man-at-arms 2 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Just a harmless question that popped into my head after a couple beers, I profusely apologize in advance for whatever rage I provoke. I was just wondering if a 12ga with rifling would legally qualify as a rifle such that its barrel could legally be shortened to 16." Well, since the highly creative industry hasn't exploited this yet, I suppose I should ask "why not?" I was thinking about those gimmicky Taurus Judge pistols and assumed that any legal weirdness is undone by the rifling. Sorry if I pissed anyone off. M@A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I believe it is all about the diameter of the barrel. I may be wrong, but I can say that no, rifleing the barrel would not change the classification. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battosaii 99 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 (edited) imo its kind of a grey area i think, cause a rifle with a bore larger then 1/2" is considered a DOD by the ATF and would need a tax stamp just like any SBS or SBR unless its a smooth bore but for the most part i think a rifled barrel shotgun is still considered a shotgun Edited December 18, 2011 by Battosaii Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I was just wondering if a 12ga with rifling would legally qualify as a rifle such that its barrel could legally be shortened to 16." Well, since the highly creative industry hasn't exploited this yet, I suppose I should ask "why not?" I was thinking about those gimmicky Taurus Judge pistols and assumed that any legal weirdness is undone by the rifling. M@A I would not cut it to 16", Police will have a field day. The Judge is a pistol that can shot a shot shell, it is rifled and legal. That is the way my Gun Dealer explained it to me. I asked Him the very same question you are asking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) the reason the taurus judge can be so short is because it can also fire a pistol caliber. possible if you had metallic "rifle" cartridges that would work in a rifled saiga 12, but they would need a sporting exemption just like big bore hunting rifles that are over .50. not sure if the metallic cartridges would have to be a factory load or not, but obtaining a sporting exemption would be more a pain in the ass than just registering an sbs. and i believe there has to be a gun already being produced that only fires your 12ga rifle shells. just like red333 said, a judge is just a 45 colt revolver that also happens to be able to fire 410 Edited December 19, 2011 by Russian Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 As long as it shoots shotgun shells it is a shotgun. The .410 is >.50" bore so it cannot be a DD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
man-at-arms 2 Posted December 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) As long as it shoots shotgun shells it is a shotgun. The .410 is >.50" bore so it cannot be a DD. ...Unless it also shoots .45 cartridges, and is < .50", then apparently it's a pistol. What if somebody added a 16" barrel and stock to a "judge" pistol? Would it then be a SBS? Would seem pretty weird. Why couldn't any .410 that can also fire (feed? hmm) .45 revolver cartridges be taken down to 16" and considered a rifle? If I remember the 1968 stuff correctly, all firearms with bores > .5" are open to categorization as DD by DOJ except shotguns so long as said shotguns are "sporting." Another question in states (such as mine) that allow DDs but don't allow SBRs or SBSs is if a guy could have a 14" barrel S-12 registered as a DD in the same way one may own a 12ga. AOW (such as those door-breecher pistols or -I think- S12s with US AOW receivers and no stocks). Edited December 19, 2011 by man-at-arms Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Just a harmless question that popped into my head after a couple beers, I profusely apologize in advance for whatever rage I provoke. I was just wondering if a 12ga with rifling would legally qualify as a rifle such that its barrel could legally be shortened to 16." Well, since the highly creative industry hasn't exploited this yet, I suppose I should ask "why not?" I was thinking about those gimmicky Taurus Judge pistols and assumed that any legal weirdness is undone by the rifling. Sorry if I pissed anyone off. M@A LOL! You don't know if you don't ask. A word of advice, do not try to understand or make sense of firearms laws.... because they usually do not make sense and will only confuse you further. Now send me a beer.... please. I think that the Judge should be considered an AOW.... just because I hate them and anything that I actually like usually requires a tax stamp. It is a conspiracy.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 As long as it shoots shotgun shells it is a shotgun. The .410 is >.50" bore so it cannot be a DD. ...Unless it also shoots .45 cartridges, and is < .50", then apparently it's a pistol. What if somebody added a 16" barrel and stock to a "judge" pistol? Would it then be a SBS? Would seem pretty weird. Why couldn't any .410 that can also fire (feed? hmm) .45 revolver cartridges be taken down to 16" and considered a rifle? If I remember the 1968 stuff correctly, all firearms with bores > .5" are open to categorization as DD by DOJ except shotguns so long as said shotguns are "sporting." Another question in states (such as mine) that allow DDs but don't allow SBRs or SBSs is if a guy could have a 14" barrel S-12 registered as a DD in the same way one may own a 12ga. AOW (such as those door-breecher pistols or -I think- S12s with US AOW receivers and no stocks). a 16" barrel and stock could be added to a judge and it would be just a rifle, as it is not originally a shotgun, just a pistol that happens to be able to fire shotgun shells, just like .22 and .38s can fire rat shot. not all rifles with bores greater than .5 are destructive devices, some have a sporting exemption like the .600 nitro, .577 nitro, etc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 "a 16" barrel and stock could be added to a judge and it would be just a rifle," There is one made that way, my local gun dealer has one for sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robfromga 39 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 "a 16" barrel and stock could be added to a judge and it would be just a rifle," There is one made that way, my local gun dealer has one for sale. I bet that's a beauty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TapeWorm3 104 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 It is made by Rossi and called the Circuit Judge Nice workmanship on it too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 It is made by Rossi and called the Circuit Judge Nice workmanship on it too. AFAIK, the Circuit Judge has an 18.5" barrel. I always assumed that was because of the SBS laws. I'm pretty sure these manufacturers all inquire w/ ATF and get rulings on this stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 The definition of a shotgun is: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC Since the Judge is NOT fired from the shoulder, it simply cannot be a shotgun. Neither are any pistol-grip-only (PGO) "shotguns" sold by any of the big manufacturers as long as it was originally assembled as a PGO "shotgun". These weapons are known as AOW's, (Any Other Weapon). I feel that you can research that on your own, but the Serbu comes to mind here... Since the Circuit judge can be fired from the shoulder it is now technically a shotgun and must have a barrel length of 18 inches. It is made by Rossi and called the Circuit Judge Nice workmanship on it too. AFAIK, the Circuit Judge has an 18.5" barrel. I always assumed that was because of the SBS laws. I'm pretty sure these manufacturers all inquire w/ ATF and get rulings on this stuff. True, that's why the 28 gauge Judge will never see the light of day again. You might be saying, "But wait, Caged, Taurus didn't make a 28 gauge judge." Exactly, it never got off the design table. ATF destroyed it like it was acres and acres of West Texas grassland in a drought... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CnRnut 3 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 OK so what happens when I add my Hastings rifled barrel to my 870? Does that now make it a DD ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 OK so what happens when I add my Hastings rifled barrel to my 870? Does that now make it a DD ? Is your rifled barrel shorter than 18 inches? If not then nothing, there are many shotguns on the market with rifled barrels, as long as they are >18 inches in length and the shotgun, once modified meets or exceeds your state's overall length requirements... The only time AOW, SBS, or DD is brought into play is when you shorten the weapon beyond what is legal. You could never make an 870 a DD since the only DD shotguns are either full-auto or extreme capacity semi-auto, it COULD become an SBS, but that's about it as I'm sure it came with a butt-stock installed so it could also never be an AOW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 the reason the 28ga judge is not possible is because there is no pistol caliber that can be used in it, making it a 28ga aow, like i said before, the judge is just a 45 colt pistol that happens to be able to fire .410 shells Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Yes, I was referring to a post about the manufacturers checking with the ATF before producing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoshAston 39 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) The definition of a shotgun is: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC Since the Judge is NOT fired from the shoulder, it simply cannot be a shotgun. Neither are any pistol-grip-only (PGO) "shotguns" sold by any of the big manufacturers as long as it was originally assembled as a PGO "shotgun". These weapons are known as AOW's, (Any Other Weapon). I feel that you can research that on your own, but the Serbu comes to mind here... The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. Edited December 20, 2011 by JoshAston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The definition of a shotgun is: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC Since the Judge is NOT fired from the shoulder, it simply cannot be a shotgun. Neither are any pistol-grip-only (PGO) "shotguns" sold by any of the big manufacturers as long as it was originally assembled as a PGO "shotgun". These weapons are known as AOW's, (Any Other Weapon). I feel that you can research that on your own, but the Serbu comes to mind here... The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. Ok, well, you can explain all of that to your local sheriff if he ever finds you in possession of said weapon, I've found that it doesn't really matter whether it's legal or not, it's whether Buford T. Justice thinks you need to go to jail for it or not. I choose to err on the side of caution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoshAston 39 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The definition of a shotgun is: A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC Since the Judge is NOT fired from the shoulder, it simply cannot be a shotgun. Neither are any pistol-grip-only (PGO) "shotguns" sold by any of the big manufacturers as long as it was originally assembled as a PGO "shotgun". These weapons are known as AOW's, (Any Other Weapon). I feel that you can research that on your own, but the Serbu comes to mind here... The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. Ok, well, you can explain all of that to your local sheriff if he ever finds you in possession of said weapon, I've found that it doesn't really matter whether it's legal or not, it's whether Buford T. Justice thinks you need to go to jail for it or not. I choose to err on the side of caution. http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. absolutely not, a shotgun barrel still has to have an 18" barrel, dosnt matter if it's pgo or sewn into a pair of underwear, it's still an aow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoshAston 39 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. absolutely not, a shotgun barrel still has to have an 18" barrel, dosnt matter if it's pgo or sewn into a pair of underwear, it's still an aow. Read the letter I posted above. It's not an AOW or SBS if it's over 26" and never had a stock attached, it's just a Title I "firearm". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. absolutely not, a shotgun barrel still has to have an 18" barrel, dosnt matter if it's pgo or sewn into a pair of underwear, it's still an aow. Read the letter I posted above. It's not an AOW or SBS if it's over 26" and never had a stock attached, it's just a Title I "firearm". a letter really only applies to the person it has been sent to, and if you read the last paragraph it says that the letter only applies to that specific configuration Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Well whoop-te-doo, let's try to keep this a bit simpler for those who are reading this that aren't quite sure of what their own state's laws are... That's that whole "err on the side of caution" thing I was just talking about... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoshAston 39 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The PGO "shotguns" are only AOWs if they are under 26" in overall length. AOW is a Title II classification. If the PGO "shotgun" is over 26" in overall length, it falls under the Title I classification of "firearm", and it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. A 14" barrel with speedfeed style pistol grip should get you to right about 26", and be perfectly legal. Some other firearms that fall under the "firearm" classification are the various Browning belt feds, such as the 1919. The Tippman mini belt feds are in the same class. Since they were never designed to be fired from the shoulder, they don't meet the definition of shotgun or rifle, therefore they don't have to meet the minimum length barrel requirements either. If they are "concealable" (the ATF deems that under 26" in OAL) then they become AOWs. absolutely not, a shotgun barrel still has to have an 18" barrel, dosnt matter if it's pgo or sewn into a pair of underwear, it's still an aow. Read the letter I posted above. It's not an AOW or SBS if it's over 26" and never had a stock attached, it's just a Title I "firearm". a letter really only applies to the person it has been sent to, and if you read the last paragraph it says that the letter only applies to that specific configuration I understand that, but there have been multiple letters similar to that one sent out. Personally, I'd side with Caged and err on the side of caution until there's case law to back up the current ATF opinion. Pretty sure we all know how the ATF likes to change their minds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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