S12 slug select

[sickness 89]

A buddy and I set up 12 numbered targets today. 6 of them were inside 20 yards, the other 6 dotted here and there out to 100 yds. The non-shooter drew numbered poker chips out of a hat and called them out, the shooter was to engage that numbered target. Targets inside 20 yds were to be engaged with buckshot, those out further with slugs.

 

I taped two 10rd stick mags together, and ran one with buck and one with slugs and swapped between them as needed. As has happened before, I got owned by my buddy with his 870. But he knows not to bother racing me when all the targets are at close range.

 

So, as we all should know.. the S12 owns close range. The pumps are much more versatile though for defending out to 100 yds or so.

 

I really, really dislike this fact. So I started thinking about ways to change it.

 

My current thinking is to modify a magazine. Dremel out a channel in mag so that the follower is exposed, and fasten some sort of handle or tab to the follower. This channel might also function as a window for counting rounds, which would be nice.

 

Now, the slug select drill becomes:

 

Pull back the bolt and lock it in place.

Pull down the tab on the mag to ease spring tension.

Feed in the slug into mag

Release mag tab, and release bolt.

 

Alternatively, those last two steps might better be:

 

Feed slug into chamber

Release bolt, and release mag tab

 

I haven't gotten around to breaking out the dremel yet, still playing with it in my hands trying to figure where the channel and mag tab/handle should be.

 

I'd appreciate comments, either on the ergonomics of what might work best, entirely different mods (to mag, or even the gun), or potential problems I've overlooked, etc.

 

I really want to trounce my friend and his 870, dammit.

Edited December 2, 2011 by sickness

[RED333 1,025]

So you have to swap between slug and "00" as fast as you can?

Leave mag out, Put the stock in the crook of your hip, pull back bolt, load round in chamber, releace bolt, aim and fire.

If you are left handed as I am it is a snap, however right handed might be tuff.

[super jim 14]

Profiled bolt will allow mag loading with bolt closed.

 

So:

 

Drop mag (entended mag latch)

 

Fire chambered shell to clear the one you don't want (bolt hold open on last round would help)

 

Load new mag (no need to lock bolt open with modified bolt)

 

Rack and fire.

 

The little rock & lock tap will help guide the mag. Or better yet, extended mag well.

 

Lots of room for improvement. Go get him.

[rnemhrd 165]

What is he doing feeding one shell at a time. If thats the case get a LRBHO. Your bolt will be ready for the next drop in. I can't see him emptying a tube mag and re loading faster than you can change mags.

[Shadoh 16]

Use slugs on both )

[netpackrat 566]

Just switch out the mag for one full of slugs. I can't realistically envision a scenario, where I would want to have one slug on tap, where I would not be even happier with a full mag of slugs on tap.

[TARE 47]

I think your modification although imaginative is very likely to lead to problems in reliability. I would love it it you tried and it worked for you, but I would spend my efforts practicing reloads.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2QZSvcDczQ

[gunfun 3,931]

cool.nice to know the series is out there. It looks like they know their stuff, but it is sad to see them do all their strategy around 5rd mags. At least 8 shot russians, if you are afraid to go aftermarket. I bet they've spent the cost of bigger mags in ammo working on their mag drills. I know that practice pays off, but common, the main point of a saiga is improved capacity and reload time.

 

I would say that if this is that big a deal to you, the better route would be LRBHO and a magwell. Or even just the magwell. Rock'n'lock sucks.

 

You want speed, don't hack up your mags. (from the side anyway.) Watch those videos that guys like R&R or Jack Travers do.

Edited December 3, 2011 by GunFun

[sickness 89]

Fast mag changes are not the problem. I have a reprofiled bolt already and can load on a closed bolt. I don't mind rock-and-lock for this purpose, because I need to keep a hand on the mag anyhow so that I can flip it around to the other type of ammo.

 

Doing it quick is fine.. the problem is that I really have to do it TWICE to maintain the edge/versatility of a shotgun.

 

Lets say I have a mag full of buck, I nail a close target, and the next called shot is far away. I now have to flip the mag, and rack it to get to a slug. I now have to do this again to get back to buck.

 

Just running slugs is dumb. I now have a 10 shot "rifle" that isn't even very accurate. If I'm going to think that way, I should be grabbing a carbine with a 30+ rd mag.

 

Now, for the purposes of the DRILL, this desire to flip back to buck after a slug is artificial - since we don't know the order the targets are coming up in, and we very well might need two slugs in a row anyhow. But the exercise is meant to train you to hold down an area at close quarters (hence primarily running buck) while engaging targets of opportunity at greater distances with a slug select. Having the buckshot on tap to deal with close-in targets quickly is desirable, reaching out with slugs can take a bit of extra time.

[sickness 89]

I think your modification although imaginative is very likely to lead to problems in reliability. I would love it it you tried and it worked for you, but I would spend my efforts practicing reloads.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2QZSvcDczQ

 

I'm quite happy with my reload time, and will continue to practice them regardless of whether I hack up a mag or two This video is OK, but I prefer to keep pairs of mags taped together with buck and slugs. I don't see the point in throwing away a mag of buck if I don't have to. But yeah.. it is pretty standard to just switch between mags of the two types as needed for ammo select purposes.

 

It's not terrible, because if you switch to slugs to engage a target at 75 yds, and then have to quickly engage another at 25 yds, slugs will certainly do the job at both ranges.. but it also isn't optimal.. you have to be more precise with the slug.

 

It would be nice to have a more versatile ammo select procedure, is all I'm saying.

 

I agree that a modded mag might have some reliability issues. I can see two: dust/dirt getting in and binding up the mag easier. This doesn't seem to affect other mags that have windows in them all that much. The bigger problem is that something (a strap or sling?) could catch the tab on the follower and prevent it from feeding when you don't expect it.

[sickness 89]

Just switch out the mag for one full of slugs. I can't realistically envision a scenario, where I would want to have one slug on tap, where I would not be even happier with a full mag of slugs on tap.

 

The way I look at it is this: if I grab a shotgun with buck it is because I expect most of my targets to be within 25 yds or so. Otherwise I'd be using a carbine.

 

Now, when my expectations are not met (I see a single target at 50 yds) - I switch to a mag of slugs. Is this REALLY warranted? No. I now engage that target, and maybe I'm back to business as usual with targets inside 25 yds .. but now I'm handicapped with, say, just 9 projectiles available .. when what I SHOULD be doing is making a wall of lead with 9 projectiles per trigger pull.

 

If my expectations turn out to be entirely wrong, and I find my targets are ALL out at 50 or 75 yds.. sure, I should switch to a mag of slugs. Definitely need a few of those handy.. but I don't like that it is a requirement.

 

I guess it might be an OK solution to have a mag with two slugs up top followed by buck.

 

I just find a pump gun to be all-around more versatile than the S12. I love that it is the king of buckshot, though.

[Marc 147]

why not run a buck-and-ball load like Centurion Multi-Defense for everything?

[sickness 89]

What is he doing feeding one shell at a time. If thats the case get a LRBHO. Your bolt will be ready for the next drop in. I can't see him emptying a tube mag and re loading faster than you can change mags.

 

We are not single feeding. We run buck by default and switch to slugs as required by the drill.

 

First, he can reload an empty tube nearly just as fast as I can pop in a mag - with a pump speed loader. He can't comfortably carry as many of those as I can carry box mags though.

 

But still, he can also top up his tube. When he needs to select a slug, he often will grab two shells at once.. buck and slug, pop the buck in as a top-up, and then the slug for the select.

 

The LRBHO won't help if I have to switch to slugs in the middle of a mag.

 

why not run a buck-and-ball load like Centurion Multi-Defense for everything?

 

Well, for starters even a good slug is going to give you a 6" group at 100 yds. The round ball of a buck and ball round will carry far, but it won't have accuracy to speak up.

 

Second, I have had feeding issues with the Centurion load. I find the tops of the cases are actually sort of oblong at the crimp, and they don't chamber well. Might have just been the batch I had, but I didn't like them for defensive shooting. They sure were fun for fucking up some old wooden pallets though.

[netpackrat 566]

Now, when my expectations are not met (I see a single target at 50 yds) - I switch to a mag of slugs. Is this REALLY warranted? No. I now engage that target, and maybe I'm back to business as usual with targets inside 25 yds .. but now I'm handicapped with, say, just 9 projectiles available .. when what I SHOULD be doing is making a wall of lead with 9 projectiles per trigger pull.

 

If any closer targets present themselves after switching to slugs, then you hit them with slugs. Sucks to be them. You do lose the advantage of the spread of the buckshot, but I think that any extra time that you need to spend aiming for a more precise shot, will be far outweighed by not having to switch ammo types, or introducing potential unreliability through hokey mods. If your goal is to gain an advantage in a game, sure, why not. If you are training for serious use, I would say keep it simple and just keep a mag of slugs you can switch to if necessary. That is what I do. I have a small shoulder bag that I keep with my shotgun with extra mags. At least one of which, and usually two I keep loaded with slugs:

 

 

When I took this picture I was hiking in the vicinity of my cabin, so the second slug mag was loaded in the shotgun.

 

[sickness 89]

 

If any closer targets present themselves after switching to slugs, then you hit them with slugs. Sucks to be them. You do lose the advantage of the spread of the buckshot, but I think that any extra time that you need to spend aiming for a more precise shot, will be far outweighed by not having to switch ammo types, or introducing potential unreliability through hokey mods.

 

I understand. This is my current approach as well. But I'm not happy about losing the advantage of buck and turning my shotgun into a 10rd carbine. Moving targets at 25yds can be hard to hit with a single projectile. With a REAL carbine, this situation is tenable - because you have a much larger capacity. I'm simply looking to improve on this situation, by not giving up an advantage.

 

On an AGP mag, I'd have to dremel out the channel in the side of the mag, which I surely dont' want to do. I'd like to have the channel in the rear.. which won't work on an AGP. No way I'm modding my factory 5 mags though. I might pick up an SGM 8rd to play with.

[grutiantor 0]

what about using turkey or extra-full chokes? not sure on the effective range but its got to be getting out there pretty good with the right loads. im sure its not dead accurate, but if you dont count misses as neg. points, 2 to 3 shots a target is quicker then fumbling with a mag change

[gunfun 3,931]

I tend to agree with the above posts, but a couple of things occur to me.

 

1) buy a cheap promag to hack up. Then you won't feel sad.

 

2)If you are experimenting with 'hokey solutions' why not put a piece of aircraft wire to the follower, going out the floorplate to a keyring or something. then your process could be: 1) yank back bolt with right hand so that you can easily hit your bolt catch/ Fire while holding your BHO with your finger. 2) with mag in place yank cable toward your pistol grip with right hand. end this motion holding both cable and pistol grip, with gun tilted 90* to left. 4) hand feed slug with left hand. 4.5) while your left hand is there, tug the bolt to chamber the round.

 

3) why not switch mags and without ejecting the buck? firing the buck load toward your slug target will be faster than racking the bolt to get the slug into chamber, plus it might do the job that the slug can finish. this saves a step, keeps you more on target more of the time, and sends more lead at your target.

 

Is this for some kind of competition or self defense, or is it for your personal Red Dawn preparedness?

 

For any competition, it seems to me your fastest option is still a dropfree magwell, swaping mags and firing out the shell you don't want to chamber the next. If firing pellets toward a distant target has a penalty, then using a left side charging handle to eject/chamber still has to be way faster than any kind of hand feed. I think it is a mistake to impose the manual of arms for a tube gun on your box fed gun.

[Marc 147]

why not run a buck-and-ball load like Centurion Multi-Defense for everything?

 

Well, for starters even a good slug is going to give you a 6" group at 100 yds. The round ball of a buck and ball round will carry far, but it won't have accuracy to speak up.

 

Second, I have had feeding issues with the Centurion load. I find the tops of the cases are actually sort of oblong at the crimp, and they don't chamber well. Might have just been the batch I had, but I didn't like them for defensive shooting. They sure were fun for fucking up some old wooden pallets though.

 

Well, centurion was just an example...but, what about winchester PDX1 or reloading your own? Stack a 7/8 or 1 oz slug over the top of some #4 or larger buckshot in 3 inch shell...

[gunfun 3,931]

they say actions speak louder than words, so I made a video to show what I mean.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/P9DbLQTY4uTiuJG3Yd4d_-tWeZxXYffez4IYHEVs1ZI?feat=directlink

[gunfun 3,931]

I would also point out that the particular drill limits the whole scenario to the single advantage of his gun. The very narrow scope of the drill seems artificial and weighted to favor his gun in a way that doesn't reflect a firefight. I think a better method is to fit the drill into a bigger more practical scenario.

 

If you included that drill in a scenario such as engaging 4 buck range targets, then 3 slug range then 4 buck again, you would smoke him.

 

Also, if you note in my lame video, I fumbled inserting the first mag, which I normally do much more quickly. I chose not to re-record, because I think that it is good to publish negative results. I know you don't like inserting a mag twice, but I think even with inserting a mag twice, I was about as fast as just adding one shell in a tube gun, and I had a full gun at the end, while your friend has an empty one.

[sickness 89]

 

If you included that drill in a scenario such as engaging 4 buck range targets, then 3 slug range then 4 buck again, you would smoke him.

 

We pull the target numbers at random. When such runs come up, I do indeed smoke him. As a matter of fact, we had one round where he got a long set of slug shots and I got a nearly perfectly staggered close/far run.. and we ended up very close on the times.

 

But, more often than not with a random pull of the numbers, he comes out on top.

 

This is why I say a pump is a bit more versatile. In the best case scenario for both guns, the S12 comes out faster. But on the average case, the pump wins. You might say the S12 is like an indy car and the pump is a Buick. For the particular case of being on a race track, the S12 wins hands down.. but for a randomly chosen driving task, the Buick tends to be more versatile.

 

I kind of like your wire/ring idea. Keeps the mag entirely enclosed, and should be easy to revert (minus a small hole in the floor plate which I could live with). Trouble with it is you'll have the wire dangling when the mag is full.

 

Using a magwell is fast, there is no doubt about that. Rock and lock mag changes can be fast too if you practice knocking the mag out with the fresh mag in hand. The main trouble I have with this isn't so much the speed aspect, as conservation of mags and ammo.

 

Remember, we have a fair number of targets to shoot at, and if a buck/slug/buck/slug run gets pulled out of the hat, thats now three nearly full laying on the ground. I like drop free magwells, and I like kicking out the mag and letting it drop when it is empty .. not real keen on having my ammo at my feet though.

 

That is why I keep two mags of buck and slugs taped up together. I keep my hand on the mag as a foregrip, so swapping out a rock and lock is fast for me. My off hand is already there, and I have the mag in my hand and can maintain control of it if desired, or I can let go, grab a fresh mag and kick out the empty and let it fall. Works well.

 

You guys might be right.. seems like there is no really good way to smooth this out.

Edited December 4, 2011 by sickness

[gunfun 3,931]

Here's doing that with the magwell. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/a7GMO46PnuYkHFRSXx_L0etWeZxXYffez4IYHEVs1ZI?feat=directlink

 

I gave you video of first attempt so as not to bias for my best try. This is gross motor skills and un-practiced. Under pressure of a competition, or a real life or death situation, I trust my hands to be better at fitting a big mag into a big hole a lot better than I trust them to quickly slide three slugs into the tube, fire them, and then slide in one more buck ending with an empty gun.

 

This leaves me with one buck load in chamber, six slugs left in the taped mag, and however many other magazines are left in my belt. There would be one of each type of shell on the ground.

 

For me the most time consuming part was getting the magazine out of my belt. Also grabbing the magazine low enough eliminated a lot of fumbling.

[gunfun 3,931]

Another thought. If not leaving mags on the ground is a high priority, why not get one of those dump pouches with the wide opening? You can grab a full magazine each time, and drop the mag in your dump bag as you go. if you had a pouch for each ammo type, you could even grab the right kind of partly used mag in a hurry.

[Lidocaine Looney 26]

I know that ammo conservation has already been mentioned as well as dropping full mags. With that said, if you were strictly in it for this competition and not in an ammo conservation/tactical scenario, instead of switching mags to change shot, as mentioned above, you could just stagger the load of you mag 1 Slug, 1 Buck, 1 Slug, and so on. Then if you didn't need the next shot type (so you draw two slug shots), you just burn it (the buck shot that is between your slugs) into the ground/down range and you have the shot you want. That'd be the quickest way to accomplish your goal and you wouldn't have to deal with fumbling with anything except mag changes when you run out of ammo. Like I said, not practical for ammo conservation, but for the purposes of this drill/game, I don't see you losing this way or anyone being faster. Even if your friend tried this as well, this would still tip it into your favor with your higher cap mags than your friends tube.

[sickness 89]

Had another quick run with this today on our lunch break.

 

The alternating slug/buck pattern does indeed win the game. Pricey, as a game, to waste buckshot, and not "tactically" sound. Was able to engage all targets essentially as fast as he could pull them out of the hat and read them off. No contest at all with hi-cap stick mags.

 

Also loaded my 10rd mags with 2 slugs up top, followed by all buck. That worked pretty well for the random cases, and it evened up my times. I can probably edge him out handily if I practice it a bit more.. I stuttered a few times with muscle memory from my old way of doing it. Just need to develop the habit of racking out the second slug if it isn't needed, rather than switching the mag back to buck.

 

We also added a variation where we pull two numbers and call both, so you have a heads up for what you need next. That dropped both of our times, naturally, but me a bit more so because he spends more time reloading in general, whereas with the two slugs up top method, I have more than enough buckshot handy.

 

We have a certain begrudging respect for each other's ways of doing things, but we are both interested in getting our hands on a Kel-Tec KSG pump for this sort of thing. The ability to load a tube with slugs and a tube with buck and just flip a switch would be ideal.

[gunfun 3,931]

Congratulations. Think how fast you would be with a left side charging handle and a brass catcher. That would solve your ammo conservation concern too.

 

Those keltecs are pretty neat. I am wondering if they will be able to import the south african bull-pumps that you pump backward now. Those would be interesting to try.

Edited December 6, 2011 by GunFun

[sickness 89]

Congratulations. Think how fast you would be with a left side charging handle and a brass catcher. That would solve your ammo conservation concern too.

 

Thanks! Yeah, it felt good to just tear it up. I've been toying with the idea of a left-side charging handle. I love the idea in principle. I do a lot of off-side shooting and working the controls with my right hand rules.. but I'd want to get them all set up that way, and it gets a bit pricey.

 

Those keltecs are pretty neat. I am wondering if they will be able to import the south african bull-pumps that you pump backward now. Those would be interesting to try.

 

I know what gun you mean, but I forget the name.. yeah, I hope they get brought in. We need to get a petition started or something to get some importers to really take advantage of this year of having the ATF's hands tied.

 

And Kel-Tec needs to get off their ass and get that KSG rolling out. They have a few neat guns, but they are all damn near impossible to find.

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks! Yeah, it felt good to just tear it up. I've been toying with the idea of a left-side charging handle. I love the idea in principle. I do a lot of off-side shooting and working the controls with my right hand rules.. but I'd want to get them all set up that way, and it gets a bit pricey.

 

If you have a bunch of AK s that need Left side charging handles, you must know one guy who is a decent welder. Anyone ought to be able to slot the dust cover them self. You can surely use a grinder and flap wheel to shape some scrap steel into handles. The stock trigger you took off is actually a pretty nice shape. You could do all the prep work and bring them all to a welder friend with good clamps and do several in an hour. Invite him to go shooting afterwards and buy him a six pack when you are done.

[Spyder 2]

Twelve pack is generally the minimum for welding work!

[datrowl 111]

Read most of the way down the whole time thinking to myself, your useing the wrong tool for the job.... what it sounds like you need is that Kel-Tek pump shottie with 2 internal tube mags that hold 7 each.... flip a switch, slug, flip back to buck... use it for your " wall work " and save the Saiga loaded with 20 rounds of 00 for when the zombies make it inside and you have to retreat to the bunker....

 

 

 

just my 0.02