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Saiga "AKAR" evolution

AK AKAR .223 Saiga conversion Magpul AR

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#91 rogers

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:50 PM

Probably not the best idea. 5.45 AR mags are not known for their quality or price. Nothing wrong with AK-74 mags. Just IMO


which 5.45 ar mags are you talking about, specifically. the c products i have heard mixed reviews on. the asc 5.45 mags seem to be superior from what i have read. i like the 5.45 bulgarialn circle 10 and 21 mags the best but they are ridiculously priced now and difficult to get. i believe i saw them for 35 dollars new on one site. if the asc 5.45 ar mags are decent they are between 15 and 20 bucks depending on where you get them and they are readily available. i am still on the fence about what an adapter will do to my rifle as far as durability and reliability. i have yet to read a post from someone with an ar adapter of any kind that has ran thousands of rounds through there gun so i don't think anyone really knows how durable the trunion on a converted gun is after all the metal removal. i shoot a lot so durability is no 1 to me.

hey sgt. i live in nc to maybe we can shoot together sometime.
Saiga 12 = Appropriate Technology


#92 Pyzik

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:48 PM

I believe Bohound on here has put a few thousand rounds through her adapter. I have a thread on here asking how many rounds folks have through their adapters.

http://forum.saiga-1...eir-ar-adapter/
I recently moved pictures around, sorry if I broke the links.

#93 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:55 PM

(Edited later) Pyzik beat me with his reply by few seconds. That was about Bohound's experience and the thread link above (thanks!).

I believe I've recently seen here numbers as high as 2,000 rounds through AR adapter, used with .223.
When installed as intended, final round position is identical (or near-identical) to Saiga or AK magazines.

If this can help, here are (L-R; .223/5.56): Saiga 10-rounder, Tapco Galil/Golani (marketed for AK as well) and PMAG.

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Edited by Sgt. Raven, 24 May 2012 - 04:56 AM.

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#94 TAKD

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:36 PM

@Rogers

The saiga trunion mods done (if done right) mimic that of a military double stack trunnion like that found on a Norinco AK or Galil. In short. The trunnion that Saiga .223s use is a single stack width trunnion. The military version is wider or a double stack trunnion. You can open up a single to that of a double safely if you mill it out and not accidentaly remove the temper of the steel.

As far as the most amount of rounds shot.... I'm sure we have most here beat when we did R&D. The origional test .223 used (milled trunnion) has more than 12k rounds with no signs of failure or stress. To date not one MSA customer who installed the adapter per our suggestion or other has reported a failure of the trunnion.

YMMV

#95 shootsmuch

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 03:33 AM

Do you know what I like the most about our Contry, and what most of the other countries and cultures are lacking?

Many Freedoms, including the Freedom of expression.
We can argue, disagree and stand our ground in the open, at the end for the benefits to all.

And this is just another example of it.

I am fortunate to speak languages other than English, and this type of discussion often ends differently (read: "ugly", "un-civilized") on another (foreign) forums.
That's why we're where we at, and they are not.
Therefore, God Bless America.

ABSOLUTELY no apologies necessary, but in my turn I will be more specific and watchful in my commentaries.
You are correct; actions are being accompanied by responsibilities.

P.S. Contact me when you're in my neck of the woods: beer is on me.
P.P.S. I'm taking "AKAR" for (privately held) spin with my "Quiet Professionals" active-duty friends next weekend.
Will share their comments later.

Happy Shooting!

Could we get music played to this....lol.

#96 rogers

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 04:21 PM

thanks for the link pyzik. don't know how i missed that thread. that is pretty much what i was wanting to hear.

@ MSA do you know if a 5.45 saiga trunion is the same dimensions as the 223? i am wondering if it will require more metal removal, less or about the same. still not sure if this is a good idea on my 5.45 since it is somewhat uncharted territory but it is sounding better and better. i am getting tempted to just go ahead and get a 223 saiga just so i can use ar mags. it really is a great idea. didn't mean to hijack your thread sgt raven if i did.
Saiga 12 = Appropriate Technology


#97 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 04:35 PM

didn't mean to hijack your thread sgt raven if i did.


You're doing fine, Brother.
Knowledge is power.



Oh, and there will be no music: jukebox is down.

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 24 May 2012 - 04:36 PM.

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#98 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 06:27 AM

Setting up for re-make of first (lousy) video.


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#99 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:42 AM

"AKAR: evolution in motion", version 2 added.
Brief video summary of "AKAR" S223 conversion (re-edited).

http://youtu.be/6EZkaYwZHik

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 29 May 2012 - 02:54 PM.

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#100 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 07:51 AM

American tribute to Russian Airborne.

Attached Files


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#101 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 06:39 AM

200+ more fault-free rounds yesterday, shooting with my AR buddies.
Used Tula and Federal (American Eagle) ammo.
My friend had FTF jams on his AR, suspecting the ammo (he used Wolf WPA).
Took his mags (20-round PMAGs and USGIs) with his Wolf ammo: Saiga ate them like hungry puppy, who stumbled upon unfinished can of spam.

Everyone complimented smooth and light trigger pull. I'd give all credits to Tapco G2, but I remember how it felt before I polished it up.
Nice polishing makes all the difference.
Try it and you'll never go back to "standard issue" FCGs.

Also, as everyone noticed, Miculek (BTW, it's "Mee-chu-lek") compensator was the most effective, even though the loudest of all, including one AR-15 with no MB, shooting 5.56.
It doesn't sound any different when you shoot it, but once I stepped aside when my buddies were blasting it: it's loud.
Not my problem, he-he...

Overall, over 800 rounds to date: not a single malfunction: jam, FTF, misfire, whatever.
Not a single mag drop,

Happy Shooting!

P.S. Next stop: bipod. My friend has Harris with notched legs on his tack-driver LR308 with Nikon Monarch.
Say whatever: I used few knock-offs in the past, but there is nothing like original.
Sending 3 out of 5 bullets into single hole with no effort at all, while taking the smacking with 7.62: I'm sold.

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 04 June 2012 - 05:00 AM.

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#102 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:51 AM

Got Harris Engineering 1A2-LM Bipod 9-13"
Under $60 after discount: I can handle it (well, my CC can).

Just blown away by light weight and US-made quality.
Cheap chinese-made imitators cannot hold the candle to the real thing; no way!

Light, sturdy, spring-loaded notched legs, mil-grade leg release buttons: "QUALITY" in everything.
And MVO's customer service and shipping is top-notch.
Picture is coming.

Happy Shooting!


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#103 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:59 AM

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Laser next...

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 17 June 2012 - 07:58 AM.

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#104 Dad2142Dad

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 06:46 AM

Raven what is the total weight now?

#105 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 07:43 AM

Glad you've asked: motivated me to find out.

According to my "unscientific" but brand new Sharper Image digital luggage scales:

Unloaded rifle with optics, bipod and sling: 10.8 lbs/ 4.9 kg
Without optics: 9.3 lbs/ 4.2 kg
Without optics and bipod: 8.6 lbs/ 3.9 kg

Bipod is very compact and light, but as you can see, optics and its mount add quite a weight.

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 12 June 2012 - 04:50 AM.

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#106 Pyzik

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:53 AM

I have been wondering on the weight myself. Thanks Dad2142Dad for asking. And Sgt. for sharing the info.

Edited by Pyzik, 11 June 2012 - 08:54 AM.

I recently moved pictures around, sorry if I broke the links.

#107 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:48 AM

I know, it's been a while...

Since last post AKAR saw some fun actions, including great shoots.

But the sweetest time (to date) was yesterday.
Certainly, they look good together.,,,

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1st place in rifle competition and 1 place overall (pistol and rifle).
That included 3-stage PAC timer shooting, with last one being "5x5" (5 rounds in 5 seconds).
With Miculek muzzle break that was a kiddie play (thanks Jerry for superior design, outstanding performance and affordable offering!).


Happy Shooting!

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 23 August 2012 - 05:03 AM.

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#108 TAKD

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:07 PM

Congrats.... Rifle looks fantastic.

#109 wpflgun

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:20 AM

@Rogers

The saiga trunion mods done (if done right) mimic that of a military double stack trunnion like that found on a Norinco AK or Galil. In short. The trunnion that Saiga .223s use is a single stack width trunnion. The military version is wider or a double stack trunnion. You can open up a single to that of a double safely if you mill it out and not accidentaly remove the temper of the steel.

As far as the most amount of rounds shot.... I'm sure we have most here beat when we did R&D. The origional test .223 used (milled trunnion) has more than 12k rounds with no signs of failure or stress. To date not one MSA customer who installed the adapter per our suggestion or other has reported a failure of the trunnion.

YMMV


So, is this why unmodified Galil mags fit after removing the trunnion material for magwell adapter installation? Also, If I were to build a .223 on an AK-74 kit, would the trunnion require removal of material for the adapter?

#110 mancat

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:15 AM

@Rogers

The saiga trunion mods done (if done right) mimic that of a military double stack trunnion like that found on a Norinco AK or Galil. In short. The trunnion that Saiga .223s use is a single stack width trunnion. The military version is wider or a double stack trunnion. You can open up a single to that of a double safely if you mill it out and not accidentaly remove the temper of the steel.

As far as the most amount of rounds shot.... I'm sure we have most here beat when we did R&D. The origional test .223 used (milled trunnion) has more than 12k rounds with no signs of failure or stress. To date not one MSA customer who installed the adapter per our suggestion or other has reported a failure of the trunnion.

YMMV


This post goes way back, but.. I'm not sure why you're saying that the Saiga trunnion is a single stack design. The trunnion on my Saiga .223, aside from having slightly larger locking lugs, is identical to the trunnion out of my Bulgarian AK-74 kit. It's definitely not, nor has it ever been a single-stack design.

A single-stack trunnion would not fit military double-stack mags, at all. That goes at odds with every Saiga that I've seen, including my own, that has no problem accepting double-stack magazines. Even the factory magazine is a double-stack magazine.

Galil magazines (surplus and Tapco) snapped into my Saiga out of the box with no modification needed.

This is a single-stack trunnion.

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#111 TAKD

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 09:35 PM

@Mancat.... do Bulgy mags and Galil mags fit right up to your .223 without modding anything? Last R&D I did the Saiga .223 is neutered in the trunnion department. Now it may have been heresay but they speculated importation requirements had something to do with it. IF you look at a MAK-90 it is a lot wider that I do know.

@wpflgun. You either mod the mag or the trunnion. I'm still waiting on that physics, two masses occuping the same space, issue to resolve itself. LOL

#112 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:11 AM

Good discussion.

While not exactly on topic...
@ Texas AK Designs: do you consider (or are you already doing) adapter well edge beveling?
I've done mine in a crude way by filing & smoothing it up with Dremel, and found it very helpful during the mag swap, particularly on those PAC-timed stages.

PM me (a link?) to what's new; I'm all eyes and ears on design updates.

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#113 mancat

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:23 AM

@Mancat.... do Bulgy mags and Galil mags fit right up to your .223 without modding anything? Last R&D I did the Saiga .223 is neutered in the trunnion department. Now it may have been heresay but they speculated importation requirements had something to do with it. IF you look at a MAK-90 it is a lot wider that I do know.

@wpflgun. You either mod the mag or the trunnion. I'm still waiting on that physics, two masses occuping the same space, issue to resolve itself. LOL


All Galil mags go in with zero mods to rifle. Bulgy and Polish mags require slight filing of the forward feed lip area to match the feed lip profile of the Saiga factory mag - this is because Saiga locking lugs are slightly larger than Bulgarian/Polish AKM and AK-74 locking lugs, and they protrude a bit downward vs. other variants. Otherwise the mags fit fine. It will even take steel and bakelite 7.62x39 mags, and while obviously they don't feed too well, they go in and lock up.

Thinking about it and looking at it... It could be possible that I got a rifle built with a trunnion intended for 7.62x39, seeing as that the mags fit in exactly. I don't have another to compare to, so I don't know. My WASR-10/63 has identical looking trunnion and will also accept all Galil .223 magazines.

May be an issue of dimensional differences with round trunnion vs. flat trunnion. Mine is round. Receiver is dimpled.

I am planning on building another .223 AK out of this Bulgy '74 parts kit here, so I've been working on the Bulgy trunnion to figure out what's needed to get it to work with all of the common .223 AK mags. The only issue is that the trunnion is slightly too narrow just below the locking lugs - easy to fix. The lower trunnion rivets also need to have a flat inner head. Otherwise, it currently works fine with Beryl mags, including feeding with 5.45 bullet guide.

So, yeah.. The Saiga trunnion is actually wider than a double-stack AK-74 trunnion.

Edited by mancat, 28 August 2012 - 11:32 AM.


#114 TAKD

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:03 PM

Wouldn't surprise me one bit....My X39 is larger as well but the .223 not so. I swear I think they just pull shit out of the parts bin and go "Yep it fits" and away they go.

Good discussion.

While not exactly on topic...
@ Texas AK Designs: do you consider (or are you already doing) adapter well edge beveling?
I've done mine in a crude way by filing & smoothing it up with Dremel, and found it very helpful during the mag swap, particularly on those PAC-timed stages.

PM me (a link?) to what's new; I'm all eyes and ears on design updates.


@ Sgt Raven... We will revisit the .223 adapter later this year. The BASTARD will have edge beveling at the throat of the magwell. May carry this over to the next generation of AR adapters.
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#115 Zambidis

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 04:40 AM

Two questions for the OP:

If you don't mind my asking how much as this build cost you (sans optic)?

Secondly, what kind of cheek weld do you get with the optic that high? The pictures make it look as though a chin weld, at best, would be possible. Do you think a 3/4" magpul cheek riser would be high enough to correct for how high the optic sits?

#116 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:14 AM

Two questions for the OP:

If you don't mind my asking how much as this build cost you (sans optic)?

Secondly, what kind of cheek weld do you get with the optic that high? The pictures make it look as though a chin weld, at best, would be possible. Do you think a 3/4" magpul cheek riser would be high enough to correct for how high the optic sits?


1) I don't mind. PARTS ONLY (without cost of rifle itself): $505 plus shipping & tax (sans optics, mount, bipod, sling, mags).

2) You're correct, it's more of the mid-way (cheek/chin) weld for optics, leaving chin weld for irons as backup.
Future considerations: dropping spacer on optics mount, bringing scope lower, and adding micro-reflex or 45-degree offset-mounted BUIS (unsure about front sight mount location yet).

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 29 August 2012 - 05:20 AM.

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#117 Zambidis

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 02:21 PM

If it were my gun, I would try to get the scope lower for both cheek weld and height over bore issues. I added 3/4" a riser to one of my magpul stocks and the improvement was dramatic. They are cheap at $20. I find that one cannot shoot well consistently and quickly without a good and repeatable cheek weld. You can use cardboard or something to build up a model and get an idea of how a 3/4" riser will be before dropping the money on it.

#118 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

I like your suggestion.
Let me figure out which one I need (0.25, 0.50 or 0.75").

Stand by for AAR.

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 29 August 2012 - 04:15 PM.

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#119 Sgt. Raven

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:33 AM

Scope mount' spacer removed.
Could still use cheek weld riser, but it looks like 1/2 in. should work well for me.

Iron sights are not easy to switch to, since scope is barely leaves room to see front sight post properly aligned.
It's definitely not a 3G setup, not like it ever intended to be.

However, it takes about 2 seconds to drop the scope for SHTF situation or in case of catastrophic optics failure (release the lever and slide it forward).
And if you had to, you can still fire "from the hip" (or chest) while dropping the scope.
Or use laser if you have one.
Or (if you don't have laser) switch to backup weapon for neutralizing the close range target, and drop the scope when it's safe to do so.

I'm sure offset BUIS or mini-reflex is next for me.

I guess, I'm not done here.
Range report on modified scope installation is coming.

Happy Shooting!

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Edited by Sgt. Raven, 09 September 2012 - 09:21 AM.

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#120 Sgt. Raven

Sgt. Raven

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 07:35 PM

Lower scope position (thanks for suggestion, Zambidis!) works better.
No surprise, windage still intact after re-assembly.
Russians must built this mount with T-34 mentality (JK).

Larger project is in works. MUCH larger than offset BUIS or reflex. No BS.
Stay tuned.

Edited by Sgt. Raven, 21 October 2012 - 05:31 AM.

IF YOUR FREEDOMS MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU, THEN UNLEASH FULL POWER TO DEFEND THEM NOW!!!
JOIN (or at least, DONATE to):
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