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Hi guys, newbie here, please be gentlebiggrin.png

 

Picked up a Saiga "sporter" model last week that I may tinker with down the road (one reason why I came here is I know I have some questions already lined up down the road), however, the question at hand is if it is normal for the gun to be shooting 11" to the left at 50 yards "out of the box"?

 

Shooting old 123gr russian ammo that I don't even think you can find anymore (probably sitting around my house for at least 10 years).

 

Shooting in the prone position, only about 60 rounds.

 

After I figured out where I was hitting, the gun shot what I thought was some decent groups, however, I will need to get a sight adjustment tool (I'll stay away from the rocks and casings LOL).

 

Going over the instruction manual before I took the gun out back (yes, I do read instructions LOL) seems that the russians have some sort of "accuracy test" out of the box, but if it's shooting 11" off at 50 yards, not sure what kind of testing they do.

 

Overall I really like the gun, just not use to something like that out of the box with irons.

 

Is this normal?

 

I'll see if I can pick up a tool at a shop tomorrow and go out back again to give her another whirl, just wondering if I'm missing something (less shooter's stupidity which I'm trying to eliminate).

 

Thanks

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That much deviation makes me think you've got a bigger problem than the sights being off. Have you checked the front sight block for cant? It might have suffered a fall in shipping or at the gun store that whanged the FSB out of line.

 

Never had a gun with canted sights, but do my fair share of time using irons, and looking at the gun before I left the gun shop, the sights didn't look too bad. Front post may be off center a little, but nothing big (seen worse). The irons didn't tickle my fancy when I first saw them if you know what I mean, but I can't complain about the groups I was getting at 50 yards after getting use to them and that two stage trigger (at least it felt like a two stage trigger). Just HATED that feeling of shooting a 8"x11" paper and not seeing ANY holes in the paper that close when I was out last week using irons at a greater distance with a 5.56 rifle LOL

 

Am I correct from the instructions that 1mm change of deviation on the front sight that windage will come out to about 7.5" at 100 meters?

 

Hopefully I'll have the room to play with them.

Edited by charlieschoice
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Off the top of my head, I don't think those windage adjustment figures are right. If I recall correctly, the standard AK post is 2mm wide, and it does not subtend 15 MOA in the usual FSB position. It's closer to subtending 7-9 MOA, so, by my estimation, 1mm of movement of the front sight post should result in a change of 3.5-4.5 inches at 100 yards.

 

Some more slightly more complex math--and the lazy assumption that the shooter's eye is 25 inches from the front sight post--reveals that a 1mm move translates to roughly 5.5 inches at 100 yards.

Edited by DrThunder88
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Some more slightly more complex math--and the lazy assumption that the shooter's eye is 25 inches from the front sight post--reveals that a 1mm move translates to roughly 5.5 inches at 100 yards.

 

The only thing that scares me is I'm that far off at 50 yards, not 100.

 

"When moving the front sight base at 1 mm the bullet point of impact is shifted at 200 mm (Registering is performed at a 100-m range)" That was per Saiga's manual.

 

All that said, normally when I sight in a gun for 200 yards, I actually shoot the gun at 200 yardsbiggrin.png (meaning I don't trust my math as compared to how I actually shoot LOL)

 

Looking at the front post sight this morning, it does seem adjusted off to the left a little. Being that far off at 50 yards, well, I will just see what happens when I go out back and give her another run.

Edited by charlieschoice
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i have never seen any AK, even a WASR. that shot 11 inches off at 50 yards! I would try first at 25 yards, alttempting to get it POI and POA at 25 yards on the 200 yard setting. I seriously think your FSB must have been canted during shipping.

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Never having to deal with canted sights, what's the "litmus test" physically with the rifle?

 

The last 7.62x39 I had was sold 20 years ago, and although I realize a gun of this nature isn't going to be a tack driver, I didn't expect to be 11" off (as noted however, more than pleased with the grouping)

 

I realize I could just be an idiot, but with the accuracy of some of my other guns I've been shooting (accuracy wise) I'm leaning towards the rifle.

 

$%&* the question on the canting, how do you post a #$%& pic? LMFAO

Edited by charlieschoice
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I think most people just eyeball it. Sometimes it's easier to detect when looking from the FSB back...using all necessary precautions, of course. To be certain, you can use a spirit level to check across the front sight ears and the rear sight leaf. If you have a sufficiently long carpenter's level, you can just rest one end on the rear sight and see if the other end touches the tips of both front sight ears. However, for as huge an offset as your rifle is experiencing, I imagine eyeballing would be sufficient.

 

As for posting a pic, you can use either a dedicated image host like imageshack.com. It might be easier to just hit the "More Reply Options" button underneath the text box in the thread. You can then use the "Attach Files" function to post a picture to the thread.

Edited by DrThunder88
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1325024339.png1325024342.png

As for posting a pic, you can use either a dedicated image host like imageshack.com. It might be easier to just hit the "More Reply Options" button underneath the text box in the thread. You can then use the "Attach Files" function to post a picture to the thread.

 

1325024340.png

 

To be certain, you can use a spirit level to check across the front sight ears and the rear sight leaf. If you have a sufficiently long carpenter's level, you can just rest one end on the rear sight and see if the other end touches the tips of both front sight ears. However, for as huge an offset as your rifle is experiencing, I imagine eyeballing would be sufficient.

 

Thanks for the tips on the pics. Need to get use to it.

 

I'll need to check that later (find a level for the sights, currently my buddy has my long level).

 

Did take out a cleaning rod long enough to set on the front post and run it back to the v notch on the rear sight. The cleaning rod looked like a "straight line" from the rear sight to the front, running directly over the bore/barrel in the same straight line.

 

You're right about most likely being able to eyeball it for how far off it seems, one reason why I posted though is that looking at it, I may be completely missing it (the cant).

 

If it is canted, I sincerely don't think it happened during shipping. Box only had to travel about 70 miles from the distributor to my gun shop. I know the gun shop owner and his wife, and I know if something happened it didn't happen on his end. The front sight post was also encased in styrofoam and the box looked in good condition. I can't help but think it would of had to been a good wallop during transit that would of done something visible to the box.

 

Sight tool should be in tomorrow, if it doesn't rain, out back I go again.

 

Sincere thank you for all the feedback, much appreciated.

Edited by charlieschoice
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the very first pic looks odd, but that could be camera angle. Makes it look like a canted RSB

 

Looking at the pic you're commenting on, I agree.

 

To give you a better idea

 

1325086326.png

 

I can't help but think that being that far off to the left, if it were canted, it would be more profound to notice with the eye.

 

I'm wondering if it's just me, but I find it hard to believe that I'd be that far left "on my own" but there is the possibility I could be eating crow within the week. I'll run more ammo to see where it's at.

Edited by charlieschoice
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If it groups well, who cares? maybe it just got bumped. Just adjust the front sight a bit at a time, and just "sight it in" as it would be. I have Never owned an iron sight rifle that did not need some adjustment.

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My saiga also shot high left @ 50 yards out the box. On a 12x12 inch target I would have to aim somewhere towards the bottom right of the target to hit around the center.

 

This was from a bench with a wooden block somewhere under the handguard. Maybe the wooden block affected accuracy? I heard that the bottom of the receiver below the front trunnion might be sensitive and affect accuracy. Perhaps the screw for the handguard does something to it.

 

Maybe the barrel needs to be broken in or something.

 

Either way I did a conversion and have been practicing at an indoor range at 10 or so yards, and the sights seem to be on pretty good so far. After some practice with the gun I will take it to a 50 yard range again to see if it still has issues.

 

Also, for some reason I dont think that they actually sight the rifle in at the factory. I think that they just put the front sight as straight as possible on the barrel, then just shoot the gun at a large piece of paper and measure the grouping without actually using the sights.

 

Out of curiosity, have you had any experience with any other AKs, 7.62s, or any other similar caliber rifles in semi-auto?

 

EDIT: should also add that using a bore laser, the iron sights are on target at 30 yards. I should also mention that I catch myself anticipating recoil occasionally with the 762. Im leaning towards user error in my case.

Edited by Agent Lemon
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Two things I can think of are left to be the culprit; you and the ammo. Undersized or out of spec ammunition could cause POI to be off, also shooter flinching, pulling or whatever the case may be could cause you to send rounds more left than when you started pulling the trigger.

 

I suggest trying a different box of ammunition (different as in go buy a box not use another box you might have left of the same), I had a box of 5.45x39 that was loaded with 5.56 bullets, not something you could see by eye, but kept getting stuck in the throat and finally put a caliper to it and it was in fact oversized for the load it was supposed to be.

 

its not uncommon for a shooter new or old to anticipate recoil, use too much trigger finger or a number of other habits that would effect follow through or sight picture. I would think that typically the amount of error you'd see in a long gun at the range you've stated would be less than 11'', but maybe you could see if someone else would have the same luck if they shot your gun at the same range.

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I would'nt think there is anyting wrong at all unless you have already adjusted the front sight to bring your group over to the right, and it did not work. They have Adjustable sights for a Reason! Am I missing something here? Where did you hear any promise of a rifle being spot on out of the box?

The factory could very well have shot a decent group that happened to be way left. I don't think they actually "Sight in" your rifle, they just shoot a group and measure it.

You seem to have invented a problem here.

Get a sight adjustment tool, move the front post to the left and try it out.

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Thanks for the responses again.

 

1. I don't expect a rifle to "spot on" out of the box, however I've never experienced something this far at 50 yards. I was hoping for some feedback along the lines of "yeah, out of the box it can be that far off"

 

2. Three weeks ago I was out shooting irons on a 5.56 at 200 yards and was more than satisfied with my groups and where the bullets were hitting. The week before that another gun in a 5.56 at irons at 100, and some would consider the groups (and accuracy) no too bad. Although my eyes are getting older and I know I need glasses, I believe I can still hit what I'm aiming at. That said, I also realize it can take time to become accustom to a different sight picture which this Saiga has

 

3. I'm trying to eliminate (by having people give me their opinion) on any variables that I may not be considering with the Saiga because I'm not familiar with that rifle

 

4. My dumb butt mistake for not getting a sight tool. I could of swore I still had one left over from a long time ago when I had sold a (regretfully) an AK a long time ago, but can't find it. I had to borrow one yesterday as the one I had ordered last week STILL hasn't shown up yet

 

5. I been shooting long enough to realize that sometimes the amount of money spent on a gun does not always equate to it's accuracy. That said, if I spend money on a gun, I do expect it to shoot "decent" (for it's caliber and model, and realize a gun of this nature isn't a "tack driver" out of the box) after it get's "tweaked". IMO if it can be shown that for whatever reason the gun isn't accurate, it should go back to where you bought it for the problem to be fixed at no expense to the buyer (as long as it's not a private build). HOWEVER, when one buys a gun, IMO one should not go back to where one bought the firearm six months or a year later expecting the problem to be resolved. Part of the reason why I asked here about the accuracy out of the box BEFORE I finally tweaked the gun.

 

6. In hindsight, what I should of done is adjust the front sight BEFORE posting a question on accuracy, but again, wanted to ensure that I wasn't missing anything the next time I go out

 

7. I just picked up more (different make) ammo to try

 

8. My primary concern has been addressed, that being the rifle does not look like it has a mechanical issue (canted sights for one)

 

9. I have other ammo now, the sight tool, and time this afternoon. I will try to rectify the problem today.

 

10. I'm not the brightest tool in the shed, apologies. I will sight the weapon in at 25 yards this time, and then if have the time, take her out to 200

 

11. If I can get the gun sighted in "decent" today, she can go into hibernation for the winter and I won't have to worry about (yes, I'm getting too old to the point where shooting in freezing weather isn't fun for me anymore LOL)

 

12. If the gun can't be sighted in to my expectation (at least getting on the paper LOL) I will have to have another set of eyes come over and give her a try

Edited by charlieschoice
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FYI

 

With the front sight pushed as far left as it can possibly go (prone position). Apologies for the redneck target paper, each "dot" at the top represents an inch LOL

 

1325360036.png

 

Although not perfect and still have to get use to the sights, another 18 rounds rapid fire on the same target

 

1325360040.png

 

Although far from perfect, much better than it was previously shooting. OLD ammo mixed in with the new stuff pretty much shot the same. Son didn't want to go out back with me and instead wanted to play with his grand dad who was visiting out of state over the holidays so I didn't get to push it out to 200 like I wanted to, but ran 20 quick rounds at 50 yards, and can't really complain (by far much better accuracy than the last time out).

 

Guess the sights CAN be that far off out of the box.

 

In a perfect world I would like to bring it in to the right a little more, but I can compensate pretty easy using the left corner of the front sight (what I did at 50 yards). As long as the gun goes bang every time and I can pretty much not have worry about "babying" it, I can't complain for the money spent on it.

Edited by charlieschoice
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That looks pretty good. I guess if it's at the extreme limit of adjustability, that means it's still within spec.

 

Does make me wonder if I cant the FSB ever so slightly to the left I can bring it dead center. I'll leave well enough for alone for now.

 

I stand corrected, the second pic is not of the same target.

 

Did notice that the screw for the lower hand guard did come loose during the sighting in process.

 

On that note, after taking her apart to clean last night, is there an easier trick for reinstalling the lower hand guard?

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I have had that problem with the screw on the lower handguard before. I don't think its a big deal, but then again, don't exactly know why it does it to me. Just make sure that you tighten those screws as much as possible, use pliers to turn the hex key for the extra tightness. If you really wanted to I'm sure you could use locktite, but I wouldn't recommend it.

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I have had that problem with the screw on the lower handguard before. I don't think its a big deal, but then again, don't exactly know why it does it to me. Just make sure that you tighten those screws as much as possible, use pliers to turn the hex key for the extra tightness. If you really wanted to I'm sure you could use locktite, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

 

Blue Loctite is your friend.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I may have missed something, are these the facts? . at 25 yards and full windage adjustment on your front sight plus a kentucky windage of holding to the right by using the left edge of your front sight you are now centered for windage?

 

If that is what you had to do your rifle has a problem. the trinion fit is off or something else not alinged during its manufacturing. take it back to the dealer who will send it back to the distributor and he will send you a new one. The less that you mess with it the better, Be sure that you don't leave any marks on it trying to fix it yourself. A rifle that dosn't hit hit to point of aim when purchased is not unusual, however I would never accept one that had to be ajusted to its maximum and was still off. Also have someone else shoot it, Not that you are lacking in skill, but it is a fact that a rifle that is sighted in for one person is not necessarly so for someone else. This is an extreme case, however I purchased a expensive scope recently and when I looked at it at home just to the right of center the redicial was slightly bent. Before taking it back I looked thru another of my scopes and it was bent too, all my scopes were. I am almost 70 and I have stigimgtism in my right eye and it had gotten worse and caused the redicle to look bent.

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I may have missed something, are these the facts? . at 25 yards and full windage adjustment on your front sight plus a kentucky windage of holding to the right by using the left edge of your front sight you are now centered for windage?

 

If that is what you had to do your rifle has a problem. the trinion fit is off or something else not alinged during its manufacturing. take it back to the dealer who will send it back to the distributor and he will send you a new one. The less that you mess with it the better, Be sure that you don't leave any marks on it trying to fix it yourself. A rifle that dosn't hit hit to point of aim when purchased is not unusual, however I would never accept one that had to be ajusted to its maximum and was still off. Also have someone else shoot it, Not that you are lacking in skill, but it is a fact that a rifle that is sighted in for one person is not necessarly so for someone else. This is an extreme case, however I purchased a expensive scope recently and when I looked at it at home just to the right of center the redicial was slightly bent. Before taking it back I looked thru another of my scopes and it was bent too, all my scopes were. I am almost 70 and I have stigimgtism in my right eye and it had gotten worse and caused the redicle to look bent.

 

I agree with you. Your line of thinking is exactly like mine, thus the reason for one of my fist post on this forum not knowing the rifle in general, even though per a visual inspection nothing seems wrong.

 

However I do like the gun and am getting use to it, particularly having to use the "left corner edge" of the front sight post. I KNOW that sounds dumb, but with my older eyes, I'm finding it easier to acquire and see the target (as I've said, I'm pushing a half century in age and I know I need glasses).

 

Just out on Friday with a couple of friends (both who have much younger eyes) and honestly I shot the weapon better then they did at all different ranges. That said, they don't shoot with irons much anymore, although one was a former 11 Bravo, so he knows how to use irons.

 

At 100 yards I could nail a pumpkin with multiple shots no problem, and could dump everything into an 8"x11" target as fast as I could pull the trigger at that range as well, and the groups weren't all over the place.

 

I've also noticed that with the trigger, with a little practice, you can get extremely fast double taps, to the point where other people wonder what kind of gun you really have LOL

 

Sounds stupid, but I LIKE the sight picture using the left corner of the front sight post, and if I couldn't get good groups and shoot it good, the gun would be going back in a heartbeat.

 

Don't get me wrong, if the gun cost as much as some of my others, it would be totally unacceptable, but for the price, and being it's a great beater gun, can't complain.

 

With my luck, I send the gun back, they send me a new one that is "perfect" per the front sight post, and then I won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn (if that makes any sense per my line of thinking).

 

All my weapons are well maintained. I don't think sending it back would be a problem if I wanted to.

 

I know a couple of good 'smiths in the area that don't charge an arm and a leg, might thread the barrel for a flash suppressor (does throw some flame I've noticed) might have them look at the FSB as well and see if they can't figure it out and get some more input if it should go back or perhaps an easy fix.

Edited by charlieschoice
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One thing I noticed on my SGL 21-61 was the rear sight was off. If you look at CPF's avatar, this is how the sights would look in a perfect world

 

av-30026.png

 

On my rear sight, the holes in the trunion weren't machined "straight", and the right side of the rear sight is cocked up about .003-.005". This was causing me to tilt the front sight to the right, thus throwing my POA/POI left. I haven't popped the rear sight yet, but local smith said it could be something as simple as a burr or needing a little fine tuning with a needle file.

Also, invest in some good commercial ammo for sighting in. I bought Winchester White Box and reloaded the brass for hunting. *NOTE* Winchester is now using .311 bullets instead of .308. Here's what I was doing at 25 yards with mine:

P1010881.jpg

The group above the "9" were all WWB. The lower shots are Tulammo. At 100 yards with Tulammo(marked it Uly by mistake), sight locked in "1" notch(100 meters). I punched a 3" bull and glued the rtarget to white cardboard.

P1010884.jpg

 

These 5 were with the rifle mechanical zeroed at 25 yds.

A local LEO instructor spotted what I was doing, and helped me hold her steady. We bumped the target to 50 yds for this one.

Last5rounds.jpg

And here's the Russian sight in target for mechanical zero, similar to the AR target:

AKtarget1.jpg

I printed this, and used it as a chart for the 6x10 Dirty Birds($4.96 per 10 at Hell-wart). The red center in the Dirty Bird is the same size as the silouhette on the sight in target. The only thing I couldn't nail down was where to lock the rear sight. Consensus seems to be lock it in the "battle setting(300yds), sight it in for mechanical zero, then fine tune it at 100 yds. I simply leave mine locked at the battle setting, as I don't forsee taking 300 yd shots with this rifle. Besides, I have a Belarus mount and plan on a red dot sight anyways.

 

From what I've found on the net, if you can put all the rounds in a 16" circle at 200 yds, Kalashakov would approve. Me, I want it to perform just as good as my SKS at 100 yds on a 12" square with a reference line:

P1010886-1.jpg

first 10 were low, but last 30.....I guess you could say it shoots MOD....Minute Of Dead.

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