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Help Me Decide Which Red Dot & Mount!!! Quick!


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I honestly can't decide which way to go. I've basically narrowed it down to either the primary arms micro dot or m3.

 

Mount Options

-rs mount for m3

-MI mount that replaces rear sight leaf

-ultimak

-MI Handguard with optic specific mount

 

I know everyone loves the micro dot w/ ultimak, but I hesitate with it or the MI HG b/c 1)I always shoot corrosive and I hear cleaning the gas tube is tough. (am I right?) and 2) b/c I can't shoot with both eyes open(shotgun, handgun, or rifle). I've been told I don't have a dominant eye and my opposit eye always takes over as soon as I raise my sights and loose focus of either my target or sights.

 

So, I really like the idea of more of a rear mounted optic like the rs mount or MI rear sight leaf.

 

I like the rs mount b/c it has a quick disconnect, but don't hear many good reviews of the m3 dot. Everyone loves the micro dot but I don't hear meany good reviews of the MI rear sight leaf mount.

 

SO.....Please tell me your thoughts and ideas!!!! Probably my main concerns with any of these are overall quality, co-witness quality, and durability. I'll take any other suggestions too, but cant really exceed this budget

 

THANKS!!!!

 

P.S. the wife wants to buy one of these for me for christmas asap so shes really hasseling me to stop dragging my feet and make a damn decision!

 

 

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PK-AS..... use it, love it...I'd run mine against anything else out there....no questions asked, its superior IMHO to anything i've ever looked thru

 

 

pk-as_svd_1_600_2.jpg

 

Kalinka, mount and optic 349.00

 

<---- big fan

 

It's more rugged than an Acog, Cowitness not an issue....if the batteries go dead its still useable as it has an etched glass recticle.. and removes in seconds with no loss of zero if you need to use actual irons..quality is far better than that of most anything else you'll run across in the under 1000.00 area

 

 

I'm so sold on em I wish I could buy everyone one.... I have 5 friends that shoot AK... all 5 switched to this from aimpoints and EOtechs.... several other guys at the range i shoot at have made the switch as well after handleing my rifle

 

hell, if ya don't like it, i'll buy it back off ya, I'm always working on a new build here or there that could use one.

Edited by datrowl
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+1 to the PK-AS, it has been my favorite red dot optic until fairly recently. I still really like it and recommend it for the same reasons as Datrowl but there are two optics I think are a bit more modernized.

 

 

These days I prefer 1P76 Rakurs because IMO it's an improved version of PK-AS...always on black german post reticule but tritium illuminated and needs no batteries.

 

 

The other one I really like is the space age 1P63 Obzor. Same concept as the Rakurs...always on reticule for daylight (but not etched like the Rakurs or PK-AS) along with tritium for night shooting.

 

Prices on all of them are about the same. PK-AS typically sits off to the left for the most common version so you can still use irons but 1P76 and Obzor are both QD like PK-AS and can be taken off in seconds.

 

 

PKAS-SLR105PlumLeftPKAS.JPG

PK-AS_Dot.JPG

 

 

1P76 Rakurs and Rakurs A1 (A1 has adjustable diopter)

Rakurs-A1_Rakurs.JPG

1P76_Rakurz_SGL31_GorkaAutumnLeft.jpg

Rakurs_Reticule.JPG

 

 

 

Obzor

1P63Obzor_SGL31-44_Left.JPG

1P63Obzor_Reticule_01.JPG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited by TX-Zen
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knew Tx-Zen would be along soon =o) the man has forgotten more about AK Optics than most of us will ever know.

 

I dig both those man, I just have issues with Tritnum eventually burning itself out.... well....in 20 years or so.... still....I have scopes now that I've had for 20+ years....still good glass. If I knew I could get em replaced every 10 years or so, even at half scope cost, I'd be happier with em....just hate to be 17 years into 20 year scope when the SHTF LOL......yea i know.... i'm a fruitcake, meh

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Tex & Datrowl,

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Tex - didn't I see a post from you a while back with what seemed like an unending collection of russian optics (and rifles for that matter)???? I definitely can trust your opinion after seeing all that own. I can't imagine how many others you have experience with.

 

I've considered the PK-AS and Rakurs but they just seem to sit so high that I feel like it would bug me not getting a good cheek weld (i know, i know, i can add a pad or adjustable stock, but I'm trying to keep it simple). Plus, I'm on a budget and this is my first taste-test of the red dot world so I like the ~$150-200 price with mount and good reviews of those primary arms optics just to get my feet wet and really decide if they're for me.

 

I see a true russian optic to complete the package in the future but I'm starting slow

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No worries about being a tritium fruitcake D smile.pngbeer.gif

 

But I do know someone that has access to tritium and successfully relit a few 1P29 optics including mine. I'm considering asking him to take a go at my Romanian LPS/Tip2 and possibly my ZFK 4x25 because if he's done it once he can probably figure out how to do something else. The Rakurs tritium actually seems to be pretty straightforward, Obzor looks more complicated but I'm betting either one could be done with some yankee ingenuity (or maybe a call to NPZ wink.png )

 

 

 

Z

Edited by TX-Zen
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Tex & Datrowl,

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Tex - didn't I see a post from you a while back with what seemed like an unending collection of russian optics (and rifles for that matter)???? I definitely can trust your opinion after seeing all that own. I can't imagine how many others you have experience with.

 

I've considered the PK-AS and Rakurs but they just seem to sit so high that I feel like it would bug me not getting a good cheek weld (i know, i know, i can add a pad or adjustable stock, but I'm trying to keep it simple). Plus, I'm on a budget and this is my first taste-test of the red dot world so I like the ~$150-200 price with mount and good reviews of those primary arms optics just to get my feet wet and really decide if they're for me.

 

I see a true russian optic to complete the package in the future but I'm starting slow

 

 

If you want to start slow I think the PA dot is a great choice. No one complains about them, customer service is great and they are priced well and seem to be really durable. That and a simple mount like BP02 and you'd be under $200 with a good start to seeing if you like side rail optics...really a great way to start.

 

True combloc optics do take some getting used to because they are higher than what we tend to be familiar with. From what I can see they are designed higher for two main reasons...one, they tend to be more for CQB and my understanding is that higher is easier on the neck (my own experience agrees with this on the move) and two, the Russians use a couple different kinds of helmets with ballistic face shields and from what I am told can't see low optics with the shield down.

 

I think once you get used to the height you'll find they are very fluid and work great, but like you I started slow to be sure I knew what I was doing before I started buying more and more exotic optics. These days I am so used to them I can't really remember what it was like learning about them, but I do know in the early days I had to open my mind some to get the hang of a few of them.

 

 

 

Z

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-rs mount for m3

 

Ding ding ding. Just do it already.

 

I don't like comblock optics. They sit too high. The rs mount with a 30mm tube optic is the way to go, and gives you upgrade options. You can put any 30mm tube optic in it.. down the road, if you decide you want to get a better tube optic, or want tritium/fiber illumination, or whatever you'll always have options in the 30mm world.

 

If you don't like the PA M3 clone, look at the Vortex 30mm optic .. with that you'll get a screw in 2x magnifier to boot in case you want a bit of magnification.

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Sickness - That's the route I'm going. Giving the wife the go-ahead today. You pretty much convinced me in our earlier conversations. I had no doubts about the rs mount but was hoping to get some more positive feedback on the m3 since all I really hear about is the micro dot. But, what the hell, for the price I'm gonna try it out.

 

Thanks for the advise everyone. I'll post some pics after I get it.

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dustfeeder,

I know I'm late to this discussion, but I would suggest that if you want an RS mount, you should wait until next month when the Micro mount will become available. Then you can use a PA microdot with it. Primary advantages over the M3-style optics is less weight and bulk. I can't think of any real advantages of the M3-style over the Micro.

 

A few other thoughts:

- I had a PK-AS and found it very awkward.

- I had the Micro on the Ultimak, and cleaning after shooting corrosive was complicated to the point of it being annoying.

- The MI leaf mount is unproven.

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dustfeeder,

I know I'm late to this discussion, but I would suggest that if you want an RS mount, you should wait until next month when the Micro mount will become available. Then you can use a PA microdot with it. Primary advantages over the M3-style optics is less weight and bulk. I can't think of any real advantages of the M3-style over the Micro.

 

A few other thoughts:

- I had a PK-AS and found it very awkward.

- I had the Micro on the Ultimak, and cleaning after shooting corrosive was complicated to the point of it being annoying.

- The MI leaf mount is unproven.

 

Jim - Is the micro for sure coming out next month? I saw that it was coming but didn't see an eta. If so, I'd probably be down to wait.

 

I've never handled either optics, but from some of the vids and pics I saw, the only advantage I noticed was that it seemed like the m3 in the rs mount co-witnessed better than the micro dot in the MI leaf mount. I wouldn't imagine that the RS micro mount could get any lower that the Mi Mount? Any thoughts?

 

I could be totally wrong considering i didn't see them in person

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Jim - Is the micro for sure coming out next month? I saw that it was coming but didn't see an eta. If so, I'd probably be down to wait.

 

From the manufacturer's Facebook page:

"Working hard on the AKML release - things are looking good for a SHOT timed bulk of product. First units (already spoken for) headed out around Christmas."

 

I've never handled either optics, but from some of the vids and pics I saw, the only advantage I noticed was that it seemed like the m3 in the rs mount co-witnessed better than the micro dot in the MI leaf mount. I wouldn't imagine that the RS micro mount could get any lower that the Mi Mount? Any thoughts?

 

Reports are good so far. I can let you know myself next month. :-)

185467_236368833066842_151408161562910_568394_1510304_n.jpg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzCKXVXgKvU

Edited by Jim Digriz
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dustfeeder,

I know I'm late to this discussion, but I would suggest that if you want an RS mount, you should wait until next month when the Micro mount will become available. Then you can use a PA microdot with it. Primary advantages over the M3-style optics is less weight and bulk. I can't think of any real advantages of the M3-style over the Micro.

 

Jim,

 

I contemplated waiting for the RS micro as well, but ultimately decided to jump onto the 30mm train. The micro-style mount locks you into an Aimpoint T1/H1 style optic and I wanted something a little more flexible. I'm already considering dumping my Aimpoint C3 and going with a Trijicon Tripower.

 

But recall the OP's limitation that he has trouble shooting both eyes open. If he is going to be closing an eye while shooting a red dot, I would think the larger tube / FOV of the M3 style would be a win.

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Plus, I'm on a budget and this is my first taste-test of the red dot world so I like the ~$150-200 price with mount and good reviews of those primary arms optics just to get my feet wet and really decide if they're for me.

 

I see a true russian optic to complete the package in the future but I'm starting slow

 

As this is your first taste of a red dot, keep a few things in mind:

 

Battery life on budget optics isn't that great. Aimpoint kills this problem dead like RAID, and most other quality/pricey red dots get better battery life than the budget stuff too. Also - the dots themselves on budget optics can look blurry and undefined, not so on quality pieces. Finally, there is brightness. In very bright conditions, the dot may wash out even on full brightness; again, this is isn't a problem with something like an Aimpoint. My Aimpoint is so bright on its max setting, that in order for it to wash out you'd necessarily be shooting in conditions so bright that you wouldn't be able to see well anyhow.

 

So, just keep this in mind when you are evaluating your first red dot. If these sorts of issues make you think "I'm just going back to irons" consider that a better made optic may solve your issues.

 

Good luck.

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  • 1 month later...

+1 to the PK-AS, it has been my favorite red dot optic until fairly recently. I still really like it and recommend it for the same reasons as Datrowl but there are two optics I think are a bit more modernized.

 

 

These days I prefer 1P76 Rakurs because IMO it's an improved version of PK-AS...always on black german post reticule but tritium illuminated and needs no batteries.

 

 

The other one I really like is the space age 1P63 Obzor. Same concept as the Rakurs...always on reticule for daylight (but not etched like the Rakurs or PK-AS) along with tritium for night shooting.

 

Prices on all of them are about the same. PK-AS typically sits off to the left for the most common version so you can still use irons but 1P76 and Obzor are both QD like PK-AS and can be taken off in seconds.

 

 

PKAS-SLR105PlumLeftPKAS.JPG

PK-AS_Dot.JPG

 

 

1P76 Rakurs and Rakurs A1 (A1 has adjustable diopter)

Rakurs-A1_Rakurs.JPG

1P76_Rakurz_SGL31_GorkaAutumnLeft.jpg

Rakurs_Reticule.JPG

 

 

 

Obzor

1P63Obzor_SGL31-44_Left.JPG

1P63Obzor_Reticule_01.JPG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Z

 

Which optic on top of a new 030 SVDS conversion?

 

Thanks Z

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I wouldn't take any Russian optic unless it were free. There is a PK-AS that won't light up sitting on a shelf in my garage; it was a christmas present for my brother, and after very little use the dot decided to stop working. And there is NO way to send it anywhere to be fixed. At least with a western optic there is usually a service department where you can send your optic to be fixed when it breaks. Once the Russians have your money, they are done with you so far as post sales service is concerned. Some of the importers/sellers may have a warranty policy, but if it breaks outside of the warranty period you are screwed; you can't get it repaired at any price.

 

Right now I have a TWS rail and an Aimpoint C3 on order for one of my AK builds. Yes, it was expensive, but I have a high degree of confidence that if it ever breaks, Aimpoint will make it right.

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I wouldn't take any Russian optic unless it were free. There is a PK-AS that won't light up sitting on a shelf in my garage; it was a christmas present for my brother, and after very little use the dot decided to stop working. And there is NO way to send it anywhere to be fixed. At least with a western optic there is usually a service department where you can send your optic to be fixed when it breaks. Once the Russians have your money, they are done with you so far as post sales service is concerned. Some of the importers/sellers may have a warranty policy, but if it breaks outside of the warranty period you are screwed; you can't get it repaired at any price.

 

Right now I have a TWS rail and an Aimpoint C3 on order for one of my AK builds. Yes, it was expensive, but I have a high degree of confidence that if it ever breaks, Aimpoint will make it right.

 

PK-AS optics are known to go dead.

 

I've never really used the illumination on mine except when messing around with it, if I can see through it I don't need illumination since it has such bright glass. You don't see the saiga series not selling because there's lack of replacement parts. Plus, what do you do when the tritium in ANY scope expires?

 

I think off-ing all combloc optics is probably a poor choice, at least when dealing with this platform. Things are tailored to these rifles, and tend to work much better without needing a bunch of additional work.

Edited by Tombs
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PK-AS optics are known to go dead.

 

I've never really used the illumination on mine except when messing around with it, if I can see through it I don't need illumination since it has such bright glass. You don't see the saiga series not selling because there's lack of replacement parts. Plus, what do you do when the tritium in ANY scope expires?

 

I think off-ing all combloc optics is probably a poor choice, at least when dealing with this platform. Things are tailored to these rifles, and tend to work much better without needing a bunch of additional work.

 

I've never been super impressed with the Russian optics. They are nice, to be sure.. and yes, the you save a bit of money in most cases compared to some of the quality American or European alternatives. But personally, I'd rather spend 20% more and get 50% more optic. Just my opinion.

 

That said, sure the optics are tailored to the platform - but all the Russian sights sit very high up, while we Americans typically prefer low sitting optics. Maybe the Russians have different shooting doctrine, but I'll take an RS AKM w/ a good sight over the Russian stuff any day of the week; and I get co-witness out of it. Something no Russian dot sight will do.

 

As for tritium sights.. you know, if you buy American, it isn't a problem. The tritium is covered by Trijicon's warranty. When the tritium goes dim, you send it in, and they replace it. I've had it done, and it isn't a big deal. I have an Israeli Meprolight M21 too. I have no illusions about that sight being worth dick in 6 years. The tritium will go tits up, and I won't be able to get it replaced.

 

All that said, if your gun is for range use and as a show piece of Russian bad-assery - by all means, you absolutely NEED a Russian sight. There is something very wonderful about an all-Russian S12 or AK.

 

But if your AK already has an ACE stock on it or if your S12 is rocking a Chaos rail, to me, it doesn't make any sense to go with a Russian optic at that point.

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I see your point but, I disagree with what is viable to stake your life on.

 

I've got an aimpoint compM2 sitting around, I've just never had a huge interest in it. It sits on my stg556, and rarely gets used.

 

 

The PKAS I've used on almost every AK pattern rifle I have, and have never had to turn it on. It also doesn't obscure the sights, so it's optional use.

Russian optics sit high so you can use your irons, mostly, aside from some of the more radical sights.

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The PKAS I've used on almost every AK pattern rifle I have, and have never had to turn it on. It also doesn't obscure the sights, so it's optional use.

Russian optics sit high so you can use your irons, mostly, aside from some of the more radical sights.

 

Yeah, its two different approaches to the same problems.. and everyone has their tastes. No judgements. I've had my hands on a bunch of different Russian optics. About the only one I'd really use is the Obzor.

 

I prefer the Aimpoint in an RS AKM. I can see the sights through the optic. This allows me to use virtually the same cheek weld whether I'm using the dot, or the sights. The Russian solution requires you to use two different holds on the gun. I don't like that, but it has the advantage that the irons are "decoupled" from the view through the optic - so if, say, the optic gets caked in mud, you'd have a problem with the Aimpoint but be OK with a Russian optic sitting higher.

 

My take on that is if you don't care about the cheek weld, just get a picatinny mount that sits high enough to see under. I'd still end up mounting a Western optic, though; and the PKAS at $350 is a good example of why. For $100 or so more there is the Leupold Prismatic. Much better built, modular illumination, slightly better glass, and infinitely better warranty. The PKAS offers nothing that the little leup doesn't. On the other side of the coin, however, is the Russian optics with ranging and BDC for the Soviet calibers. Those make sense rather than going with something generic like a mildot reticle.

 

As for the "never have to turn it on" aspect of either the Leupold Prismatic (which I own and love), or the PKAS.. I'll say of my Aimpoints: but I never have to turn them OFF. And I don't. I have an Aimpoint T1 hanging off my scope as the backup sight on my M1A - going on 3 years. It's on setting 7 out of 10, and is left on 24/7.

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I've never cared for the aimpoint dot either.

 

Even after lasik it's still not a precise clean dot to my eyes.

 

 

Now the leupold... It has one major flaw, the center dot is 7 MOA!!! The PKAS is 1.5moa when illuminated and 1moa when not.

 

I was going to buy one a couple years back until I saw how huge that dot was in the optic. To me a 1x SCOPE is a precision optic and not something exclusively for close range.

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Now the leupold... It has one major flaw, the center dot is 7 MOA!!! The PKAS is 1.5moa when illuminated and 1moa when not.

 

I was going to buy one a couple years back until I saw how huge that dot was in the optic. To me a 1x SCOPE is a precision optic and not something exclusively for close range.

 

Yeah, the center dot of the prismatic is a bit large. Not sure where you got 7 MOA though. I did a brief google and couldn't find a definitive answer. I'd say its more like 4, but I'll have to check that next time I'm at the range. I would think a 1 moa etched dot would be too small to see against darkened/busy backdrops.

 

But yeah, I agree with you that for precision work, the prismatic isn't the best choice. Funny thing about that though.. when I was on the horn with Leupold awhile back about getting my Mark 4 repaired, I briefly inquired about the custom options on the Prismatic. It seems the etched lenses Leupold uses in their 30mm tubes is all standardized. There are a plethora of options available, if you send it in.

 

Hey, I'm not saying that the Russian optics are junk - just saying that they aren't the first place I would look for most purposes. If I had an itch that could only be scratched by a Russian optic, I wouldn't hesitate using one. But I'd want have it in my hand, to inspect it before I bought it. With US Optics, or Leupold .. I feel confident buying the stuff over the net, sight unseen. Because I know even if they somehow let a lemon get through, they'll take care of me.

 

The "PK-AS optics are known to go dead" sort of thing doesn't fly with me.

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I wouldn't take any Russian optic unless it were free. There is a PK-AS that won't light up sitting on a shelf in my garage; it was a christmas present for my brother, and after very little use the dot decided to stop working. And there is NO way to send it anywhere to be fixed. At least with a western optic there is usually a service department where you can send your optic to be fixed when it breaks. Once the Russians have your money, they are done with you so far as post sales service is concerned. Some of the importers/sellers may have a warranty policy, but if it breaks outside of the warranty period you are screwed; you can't get it repaired at any price.

 

Right now I have a TWS rail and an Aimpoint C3 on order for one of my AK builds. Yes, it was expensive, but I have a high degree of confidence that if it ever breaks, Aimpoint will make it right.

 

PK-AS optics are known to go dead.

 

I've never really used the illumination on mine except when messing around with it, if I can see through it I don't need illumination since it has such bright glass. You don't see the saiga series not selling because there's lack of replacement parts. Plus, what do you do when the tritium in ANY scope expires?

 

I think off-ing all combloc optics is probably a poor choice, at least when dealing with this platform. Things are tailored to these rifles, and tend to work much better without needing a bunch of additional work.

 

People still buying Saigas even though parts are not available is apples and oranges. First, a lot of parts are available, and short of a catastrophic failure, you can almost always get one fixed if you are willing to pay for it. The only option for a dead Russian optic is to replace it. Second, optics are far more fragile and likely to need repair than the rifle they are attached to, so buying a rifle that you can't get some of the parts for, is more of an acceptable risk than buying a non repairable optic. As you said, PK-AS are known to die. The AK's reputation for reliability, on the other hand...

 

And just because something was originally designed to to be compatible, that doesn't mean that it was designed well, that it is the best option, or that we can't do better now. And it's great that the PK-AS has the black dot permanently etched, but that doesn't come anywhere close to making up for the fact that they die, and you can't get it repaired. Sorry. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. Which is why I have an Aimpoint and a TWS rail on order at roughly twice the cost.

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  • 1 month later...

There's always the PK-23... or PDK-23 as it's sometimes referred to, or PK-23-01, which is actually etched into the optic. :D

 

~$200, (from Eastwave), for a mil-spec red dot with a 1 MOA blinking reticle and the lowest-sitting Russian mount that I've ever seen, (QD, center-bore, won't co-witness, but it's in the neighboorhood).

 

I've loved mine ever since I got it, and it costs significantly less than the more exotic Russian red dots Zen mentioned.

 

Pics:

 

m580transferpk23pics022.jpg

 

94pics016u.jpg

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