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Went to the range and tested compensator/optics combo.   Recoil and muzzle jump are more of the .22-cal grade. I shot a video (need to compress from Blu-Ray; will post soon) and was watching it in

It would look great cut straight flush with the gas block IMO.   Excuse my terrible photoshop skills, but somewhat like this:

Yep... Similar interests indeed. Good Job Sgt Raven. Evolution is definitely a good name.     Here's my baby...          

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Thank you!

 

1) I would like to add a mount for detacheable bipod (Harris?) and Picatinny rail to my "Fuglystick" hand guard.

2) Magpul Angled Foregrip or Hand Stop: I need to figure it out. I think, hand stop.

3) Sling mounts that are functional and out of the way during transitions.

4) Gas tube cover in Fuglystick pattern.

5) (Maybe) 45-degrees offset micro-reflex sight (PA or Vortex).

 

Gee, I hate to think it will be over soon...

 

What's next?

I don't know ...yet.

But, by far, it is NOT the end of the journey.

 

Stay tuned,

Happy Shooting!

 

Huh. My Disappointing Guntec USA mount just clears the hinge. Isn't the hard stop pretty significant to holding zero retention?

 

A friend sheared the hard stop roll-pin on mine with his eyesocket. I replaced with an aluminum plate and several machine screws. I didn't really think about putting it on the other end.

 

(Since sidemount was "opened" at the other end), 80 rounds later it still solid and holding zero.

I don't think it's going anywhere (with greatly reduced recoil with Miculek comp).

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Thanks!

"Yes" to being able to fire left-handed with stock folded.

"No" (not yet) to MOA: each trip to the range was for functionality checks.

50 yards onto the "Dirty Bird" was as close as I've got so far.

 

Speaking of first.

The idea was to replicate original Soviet AKS-74 concept of being able to shoot while folded.

Russki metal folder is much slimmer that Magpul, plus majority of original AKS-74 (and AKS-74U) did not have side mounts; therefore could be folded and locked flat to the receiver, leaving plenty of access to PG, trigger and even mag.

 

In this execution, safety, trigger and PG are still accessible and yes, I shot it folded last Tuesday (but not left-handed: didn't think clear enough). Next time...

 

 

Hope this helps:

post-28515-0-49824300-1330813983_thumb.jpg

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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Thanks, will do.

And speaking of "Mozambique style": I was puzzled when heard about and seen it in action.

It is being practiced within Russian Special Ops and Army Recon for quite a while.

I need to look up the story behind the name.

Will look into 1-5: it's ...quite different.

 

I think, this is the case when rifle is building itself into purpose (tactical to 3-gun?), dragging the builder behind on a sling, lol.

 

Speaking of sling: I am still looking for an "ideal" mounts for transition and carrying (including when folded).

Magpul ASAP is great, but for non-folder; and front mount AK-style or any side-mount is out of the support arm's way, but bad for R-L transition. Plus, I wanted it to be silent.

I have some ideas inside my restless head.

 

And as always, suggestions are welcomed.

Even more: let's take it as shared "community-driven" project (but rifle remains owned by me, unless you, guys, wanted to split the bills, lol!).

 

Stay tuned...

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  • 1 month later...

Finally!!!

I put my guts and tools together and ground the trunnion to accept all AR mags (via my hacked adapter).

Currently using "windowed" MagPul's PMAGs: works well.

 

Thanks to guys with brains and skills who shared their experience.

I don't think I can (or should) take any pictures better then they already did, but will if asked.

 

Detacheable bipod is next; range report will follow.

 

Happy Shooting!

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Looking at Winchester-branded "Harris-style" bipod at Wal-Mart, but wanted to burn PayPal cash.

Seems like decently made.

http://www.walmart.c...Bi-pod/14644713

 

Another alternative: Caldwell XLA (on Amazon.com):

http://www.amazon.co...35426115&sr=8-8

 

Anyone has experience with these before I bite a lip and move to original Harris?

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  • 2 weeks later...

While I've enjoyed your build thread. I am now left asking for pics and answers about the install or "Hacking" as you put it. So I can, as well as others, see what you did. I'm not saying you installed the adapter wrong. The adapter was made so it could be adapted to various AK platforms. You've stated the adapter runs as quoted below.... I just want to see what you did.

 

Went to the Range late last night and fire-tested my latest updates (trigger tweaks, handguard and AR-AK adapter with PMAGs).

This is the sweetest tactical-style rifle I’ve had and shot.

 

It performed flawlessly for over 80 rounds, shot nice groups (it was not a primary goal last night) and functioned without the single hiccup.

 

When asked about the install you said, and I quote again.

 

 

So what did you have to do to install the MSA adapter? Can you drop the mag with your trigger finger?

You don't want to know that... anger.gif

Just kidding (or not).

There is a serious misfit in design application for "dimpled" Saiga.

It required heavy, very heavy filing inside and out.

Right from the start you cannot insert it into receiver withouh jamming it.

Then you mag gets jam-stuck in it.

 

One thing I can say: if I had to do it again, I'd go with Mike Thomas' Renegade Buck adapter (ask The Deacon; see threads below).

I did only moderate receiver modifications and elected to modify PMAG at this point (can post pictures if interested).

 

Mag drop with finger trigger: YES, easily (but after heavy fine-filing, trimming and polishing of adapter).

 

Check this for reference.

http://forum.saiga-1...__fromsearch__1

http://forum.saiga-1...977#entry699977

 

 

 

All I see is you refrencing a posts you made that links you back to the same post you also posted. AND that isn't even Deacons post. It is one by 6x6pinz and he didn't buy an MSA adapter. Neither 6x6pinz or Deacon have an MSA adapter.

 

It's is aparent with your thread you had some issues with the installation. A few others and I have discussed your install in the quiet areas of PM are curious. (As to the actions you have taken to do so.) You seem to lend the issue to having a "Dimpled" receiver.

You then go on to promote another mag adapter without having first hand working knowledge of it. You said it in an above post it is on your add on list. Which leads me to the following........

 

I and others are left to question a few things.

 

1) Do you think it is possible you bit off more than you're comfortable/capable of doing? I am left to think you did. As pointed out before in another thread, the hacking AR mags are a NO NO. Stating you had to "Hack" my adapter is nothing more than you not installing it properly or poor execution of an installation idea. Had you removed the material properly in the first place you'd see you didn't have to modify the adapter nor the AR mags at all. So your installation situation is purely a product of your own making and in no way a direct relation to my product or it's design.

 

2) What tools and methods did you employ to install the adapter? Mill, dremel or a hand file? The right tool for the right job goes a long way. I ask this as you compared the time installing or "Hacking" as you put it to take longer than putting the rifle together. I can do a AR adapter install in 15 minutes or less, but I have a mill. Times are going to vary depending on tools employed.

 

3) Would you please accurately explaine the difference between a dimpled receiver and a non. If not... maybe a detailed description of how your rifle is not like the others so I can account for this in future R&D. You are not the only one out there with one of my adapters and a "Dimpled" receiver. I've done a few myself and the dimples don't have a thing to do with the adapter or it's installation. It's a way of stabilizing AK mags in the receiver. My adapter is well within the specs to fit between the dimples. Any statement saying dimples are the reason you "Hacked" your adapter is a lack of experiance with the variations of the AK platform.

 

4) Can you tell me the difference between the two adapters. Both function and installation? I can. Yet I am still waiting on an independant third party to review the two side by side. I've even offered an adapter so it could be done. That is how confident I am about having a safer and more reliable product.

 

Please do not mistake my post for agression. I am looking for enlightenment and to expand the knowledgebase of this forum. If this means discrediting your posts and misinformation then I am sorry. I honestly believe your posts are made from lack of knowledge about the firearm, function and componets of.... not my product as you would infer. I look to help educate about what to realisticaly expect about my product and others while keeping them safe.

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Well, I don't plan to turn this thread into duel with disgruntled vendor or my personal "curriculum vitae".

 

I wish you put this much effort into improving your product, lead time and installation/applications instructions.

 

This is a free forum in a Free Country.

Unlike some other unhappy MSA customers, I haven't started dedicated threads, but rather responded to other members' inquiries and shared my personal

experience and observations.

If I violated forum's "rules of engagement", then I am willing to pay the price for my actions.

You are welcome to petition to ban me off this Forum; I'm not sure how will it help you or your customers, but, once again, it's a Free Country.

If mild criticism is a reason for banning, then maybe I found myself at the wrong place to start with...

 

I don't have to, but will address some of your questions and concerns.

I am not Machinist by trade or education, just like majority of the members here.

I am quite handly with tools I have, and my personal experience is ranging from mid-line automotive ("non-professional" and "non-commercial" R&M; majorily

Japanese and Mercedes) to advanced scientific and manufacturing equipment (Material Science and Semiconductors) , including one-of-a-kind systems with

individual price tag exceeding cost of average Machine Shop.

Most of my education is in Mechanical and Process Engineering, so I'm not novice to S.O.P. and documentation, from reading and following to writing and

editing.

 

Speaking of my firearms experience, I shot my first service-grade Soviet-made AK (AKM) before many of this Forum's respected Members were born.

Due to specifics of my service I have handled variety of "commblock" weapons, both hand-held and vehicle-mounted.

While I was never an Armorer, I had to get very comfortable with each and every weapon.

And my handle's rank reference is not made up or arrived from the Airsoft (no offense to anyone): "Sergeant" was my rank at the time of (honorable)

discharge from the Army Airborne.

 

Back to your questions and statements:

- My rifle functions very well now, after "heavily" modifying your adapter. Modifications include removing sections of the well wall, which are in contact with the

"dimples" (BTW, I am aware what those are for, but thanks for clearing it up for some users who are not).

When I've got your adapter, I couldn’t drop the mag (PMAG) even while handheld.

Once inserted in, its side walls (at the contact with the "dimples") were closing on mag, squeezing it stuck.

I had to remove material (following with polishing) on inside as well, until it stated to function while "handheld" as well as original M/AR mag wells. I used

gap/feeler gauge set to control and verify modifications in process.

 

- On mag modification. It was a "proof of concept" work on single magazine, until I've got comfortable moving to work on trunnion lugs. Rest of my PMAGs are

unmodified and function well since late trunnion work. Once again, "it's Free Country". I paid for my mags and free to do whatever I wish to.

I've seen variety of mags under wide range of conditions and even wider range of circumstances and geographical locations, and have a good feeling what

should work and what won't. Even then, AK line was catching me by surprise (on a good side).

 

- I don't have a mill. I have a friend, who is very experienced Machinist and has own shop, but I haven't engaged him into adapter installation.

I have few ideas on my own and will get him onboard when time and money is right.

Therefore, Craftsman and Dremmel are my "on-call" friends.

 

- Since you are professional Machinist, I would encourage YOU to explore the "dimpled" Saiga version. It is my understanding that all Saigas made lately are

"dimpled", just the way Soviets & Co designed them on stamped receivers. Both of my 5.45 mm ("Legion") and .223 (plain Izhmash) were made in 2009 and

both have them.

 

- I don't pimp "Renegade Buck", nor I have his adapter yet, but I spoke and exchanged messages with people who do, and haven't heard anything bad

about adapter or its manufacturer.

I've also contacted Renegade Buck and was pleasantly surprised by the depth of information received from him, and the timing of his response to "prospective customer".

Getting the product and updates from you was unreasonably lengthy for me (5 or 6 week for product listed "in stock" and no notification of ship).

You referred to him as "guy with torch", bending metal in his garage (not an exact quote, but can find, if you want me to).

Renegade Buck didn't say anything bad about his competitors.

He makes product, and not excuses.

And he tells his customers what is in stock and how long it takes to receive it.

 

Hope that helps.

Happy Shooting!

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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Sgt. Raven...

 

Truth is fine.... Yes I do have areas to work on and have been for many months attempting different avenues. Nowhere have I mentioned banning for having an opinion. LOL I am trying to engage you in a conversation that exposes truths for others. So lets stay on topic. Not personal attacks just truths. If it seems like I am then I apologize once again. I don't claim to be an English major so my writing on the forums can be perceived as harsh.

 

First. I am not a "professional machinist" by trade as somehow you've come to think. I do however own a machine shop for production and R&D purposes as well employ other shops to perform varing tasks for my company. Would you say Will at RJF is a professional machinist? I think no. However it is a part of the wide skill set of his profession. I just also happen to do CAD, electrical and mechanical engineering. Don't try to classify ones profession just because they turn a mill. Let me also state I have 30 years of firearm experiance. 20 of which is based on AR and AK platform. I do not know it all.... but everyday I continue to learn new things. Human nature is a curiosity and curiosity is a human nature.

 

Rather than saying you "hacked" the adapter you just said "Heavily modified" and is not as negative in connotation. I can accept criticism on buisness practices I am working to fix but not on a product due to ones isolated experiance that looks to be due to lack of experiance. I do commend you for wanting to share your personal experiances. I just find stating you "Hacked" something (as you have made many a refrences to doing so) personally derrogatory to what I believe to be a superior product and based merely lack of product knowledge and experiance. Conjecture...... as it was misapplied to me by another but seems fitting here.

 

I've owned and researched several dimpled versions of the .223 platform (of various years and outside of just Saigas) as well as have a large customer base that does as well. The dimples are not a new thing in 2009 so unless you have a extreme "one off" in steel stamping....which is possible as the Russians are notorious for having "Vodka Specials". I find your explanation/reasoning that it was attributed to the dimples lacks any merit to any negative connotation towards my product or rifle. IF you measure the internal crossection between the dimples on your receiver what does it come to? Had you considered the adapter is designed to cross many AK platforms and not just the Saiga? I tried before and I am again trying to get research material from YOU directly. All I see is you deflecting.

 

I commend you for your service to our country, but stating or using active or prior military service as a skillset on your firearm resume would be like my wife saying her drivers liscense is a qualification/certification to repair cars. Or that she works in a hospital and by that alone is qualified to do brain surgery. I'm sorry it's not. There are many MOS listed in the military, few of which are ARMORER. Either you are or you're not. I have military experiance but I do not list that as a qualification. I used the engineering skillsets and tools of both myself and other professionals to develop a product. Government and Military calls that Private Sector.

 

As far as Renegade Buck is concearned.. I find the wreckless stating of modifing AR mags to be a gross neglect and liability. As I pointed out you managed to regurgitate the same bad information on a public forum that can be potentialy dangerous to others. So I posted it again to show you. Any misinformation passed along to others by him is a liability to him alone yet is irreparable damage to the community as soon as someone dies from doing so. I will call it to attention so others do not make the same mistake. As I said in another thread "Sorry if I look like a dick"

 

"My torch and steel" comment was based long ago when Mike and I exchanged emails. How do you think he made them when he first started? Also did you know he approached me first to manufacture them. I declined due to my own agenda and I saw the liability to be far to great. I polietly stated that I had far to much invested in my own R&D and thought it would be a step backwards as what he was presenting me was already thought of and covered in our own R&D. I and my team found the design to be unsafe, lacked proper geometry and supporting construction. I still have the emails saved if you'd like to do some factual research.

 

Does his design work. Yes. However he has changed his adpter through revisions to improve the reliability. A few years ago he stated to have correct the feed angle for just that. I launched our adapter with the correct feed geometry from the start. In the years since the only revisions we have done is to allow it to be used in more AK platforms making it more versatile than that of my competitors. I say this as it was one claimed by Renegade it would work on a Galil. IF you know anything about a Galil you'd know it is a milled receiver. His adapter lacks the proper mounting hardware to fit such a rifle. It relies on the space between a stamped steel receiver and a rivited trunion which all milled reciever are void of. I too would be happy to point out those posts. My adapter uses the same trunion location like that of a factory AK mag, making it consistant in round placement every time. I believe this to be far superior in safety and execution of design and function.

 

I'm not attcking Mike himself. I am however going to call a spade a spade in terms of proper design and execution of a product when it comes to product safety and application. In the end you can fault me for my issues falling down and getting back up and the bumps along the way. That's fine. I have no issue with that... Life happens.

 

Cheers.

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"Rather than saying you "hacked" the adapter you just said "Heavily modified" and is not as negative in connotation".

 

I didn't use word "hacked" in derogatory meaning, but rather describing my limited machining skills and techniques.

All: from now on, I have "Heavily modified" adapter.

 

"Had you considered the adapter is designed to cross many AK platforms and not just the Saiga? I tried before and I am again trying to get research material from YOU directly. All I see is you deflecting."

 

I am not "deflecting", I do NOT have proper tools at home, time, desire, nor skills to do so on Machinist-level.

I have $25 digital calipers in my garage, and those are not well suitable for the task you're asking about.

Heck, let my Saiga be "Vodka Special": I care less.

Saiga OEM mag fits just well; and your adapter (after receiver opening) didn't. Therefore, I "Heavily modified" it.

Also, I mentioned in other post that I suspect you were using Romanian AK for creating initial template.

Some can say "AK is AK", but I've had Draco and sold it primarily because I couldn't tolerate its quality (I am aware, it's more Century than Romanians)...

 

I wouldn't keep your adapter if I hated it.

I LOVE the idea, functionality (after modifications) and its look, and commend you for your innovation and ingenuity.

I really mean it.

Once it was modified, it's a keeper.

 

You sound like my case is an isolated incident, but you know it is not.

And you were responding to other members' comments rather harshly.

Personally, I am not offended.

 

I am not "using active or prior military service as a skillset on ... firearm resume".

I simply illustrated that I am not new to firearms world as "end user", clearly stating that I am not an Armorer and never attempted to present myself as such.

 

I believe I am doing you a favor responding to your message.

Some wouldn't, but I did.

And if you would approach me on a slower horse, you would get more out of me.

 

I wish you all success and prosperity, as there is plenty of place under the sun for everyone.

And I think you'll get there faster by listening to your customers, and addressing their issues and concerns, rather than disqualifying them or questioning their skills and credentials.

 

Good luck,

Happy Shooting!

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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Please accept my apology for anything that seemed over the line. As I stated I am a hard one to digest. Which is why I have brought Will on board to handle the PR and customer service so I can focus on other issues of mutual concern. And frankly some of my comment are warranted. I am not without humility. But I do stand my ground.

 

I would still be interested in seeing your install. IF there are things I can take into account to better a product then I am always wanting to do so. The re-purposing of AR mags to the AK platform is not without danger. Any way to better the practice of would be of interest of me.

 

No worries and no hard feelings

 

 

I do love what you did with your rifle

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Do you know what I like the most about our Contry, and what most of the other countries and cultures are lacking?

 

Many Freedoms, including the Freedom of expression.

We can argue, disagree and stand our ground in the open, at the end for the benefits to all.

 

And this is just another example of it.

 

I am fortunate to speak languages other than English, and this type of discussion often ends differently (read: "ugly", "un-civilized") on another (foreign) forums.

That's why we're where we at, and they are not.

Therefore, God Bless America.

 

ABSOLUTELY no apologies necessary, but in my turn I will be more specific and watchful in my commentaries.

You are correct; actions are being accompanied by responsibilities.

 

P.S. Contact me when you're in my neck of the woods: beer is on me.

P.P.S. I'm taking "AKAR" for (privately held) spin with my "Quiet Professionals" active-duty friends next weekend.

Will share their comments later.

 

Happy Shooting!

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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Took AKAR for a spin yesterday with my active-duty Brothers.

It ate each and every type of ammo thrown at it (both .223 and 5.56), fed from variety of mags (from pristine PMAGs to beat-up USGIs and beyond).

 

Not a single hiccup, no FTF; each and every mag worked fine through MSA adapter.

 

"Fuglystick" handguard worked extremely well with 5.56 in rapid fire, multi-target acquisition.

And no, I am not cutting it down: its extended length saved few palms from burning, when used in 3G-style, extended grip handling.

 

I know: "If there are no pictures, it never happened".

There are no pictures (PERSEC).

And it did happen.

 

But I'll throw someting in later.

 

Happy Shooting!

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(Add-on) Primary Arms 1-4x red dot scored some points and got complimented for clear optics and well defined dot and reticle.

And coming from guys with extensive ACOG and EOTech field experience, I'll take it in a heart beat.

 

I still wish it had BDC reticle, but for CQB/3G shouldn't ask for more.

 

Also, it was taken off and remounted on (modified) VOMZ twice (for "show and tell") and held zero solid.

Absolutely no movement (since hard stop was removed for installing/removing from the front of the sidemount).

 

post-28515-0-47751600-1337163565_thumb.jpg

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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I love what you did with your rifle. It looks great. You have inspired me to put a mag adapter on my 5.45 saiga. Now I just need to do some more resarch on which one to get and where to get it and some 5.45 ar mags. Great job on the thread and the rifle.

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I love what you did with your rifle. It looks great. You have inspired me to put a mag adapter on my 5.45 saiga. Now I just need to do some more resarch on which one to get and where to get it and some 5.45 ar mags. Great job on the thread and the rifle.

 

Probably not the best idea. 5.45 AR mags are not known for their quality or price. Nothing wrong with AK-74 mags. Just IMO.

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I love what you did with your rifle. It looks great. You have inspired me to put a mag adapter on my 5.45 saiga. Now I just need to do some more resarch on which one to get and where to get it and some 5.45 ar mags. Great job on the thread and the rifle.

 

Why didn't I think of it earlier? wacko.png

My first conversion was on 5.45x39.

 

And why not? This is America!

 

I love what you did with your rifle. It looks great. You have inspired me to put a mag adapter on my 5.45 saiga. Now I just need to do some more resarch on which one to get and where to get it and some 5.45 ar mags. Great job on the thread and the rifle.

 

Probably not the best idea. 5.45 AR mags are not known for their quality or price. Nothing wrong with AK-74 mags. Just IMO.

 

Eh, there is nothing that dremel can't fix, isn't it? victory.gif

Worst case scenario, it's a matter of time...

 

Seriously, like one said: "JUST DO IT!".

i would love to see it; keep me posted.

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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