifles and  pistols...Gonna try one  in 1887.

Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..



In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.

By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....

Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site. 





Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.

On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down

and shape it so  debth of the pocket matches bottom section of

weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.

Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight

like a compact UTG sight...Ed


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A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..

That is neat term , and very glad  that folks are catching the big bore fever.
Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
 I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat 
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.
Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys  put in the MPI stock..
Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF
On straight sided cases  like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.
So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small 
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads, 
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed
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Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding

a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.

This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.





Here is  video by Corlanes Sporting,  Dawson Creek, BC, CAN. 

Known as,  Rocky Mtn Rifles,  video on Youtube of them testing our

585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are

shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..



 Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,

the second they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .

AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.

Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for  585HE.. 





Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked  into it,

chambered for our 585 BB  2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle

with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to

put case in leverguns,  autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed


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Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.

I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.




The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest,  that we

we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked

in them like .585" bore for 585HE  and  24ga FH.. One that is close

that we have, is the Magtech.


 Well the guys have  found one that is super strong lockup and  looks 

real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel, 

soon  be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH,  the little brother of the 585HE.


We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,

for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.





Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that  Bret and Darrel in Minn

set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job.. Ed




Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver

rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;

Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed


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We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,

Kind of a neat suppressor,





Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.





Here is another  view of what we feel is a nearly perfect 

break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.





Here is picture of a  585HE  MRC PH a guy set up..





Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc, 

 with a variety of bullets..Ed




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Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.




Here is old  catalog picture of different stuff used in old days

for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases




Here is picture of a MN  a guy is  doing 585HE in..

It is singleshot. Redid  bolt handle mounted it on the bolt 

further bac, so the port could be lengthened  for our long case.

Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.




Here is another picture of the 585HE with great looking stock.

Nice looking wood. Ed



Edited by hubel458
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There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with

locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.

Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.


Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.





Here  is another view of  the great camo job on the 

585HE Enfield,  a top view.  Ed


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Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver


wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.


Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga  one BPI has.







Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.


It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading, 


by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a 


Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported 


the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us,  through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB. 







That action similar to  Lawton we had and neighbor got,  that won the King Of The


2 Mile shoot at Whittington,  with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,


 from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right. 


He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..


Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.







Here is picture of a case a Trex owner made using our 585 brass, by putting


a piece of 11/16 tubing ,cut a piece 2/10 of an inch long with a tube cutter chamfered 


the cut side a bit  and tapped it on  the case down to the belt with the brass pipe 


and fireformed  it in the T Rex chamber.......Made a  perfect fitting case.  


Cut  our brass to 3" to fit shorter trex specs. He was out of brass


and couldn't find more, so he invented his own. Our rim still big


enough so the extractor on his gun worked ok.Ed. 




Edited by hubel458
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We have heard that  fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, is working


with  Bertram in making a run of the full length  12ga From Hell cases.


 Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims. 


Any wanting to get some, and get in on the run,  contact Bertram


at the email -----    b.bertram1@bigpond.com    ...... 






Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......


 .375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets. 


Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,


 Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms


 muzzle brake. Lawton  Action. Lethal Precision  his own  gunsmith  shop,  will make


these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..



Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target, 


a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.


The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps). 







Here is  585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy  Varmint Stock. These are super strong.


The  butts of these can easily be weighted.  Couple guys doing them.......  Ed











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Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan 


Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.





Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering


for our case as it came from production line,.





 I like Hogue stocks,  but they aren't made for singleshots.


We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and  585HE.


Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted


a Hogue  1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and 


handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,



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Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in

a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.



Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book

published  in Oct, now out for sale,





We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made  by necking down our 585 HE.

The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different 

shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch

guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,

testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile

shoot last year really got the interest booming for  375 necked from our case,


Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed 

A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then

 pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.


I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.


When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,

 held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE

the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.


So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,

below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,


Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff  same thread,

 reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,


After priming, loading in the powder charge, we  carefully start(boat tail makes it easy) 

 bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated

 perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating 

bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.


These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice 

bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special  dies. 

Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.


OVER 900 375HE  cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another 

 bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more. 


All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,

for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed




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Here is picture of  one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in


Africa with  our 24ga FH he did on a NEF,  in 2nd picture









Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that


are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind


from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600  on


another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere, 


We  also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with


lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700, 


Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed


to get that, and have info where to get powders.  Reamer prints are


at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed



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Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing  585 HE


they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from


ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel  would be


 over  2900,  14000 ft lbs with full load..






Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.


Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is  400gr bullet.





Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.


So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.





Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die, 


test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs. 


When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys


Soon will have  408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,


Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for


our  bigger case .Ed




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Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded

hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance

for  the expanding slug.





Here is the  before and after of  375 HE cases    

necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed





Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting

with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.

Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.

Holds over  280 gr ball powder under bullet. The

 3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,

1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.


416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,

470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..

Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel

to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.

A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit. 




Here is picture of  the 416 HSM fireformed once, 

next to bmg case we make it from and as we 

improve wildcatting process next few weeks 

some specs may make small changes, now from 

base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..






Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE

He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.

We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, , 

Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,

PM or email. ph 989-644-5228.. 


Here are final specs for 416 HE.

Length 3.32",  belt diameter  ,655",  base dia  .635" , 

length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
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Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for  28ga and

410 ga and  32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.

They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with

our 585 case in the action.Guys can get  Magtech brass cases or have

 RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,

410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..




Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original

BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have

enough thickness in the sides to handle  high pressure,

in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting 

work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.

We have lots of 585s,  375HEs,  416 HEs,  408 HEs.....

And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.




Here's comparison of  416 target cases, 1st  416 HE,  have whole bunch. 

Second is model of what I'd have made  on  medium machine, if I could,  

the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of  230gr.. 

Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg

cases, And if  had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 .. 





Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul

 Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in  

375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very  similiar to 375HE )...

 It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide. 


Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,

 weekend 10-13th  at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.

Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE

Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed
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The 12ga FH case  now is in the new COTW book on

last  page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.

They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that   case....



The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,


has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,


on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..





More info out now;  short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.

Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case

 proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........

 and  debth of  the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture  below..

My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.


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Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case

made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed





Here is picture of 375 HE left,  416 HE next,  416 HSM right..





Here, tentative specs,  416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,






A  375  HE,  with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....




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A 585 HE ...shot  with moderate heavy load......




Here is a 375 HE target gun  set up, by Asteroid Precision...





Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,


bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's  just getting started


and is checking on  better powder, Ed..




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Here is recap simple setup  to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming  chamber
 in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5"  12ga reamer, that isn't
 something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or
get 3.5"  brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and
our slower powder loads you can get a  quarter more speed,
which gives 50% more eneregy...
585 Hubel Express  video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy  load,  gun little light.....
Another view of  Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,
Here is our  416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed
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Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making


our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed





We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action


between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE, 


375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our  416 HSM without


having to do extreme rebating of the rim.



Here is picture of 620   416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,


that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove. 


There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we  have


1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..


This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make


them we can give the steps involved...Ed.



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For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416  easier to get powders to work with,  less problems ..

Maybe building a target gun,don't have  375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....


We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...

CEB and others will have bullets...CEB  will be doing .416 in  450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr


Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as  585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer, 

 did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper,  .021" per 

side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k.. 


I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is 

no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30. 


And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or 

more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually 

hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking.. 


And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have 

15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..





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Here is a drawing depicting the layout of  thick and thin sided cases,

like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.


And my 585 case is not perfect,  as where it transitions from the

heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there

shortening  case life. There are others made that way including brand X.

The dotted line is what it should be............




Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they 

stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and 

don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move

 it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.


Here is picture of  six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE

and 6th is thick sided version. 1st  600  OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added




In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run. 

Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE,  but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness, 

not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they  last forever as 585s......


 Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner 

and sharp transition from the corner, tested  20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads

as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get  10 hot loads, and necked down to

416/375  4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent,  factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.
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Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base  diameter up from Nyati.He said,

'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I 

could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''


Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585

size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi. 


Another just sent us,  thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,

416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's  375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck  over 45k psi.


Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't

stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more 

speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be  4- 4.5  inches long..


. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,

 contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should

 be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter. 


Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have 

same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the

 side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,

 just by grinding off sharp transition corner.  Then sides would be perfect.., .





Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,

using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed






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