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New Saiga 12 Owner with some NOOB questions


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Hi people. I m new to the site and I am new proud owner of a Saiga 12 biggrin.png Coming from a more AR-15 type platform, I am not really familiar with the AK. I have found informative information on google and youtube on these guns and have fun learning on the types of modifications that can be done. I need to be more informed about 922 r complaince, but that's another story that I have to do more research on. But I have a few question if you more experienced Saiga 12 owners would care to answer. Please be aware that I at this moment in research mode so when I learn more on 922 r will be able to discern if legal to do planned mods. Ok, so to the questions. And yes, I tried the search area with no results. I appreciate any help and I thank you in advanced.

 

Q1. SGM Tactical is Surefire? Is SGMT a sister company of Surefire? We are talking about the same company from the site below, correct?

http://www.surefire.com/

 

Q2. Single hook FCG vs double hook. What is the difference (beside the obvious) and the advantages/disadvantages? Or maybe this does not pertain to our Saiga 12's and may not matter.

 

Q3. S12 stock trigger, not so great. I liked the dry firing I did at a local gun store with a modified Saiga 12 (with pistol grip and stock replacement etc...) that I was told had Tapco FCG. I see there is a Tromix FCG that has a “G2” part that comes with it. I am assuming this “G2” part is from a Tapco G2 FCG and modified to just drop in the Siaga 12 where as the Tapco G2 FCG itself may require a slight modification to be used in S12's, correct?

 

Q4. JTE magwells and SGM Tactical magwells are for use with Surefire (?SGMT? Back to Q1) magazines. Any recommendation buying one from the other?

 

Side note: My S12 is bone stock and reliability is key (if needed) for HD. I have less than 200 round down this thing and is fun to shot at the range with bulk ammo. Even with the crude trigger/stock and all, I am thinking of buying another lol .Aside from my Sig Mosquito, this is the second funnest gun I own. Shooting cheap and often is way great!

 

Note:I am here to learn so If i am wrong in something I will gladly take corrections or criticism. I am a self proclaimed NOOB (dont know s***) in the S12 world and I appreciate the feedback I am receiving.

Edited by Joe6801
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You seem to be pretty adept already.

 

The double hook requires modification to the trigger slot whereas the single hook doesn't. I've always rocked the single hook, that's how Kalashnikov designed it.

 

I'm pretty sure that SGM tactical (Surefire Gun Mags) is a different company than the Surefire that produces the torches.

 

You really want to be sure that you want a magwell, sure it greatly speeds up tactical re-loads but basically negates any chances of running a 20 round drum.

 

I prefer AGP mags over Surefire. I have a Surefire with a broken feed lip in the back of my truck. I have an AGP in my weapon...

Edited by Caged
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Hello, I'm new to the site as well, and I am in the process of converting my first Saiga 12...I am familiar with AK's though, having built and fired several variants over the years. The Saiga 12 is pretty much the same profile, except semi auto. My experience is mainly with the select fire versions.

 

Regarding the single hook vs the double hook, honestly in my experiences there isn't much difference between the two styles. The dreaded trigger slap is usually caused by oversized disconnectors that are more common in single hook set ups, hence the false notion that the double hook set up is the cure. A single hook properly polished and tuned will perform just as good. The Tapco G2 fcg is made for AK's, not the Saiga 12...you need to either get a trigger group specifically made to drop in the Saiga 12, like the Tromix, or you can get an AK trigger group and grind it to fit.

 

As far as I know, SGM and Surefire are two separate entities, although both do manufacture magazines. As far as magwells, I plan on staying with the factory set up, as I have no need for a tactical reloading set up, plus you are limited to using the mags specific to your set up. I recommend neither one.

 

Good luck with your project!

Edited by tunnelrat
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You seem to be pretty adept already. The double hook requires modification to the trigger slot whereas the single hook doesn't. I've always rocked the single hook, that's how Kalashnikov designed it. I'm pretty sure that SGM tactical (Surefire Gun Mags) is a different company than the Surefire that produces the torches. You really want to be sure that you want a magwell, sure it greatly speeds up tactical re-loads but basically negates any chances of running a 20 round drum. I prefer AGP mags over Surefire. I have a Surefire with a broken feed lip in the back of my truck. I have an AGP in my weapon...

Surefire also produces magazines like the MAG-60 and MAG-100 which are 60 and 100 round double stacked AR mags. They look pretty sweet. But that why I assumed it was the same company. AGP magazine are cheaper that Surefire (SGMT) so the “you get what you pay for” adage rang in my mind. So what is considered the most reliable of all the mags? Why is the AGP cheaper? I hear some crack in low temperatures, unless that has been fixed with that company’s mags (ProMag)

Hello, I'm new to the site as well, and I am in the process of converting my first Saiga 12...I am familiar with AK's though, having built and fired several variants over the years. The Saiga 12 is pretty much the same profile, except semi auto. My experience is mainly with the select fire versions. Regarding the single hook vs the double hook, honestly in my experiences there isn't much difference between the two styles. The dreaded trigger slap is usually caused by oversized disconnectors that are more common in single hook set ups, hence the false notion that the double hook set up is the cure. A single hook properly polished and tuned will perform just as good. The Tapco G2 fcg is made for AK's, not the Saiga 12...you need to either get a trigger group specifically made to drop in the Saiga 12, like the Tromix, or you can get an AK trigger group and grind it to fit. As far as I know, SGM and Surefire are two separate entities, although both do manufacture magazines. As far as magwells, I plan on staying with the factory set up, as I have no need for a tactical reloading set up, plus you are limited to using the mags specific to your set up. I recommend neither one. Good luck with your project!

Reason why I would want to go with the magwells is because the Saigas that are supposedly used by the Spetsnaz, have magwells on them. So I though, if its good enough for them , its good enough for me. Yeah, I would loose the sweet capacity of having some never ending trigger time at the range with a drum, but the reality of it is that in an HD situation set-up, a drum will not be the first thing I will place on the Saiga for reliability reasons, It will be a mag. And I am already used to mags changes with my AR so my transition from AR to AK platform would be eased J

 

Looks like I will go with Tromix ready-to-go ones, much appreciated.

Edited by Joe6801
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In my humble opinion, I've found that AGP is better quality, but just about any mag will work for you if you treat it right. I shot 3" magnum rounds with my Surefire 12 rounder, the front tab broke off after a few hundred rounds.

 

It's a moot point though if you are choosing to go magwell since the point of stress for the mag will move from two small points front and rear to four huge points on each side of the mag.

 

The Saigas used by Spetsnaz, have parts on them that simply aren't available over here yet.

Oh, and the 20 round drums don't provide never ending trigger time, it's usually around 4-6 seconds worth of trigger time...haha.gif

 

With all of this research and learning that you are doing before you get yours, you are going to have one sweet weapon when you get done. Remember to POST PICS!!!!greedy.gif

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You really want to be sure that you want a magwell, sure it greatly speeds up tactical re-loads but basically negates any chances of running a 20 round drum.

 

I prefer AGP mags over Surefire. I have a Surefire with a broken feed lip in the back of my truck. I have an AGP in my weapon...

 

+1 for AGP and +1 for thinking on the magwell.

 

I bought an MD20 and shot it up a bunch. Sure is fun, but I found that for practical purposes it was lacking. It is well built, and reliable, but it is just too big and bulky and mag changes are just too slow for what I do with my S12. Even two 10rd stick mags taped together has an advantage over the drum, in terms of handiness I find. There is no doubt, though, that dumping a drum is a great time. It really depends on what you want to optimize your S12 for.

 

So, I sold my drum and am going magwell.. just have to sort out a few more details of my order and then CSS gets more of my money this weekend. Yay!

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I can reccomend JTE magwell over Surefire. It is the original US version, and aluminum. Customer service is a selling point too. He'll be very helpful if you need it. You might wait and get his new one that can take un-modified mags and drums. Just buy the standard Surefires and fit them after you make your choice. I have heard that the factory fit ones can be kinda loose.

 

SGM was surefire gun mags. I think they renamed to avoid confusion with the flashlight company that is now making magazines too.

Surefire and AGP seem to be coke and pepsi. You will find that there have been almost no failures for either after the first few batches worked the bugs out.

 

As for the trigger if you are leaving it plain, both are fine. Old debate with no real resolution as both work. You will find people who know what they are talking about with either. However;

Do some forum searches. There is one advantage to a double hook. If you are handy, it is easy to modify for pre-travel by cutting a notch under the right hook. I did this and made a spacer to limit over travel very easily. This requires using a cheaper un-modified G2 double hook set and doing the hammer profile and shortenning the axle tube for the BHO yourself. Again very easy. if you have a belt sander, dremel or $15 harbor freight angle grinder you should be able to do it in under 20 minutes. Look at the pictures. If it looks like something you feel comfortable doing, it is worth the effort. Oh and worst case scenario is that you over grind the stop and end up with the same trigger pull you have with a single hook.

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In my humble opinion, I've found that AGP is better quality, but just about any mag will work for you if you treat it right. I shot 3" magnum rounds with my Surefire 12 rounder, the front tab broke off after a few hundred rounds.

 

It's a moot point though if you are choosing to go magwell since the point of stress for the mag will move from two small points front and rear to four huge points on each side of the mag.

 

The Saigas used by Spetsnaz, have parts on them that simply aren't available over here yet.

Oh, and the 20 round drums don't provide never ending trigger time, it's usually around 4-6 seconds worth of trigger time...haha.gif

 

With all of this research and learning that you are doing before you get yours, you are going to have one sweet weapon when you get done. Remember to POST PICS!!!!greedy.gif

 

Ok, general current consensus says AGP mags stand more of a beating and are highly reliable. Awesome. Well aside from the OEM magwell, OEM mags for use with this magwell, and the LRBHO (used by the Spetsnaz ), we have an American variant of these except the LRBHO. These equivalent parts are made in America so they should be as good, if not better, right? smile.png Talking about that LRBHO, I have not seen an American manufacturer making one? I am just not using google correctly or has not one company have made an equivalent in the U.S.? I feel like I am trying to find the Chupa Cabras (see pic below) XD

Pic will be posted, for sure. Right now it is in humble mode sad.png

220px-Chupacabras.JPG

 

 

You really want to be sure that you want a magwell, sure it greatly speeds up tactical re-loads but basically negates any chances of running a 20 round drum.

 

I prefer AGP mags over Surefire. I have a Surefire with a broken feed lip in the back of my truck. I have an AGP in my weapon...

 

+1 for AGP and +1 for thinking on the magwell.

 

I bought an MD20 and shot it up a bunch. Sure is fun, but I found that for practical purposes it was lacking. It is well built, and reliable, but it is just too big and bulky and mag changes are just too slow for what I do with my S12. Even two 10rd stick mags taped together has an advantage over the drum, in terms of handiness I find. There is no doubt, though, that dumping a drum is a great time. It really depends on what you want to optimize your S12 for.

 

So, I sold my drum and am going magwell.. just have to sort out a few more details of my order and then CSS gets more of my money this weekend. Yay!

LOL, I feel ya. I get paid once and in the beginning of the month so I will have plenty of time to plan my own Saiga 12 mods.

 

So far on my list are:

  1. Tromix FCG
  2. 2.JTE power hammer spring
  3. Tromix “smooth” charging handle ext.
  4. JTE AR-15 trigger guard
  5. JTE or SGMT magwell
  6. RAM-ext mag release
  7. Houge AR-15 grip

 

Contemplating on:

  1. Chaos Titan Quad Rail (but I have questions on it)
  2. Left side stock folder (K-VAR AK-BFS)
  3. Red Jacket flash hider/breacher or JTE Comp brake, or, or ....wait for it....the Tromix Monster brake!

On the Chaos Quad Rail I need to see if the “H&K style” (what model they are styled off?) sights will be able to accept Trijicon night sights for it since the S12 will be used for HD. Also, since I am not too familiar with the AK platform I dont know if any AK stock will fit, if I have to cut the tangs off, put some type of mounting block, welding required...all that stuff.

Edited by Joe6801
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He'll be very helpful if you need it. You might wait and get his new one that can take un-modified mags and drums

:o Now that would be the ultimate magwell! But how would this new mag well use drums and unmodified mags? It must be a completely new re-design.

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From what I can tell it latches from both ends. I think it will likely require a cut out in your receiver to allow the front lug to clear. If so, it would mean you would either need to fab a filler plate or weld the notch back in to revert. Not that I have ever had desire to revert with mine, at all. Since his is compatible with all present drums, I see no reason that anyone would want to--ever.

 

He has video of the prototype and has the first production batch being machined now. It doesn't look quite as clean as present designs for the stick mags, but very close and more versatile.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/72925-video-magazine-well-for-md-drums-and-all-factory-magazines/page__hl__magwell

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I hope you aren't trying to attack me here Joe, I'm trying to help you.

 

Like if I were to point out that Cadiz Gun Works is an American company and makes a LRBHO retro-fit.

 

Or, the fact that KVAR sells S-12s equipped with LRBHO's out-of-the-box.

 

But since I obviously don't have a clue what I'm talking about, you'll probably quote me (and not entirely I might add) and post a picture of a Sleestack and call it a Chupacabra...

 

Good luck using the same gas block, piston, and operating rod as the Spetsnaz, I'm done with you...

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From what I can tell it latches from both ends. I think it will likely require a cut out in your receiver to allow the front lug to clear. If so, it would mean you would either need to fab a filler plate or weld the notch back in to revert. Not that I have ever had desire to revert with mine, at all. Since his is compatible with all present drums, I see no reason that anyone would want to--ever.

 

He has video of the prototype and has the first production batch being machined now. It doesn't look quite as clean as present designs for the stick mags, but very close and more versatile.

 

http://forum.saiga-1...ge__hl__magwell

Looks slim and short. I could hardly see the magwell but I can see that the shooter reloaded quite fast with it. Nice.

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I hope you aren't trying to attack me here Joe, I'm trying to help you.

 

Like if I were to point out that Cadiz Gun Works is an American company and makes a LRBHO retro-fit.

 

Or, the fact that KVAR sells S-12s equipped with LRBHO's out-of-the-box.

 

But since I obviously don't have a clue what I'm talking about, you'll probably quote me (and not entirely I might add) and post a picture of a Sleestack and call it a Chupacabra...

 

Good luck using the same gas block, piston, and operating rod as the Spetsnaz, I'm done with you...

No offense was meant. Thank you for pointing to the right direction about the LRBHO. For what it is worth about the Cupacabra thing, it was off wikipedia and they do label it as a Cupacabra (I really dont know how one looks :/ ). My failed attempt to use a metaphor to convey my failure to finding the LRBHO was by no means meant to be read as sarcastic or insulting.

Edited by Joe6801
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Military use or lack thereof isn't determinative for me. That mostly means that this was the choice of a bureaucratic process, and likely the lowest bidder.

 

There is a lot of great stuff the military never adopted, and a lot of junk they did. I do put some weight on what soldiers spend their own money on and are still using at the end of a campaign. However, I know that a soldier uses his weapon a lot differently than I do, so will have different needs.

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Military use or lack thereof isn't determinative for me. That mostly means that this was the choice of a bureaucratic process, and likely the lowest bidder.

 

There is a lot of great stuff the military never adopted, and a lot of junk they did. I do put some weight on what soldiers spend their own money on and are still using at the end of a campaign. However, I know that a soldier uses his weapon a lot differently than I do, so will have different needs.

True, but I would assume the Russian Special Forces are exempt form this bureaucracy just like our Navy Seals still use 45 ACP 1911's (which are not standard issue) vs 9mm Barreta's. 1911's are used by the Seals because they are effective and get the job done, or any weapon for that matter. The S12 magwell (OEM version) helps reload and keeps the fire outbound, that is just plain effectiveness. But I may be wrong. I just figure, there is an "elite" force, you see what they use and make your own opinion on what type of usage you can apply for yourself. In this case a 12 GA auto-loader shotgun for HD.

Edited by Joe6801
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Mostly my point is that in our own use, and with the combined experience of the forum, I think we have enough evidence to show that most of the accepted domestic magazines are at least as reliable as military hardware, i.e. AR accessories, and a ton of AK stuff that doesn't work until you tweak it.

 

We don't need rely on marketing info about a handful of guys in spetsnaz to know if our guns work. Maybe the Russian 8's are built tougher, but I don't see surefires, MD 20s or AGPs failing either.

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