Akdal 1919 ok in NY, but S-12 w/pg not?

[emr454 1]

I think I may be missing something here... In NY we cannot have S-12's with a pistol grip. If we want to convert them they have to have thumbhole stocks to comply with NYS laws.

 

The other day I was at my local sporting goods store and lo and behold, they have the Akdal 1919 for sale, which is an autoloading shotgun with a pistol grip and detachable magazine. So why is it that we S-12 owners can't put a pg on our guns but 1919's are allowed? Am I missing something that is blatanly obvious?

 

Eric

Edited January 8, 2012 by emr454

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Yeap, there is 2 in a store local to me also. One is a very nice bone collector camo model.

 

I don't have a good explanation for it. All of my armchair lawyer-fu tells me it should be illigal, but yet here they are en mass.

 

And theres still people out there worried about putting a thumbhole stock on a S-12 as being a "grey" zone. Funny No?

[emr454 1]

Very funny indeed. I was hesitant to even mention it but I just couldn't figure it out and was hoping it wasn't just me.

 

BTW, I Just recently converted my S-12 using the Bulgarian skeleton stock similar to yours. I'm not usually a fan of thumbhole style stocks but this one is awesome!

 

Eric

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Its a great stock. I love the length of pull, and grip has more than enough meat for a mans hand, its light and durable.

 

If it has a downside its lack of stock fitting buttpads, and a lack of places to put mercury tubes. Both minor things in my opinion, felt recoil can be changed by having good form.

[emr454 1]

I was wondering about slip on recoil pads. I havent shot it yet (still need a FCG) but I can imagine that thin stock being a punisher with heavy 12ga. loads.

 

Eric

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I wouldn't say its bad. Hold it in tight to your shoulder and make sure you leaning in, you'll be fine.

[YOT 3,743]

I don't get it either, but hey, what do I know....

 

I do know some firearms dealers in NY stock LEO ONLY items.

 

Because of: NYS Penal Law Article 265.20 states:

 

 

§ 265.20 Exemptions.

a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11,

265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:

1. Possession of any of the weapons, instruments, appliances or

substances specified in sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05

and 270.05 by the following:............................It's a long list

Edited January 8, 2012 by Yeoldetool

[Nailbomb 10,221]

My big wonder is IF

 

If this was some massive oversight and they were never supposed to be allowed in, How would I be handled as a owner innocently enough buying one from a chain sporting goods store?

 

Is the legal issue on the person bringing it into the state or me?

[YOT 3,743]

No, One would have to show their LEO credentials for purchase. The same way I can purchase hicap mags. It is up to the dealer if they want to sell LEO Only items and it is up to them to know the law also. It's their license.

 

Some dealers even want a verification of employment on departmental letterhead for their records.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Yeoldetool

[dep714 10]

Not trying to muddy the waters any further, but this website http://www.nraila.or...awpdfs/NYSL.pdf, ( which has been used in other posts on this forum), mentions this clause:

 

 

Assault weapons does not include:

• any rifle, shotgun or pistol that: is manually operated

by bolt, pump, lever or slide action; or has been

rendered permanently inoperable; or

• An antique firearm as defined under federal law

• A semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable

magazine that holds more than five rounds of

ammunition;

• A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than

five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable

magazine;

 

I was kind of left with the impression that since the 1919 has only a five round capacity mag, someone could possibly make an argument that it was conceivably legal in N.Y.S. for the time being or at least in factory configuration( ie; something like a 922 situation). All subject to change once aftermarket parts hit the market(the rumored high cap mags).

 

 

The other possibility is that the dealers just don't know or care.

 

Just a theory, not trying to stir anything up, I really don't have a dog in this fight. The Saiga addiction is more than I can handle most days.

[sickness 89]

Yeap, there is 2 in a store local to me also. One is a very nice bone collector camo model.

 

I don't have a good explanation for it. All of my armchair lawyer-fu tells me it should be illigal, but yet here they are en mass.

 

And theres still people out there worried about putting a thumbhole stock on a S-12 as being a "grey" zone. Funny No?

 

The 1919 has a 5rd mag, and there are no hi-caps available. That is why it is legal.

 

You want to look at the definitions section, 265 e.iii .. it is the "sporting use" exemption to the assault criteria. 265 e.v is the "grandfather" or "pre-ban" exemption.

 

Be VERY careful with this. When someone makes a mag greater than 5rd in capacity, the 1919 will be illegal in NY, regardless of whether one possesses such a magazine.

 

As to the S12 and PGs and shit, if > 5rd mags didn't exist for it, it would be legal to put a PG, folding stock, and whatever the hell else you want on your gun. It's all about the capacity.

 

And, no offense to you or anyone else, but this illustrates why "armchair lawyer-fu" and what you read on the net in general about law should be taken with a grain of salt. The law is ridiculously complex and fine points abound.. the only reason I know about this exemption stuff is because I've sat down with my gun-loving attorney buddy over beers many times and discussed this shit. It is by no means obvious, though it is simple once pointed out. I don't make ANY decisions about law without giving that dude a call. 9 times out of 10, he tells me what I already know.. its that 10th time that makes it all worth it.

Edited January 8, 2012 by sickness

[akastormi 617]

sickness, I got to agree with you. I'm seeing them pop up in every shop I visit. I'm nosey, I asked, and was told they are legal in NY for LACK of high cap mags.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I don't have any friends that close that are lawyers and into firearms to have a beer with over.

 

If your a lawyer and in NY apply for this position now!

 

In any event, you can easily see from where my first post I was asking about the legality of a thumbhole on a S-12 myself, to where I am discussing the finer points of importation laws made under the Clinton administration and the spirit of the law when it was passed. I've read the law, and I was aware of that loophole, but it didn't occur to me to actually have it apply to anything. It seems like a cruel trap if as soon as a high cap is made for it its illegal. I guess I never thought of that stipulation as i never saw it of any real consequence before.

[emr454 1]

Ok, that makes more sense now.

 

Does anyone think there will be a "grandfather" clause once/if hi-cap mags are available?

 

Eric

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Does anyone think there will be a "grandfather" clause once/if hi-cap mags are available?

Don't count on it, but if you can make arrangements for your gun out of state in the event something happens then...

 

Just know that by what we are discussing here its a risk. Roll the dice as you see fit.

 

I might put that bone collector model on layaway, I can have family out of state hold it for me in the event of the worse.

[emr454 1]

Gotcha.

 

I was just wondering, not like I have $700 to plunk down on one right now. It's too bad we are even forced to have this discussion.

 

Eric

[sickness 89]

I don't have any friends that close that are lawyers and into firearms to have a beer with over.

 

If your a lawyer and in NY apply for this position now!

 

In any event, you can easily see from where my first post I was asking about the legality of a thumbhole on a S-12 myself, to where I am discussing the finer points of importation laws made under the Clinton administration and the spirit of the law when it was passed. I've read the law, and I was aware of that loophole, but it didn't occur to me to actually have it apply to anything. It seems like a cruel trap if as soon as a high cap is made for it its illegal. I guess I never thought of that stipulation as i never saw it of any real consequence before.

 

No doubt.. there are so many points in 265 that it is pretty tough to keep track of all the points and apply them in practice. And it is ridiculous that a gun can be legal today, and production of a high-cap mag tomorrow will affect the legality. In fact, that provision of the law is essentially untested, at least when we checked some years ago, and a judge could interpret:

(iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds

of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine;

as implying that one must possess a magazine greater than five rounds in order to be in violation, on the grounds that the gun cannot accept a detachable mag with more than 5rds if the owner doesn't possess such a magazine. I.e. it is in sporting configuration if the possessed mags only have 5 rds.

 

I feel that is the LIKELY way it would get interpreted, in fact. But who the hell knows. Like you say, if you're going to go this route and own a 1919 in NY, you should have some provision for getting it out of the state when hi-caps are created, at least until this area is clarified. There are/were some AR thumbhole stocks produced.. if they can be made to fit the 1919, that might be a route as well. Perhaps one could even modify the factory stock/PG and fit a bar in place to turn it into a thumbhole.

 

As for the thumbhole on the S12. Yes, it should be compliant .. theoretically. But all that hinges on what NY's definition of a pistol grip is. "conspicously protrudes" is all you got, which isn't really much to go on. Except, back during the ban, the Bulgarian stocks and similar were sold on guns in NY and elsewhere, as compliant. So, you have that argument for the judge if it should ever come up. Though, technically, the rules for those stocks were put in place by ATF; since ATF no longer has a dog in this fight, NY doesn't really have to play by those rules. However, since the text of the NY ban is essentially the federal text, verbatim, a good argument can be made to the judge that the intent of NYS law was to preserve the federal statutes, and that they should therefore also preserve the ATF definitions pertaining to those statutes from that time. That would probably fly.

 

The similarity here is that all this shit hinges on "probable" interpretation by judges at some future point in time when the cases are actually brought up. For those looking to be absolutely meticulous about their legal "exposure" in NY, it would be safest to keep with the factory sporter stock.

 

It would actually be good for NY gun owners to start a petition asking legislators to amend 265 with verbiage to the affect that ATF's rulings during the '94 ban are binding. That would clear it all up, and give force of law to what people are doing all over the state anyhow.

[YOT 3,743]

It would actually be good for NY gun owners to start a petition asking legislators to amend 265 with verbiage to the affect that ATF's rulings during the '94 ban are binding. That would clear it all up, and give force of law to what people are doing all over the state anyhow.

 

There is actually proposed legislation introduce by Caroline McCatharthy to do just that, and not in a good way. She has tried every two years to have the wording changed regarding thumbhole stocks to include them in the evil features.

 

Sickness, your lawyer friend has schooled you well. I'm not a lawyer, but I have studied laws that pertain to me, in my capacity. Sometimes I forget that Peace Officers have liberties that other citizens don't. I also realize that upon retirement that all changes.

 

 

I refer to "

`(42) Pistol Grip- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip." of

 

http://thomas.loc.go...?c110:H.R.1022: Which also specifically names "Saiga" in the proposed legislation.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Yeoldetool

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I agree that a federal law and a state law require separate rulings as the body of power bringing them into being are different, But you also have to remember that the NYS assault weapon ban not just closely mirrors the original federal law, it also is retroactive to when the original federal law came into being. thats a pretty strong showing for "spirit of the law".

 

That coupled with the fact that rifles were sold during the ban as you stated earlier should be enough in any fair court of law.

[sickness 89]

I agree that a federal law and a state law require separate rulings as the body of power bringing them into being are different, But you also have to remember that the NYS assault weapon ban not just closely mirrors the original federal law, it also is retroactive to when the original federal law came into being. thats a pretty strong showing for "spirit of the law".

 

That coupled with the fact that rifles were sold during the ban as you stated earlier should be enough in any fair court of law.

 

I totally agree. That is one of the reasons I put the Bulgarian thumbhole on my S12 for NY compliance. I don't live in NY anymore, but I like to bring it with me when I return there for visits.

 

I think the arguments are strong, and it is a fairly safe bet regarding the thumbhole stock at this point, unless - apparently, McCarthy gets her way. For something so trivial, they are unlikely to put a grandfather clause in for that either.. but then, on the other hand, the trivial nature of it might be whats holding it up and preventing from getting it passed? I don't know. I couldn't understand the thinking of that lot of folks when I lived there. Now that I'm in a free state, I find it even harder to understand

 

Unfortunately I can't think of any argumentation anywhere near as solid for the 1919 situation.. so that is way out in the dark side of the gray area, I think.

[sickness 89]

I refer to "

`(42) Pistol Grip- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip." of

 

http://thomas.loc.go...?c110:H.R.1022: Which also specifically names "Saiga" in the proposed legislation.

 

Yeah, I reviewed the infamous "barrel shroud / shoulder thingy" legislation briefly awhile back. I knew the Saiga was mentioned by name there, but I didn't pick up on the new grip definition:

 

(42) Pistol Grip- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

 

Wouldn't this imply that any gun that can be held in your hands is illegal? Sheesh. This stuff just keeps getting worse. And it is cute that they ban the Tavor by name, despite the fact that it isn't even imported.

 

Its like NY and CA are in a competition to see who can shit on liberty more.

 

Edit: looking over the list of guns specifically named, I find it amusing as all hell that the M1 Carbine, and the Mini-14 are to be banned, but the M1A is not. Having the Tavor on the list when it isn't even imported is cute too.

Edited January 9, 2012 by sickness

[YOT 3,743]

Well, the good thing is that nothing has happened with that since 2007. But 67 co-sponsors? fucking really?

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Yeap, there is 2 in a store local to me also. One is a very nice bone collector camo model.

 

I don't have a good explanation for it. All of my armchair lawyer-fu tells me it should be illigal, but yet here they are en mass.

 

And theres still people out there worried about putting a thumbhole stock on a S-12 as being a "grey" zone. Funny No?

 

The 1919 has a 5rd mag, and there are no hi-caps available. That is why it is legal.

 

Eh?

 

 

Shotguns

To qualify as a SAW, a shotgun must be semiautomatic. As with semi-auto rifles, it must not have more than one “evil” feature. These “evil” features are as follows:

• A fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds
  
• A folding or telescoping stock
  
• A pistol grip
  
• The ability to accept a detachable magazine (Please note that while this is an evil feature of shotguns, it is not one for rifles)
  

 

It has a pistol grip and ability to accept a detachable mag. That's 2 "evil" features, and therefore, not legal for Joe Schmoe in NY. Mag capacity doesn't even need to come into play. Where are these exemptions you speak of? I'm retarded and can't find them.

 

 

Everything else aside..............don't count on seeing something in a NY gunstore as meaning it's legal for anyone in NY. I've seen plenty of stuff in gunstores in NY that were blatantly illegal, unless you're exempt from the AWB. A store near the NY/PA border I stopped at, I saw a guy in front of me buy two PMags. I witnessed the whole transaction. No LE credentials were shown, and from what I could tell, they customer and employee didn't know eachother, so it didn't seem to be a situation where they already knew he was LE or anything.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Look out! Legal Mumbo Jumbo Ahead!

 

 

BOLD sections added to help identify what we are talking about.

 

TITLE P--OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC SAFETY

ARTICLE 265--FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS

Section 265.00 Definitions

As used in this article and in article four hundred, the following terms shall mean and include:

1. "Machine-gun" means a weapon of any description, irrespective of size, by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, from which a number of shots or bullets may be rapidly or automatically discharged from a magazine with one continuous pull of the trigger and includes a sub-machine gun.

2. "Firearm silencer" means any instrument, attachment, weapon or appliance for causing the firing of any gun, revolver, pistol or other firearms to be silent, or intended to lessen or muffle the noise of the firing of any gun, revolver, pistol or other firearms.

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or ( a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or © a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm.

4. "Switchblade knife" means any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.

5. "Gravity knife" means any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.

5-a. "Pilum ballistic knife" means any knife which has a blade which can be projected from the handle by hand pressure applied to a button, lever, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.

5-b. "Metal knuckle knife" means a weapon that, when closed, cannot function as a set of metal knuckles, nor as a knife and when open, can function as both a set of metal knuckles as well as a knife.

6. "Dispose of" means to dispose of, give, give away, lease-loan, keep for sale, offer, offer for sale, sell, transfer and otherwise dispose of.

7. "Deface" means to remove, deface, cover, alter or destroy the manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark.

8. "Gunsmith" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of repairing, altering, assembling, manufacturing, cleaning, polishing, engraving or trueing, or who performs any mechanical operation on, any firearm, large capacity ammunition feeding device or machine-gun.

9. "Dealer in firearms" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling, keeping for sale, loaning, leasing, or in any manner disposing of, any assault weapon, large capacity ammunition feeding device, pistol or revolver.

10. "Licensing officer" means in the city of New York the police commissioner of that city; in the county of Nassau the commissioner of police of that county; in the county of Suffolk the sheriff of that county except in the towns of Babylon, Brookhaven, Huntington, Islip and Smithtown, the commissioner of police of that county; for the purposes of section 400.1 of this chapter the superintendent of state police; and elsewhere in the state a judge or justice of a court of record having his office in the county of issuance.

11. "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

13. "Cane Sword" means a cane or swagger stick having concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stilletto.

14. "Chuka stick" means any device designed primarily as a weapon, consisting of two or more lengths of a rigid material joined together by a thong, rope or chain in such a manner as to allow free movement of a portion of the device while held in the hand and capable of being rotated in such a manner as to inflict serious injury upon a person by striking or choking. These devices are also known as nunchakus and centrifugal force sticks.

14. "Antique firearm" means:

Any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver which uses fixed cartridges which are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

15. "Loaded firearm" means any firearm loaded with ammunition or any firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses a quantity of ammunition which may be used to discharge such firearm.

15-a. "Electronic dart gun" means any device designed primarily as a weapon, the purpose of which is to momentarily stun, knock out or paralyze a person by passing an electrical shock to such person by means of a dart or projectile.

15-b. "Kung Fu star" means a disc-like object with sharpened points on the circumference thereof and is designed for use primarily as a weapon to be thrown.

15-c. "Electronic stun gun" means any device designed primarily as a weapon, the purpose of which is to stun, cause mental disorientation, knock out or paralyze a person by passing a high voltage electrical shock to such person.

16. "Certified not suitable to possess a self-defense spray device, a rifle or shotgun" means that the director or physician in charge of any hospital or institution for mental illness, public or private, has certified to the superintendent of state police or to any organized police department of a county, city, town or village of this state, that a person who has been judicially adjudicated incompetent, or who has been confined to such institution for mental illness pursuant to judicial authority, is not suitable to possess a self-defense spray device, as defined in section 265.20 of this article, or a rifle or shotgun.

17. "Serious offense" means (a) any of the following offenses defined in the former penal law as in force and effect immediately prior to September first, nineteen hundred sixty-seven: illegally using, carrying or possessing a pistol or other dangerous weapon; making or possessing burglar`s instruments; buying or receiving stolen property; unlawful entry of a building; aiding escape from prison; that kind of disorderly conduct defined in subdivisions six and eight of section seven hundred twenty-two of such former penal law; violations of sections four hundred eighty-three, four hundred eighty-three-b, four hundred eighty-four-h and article one hundred six of such former penal law; that kind of criminal sexual act or rape which was designated as a misdemeanor; violation of section seventeen hundred forty-seven-d and seventeen hundred forty-seven-e of such former penal law; any violation of any provision of article thirty-three of the public health law relating to narcotic drugs which was defined as a misdemeanor by section seventeen hundred fifty-one-a of such former penal law, and any violation of any provision of article thirty-three-A of the public health law relating to depressant and stimulant drugs which was defined as a misdemeanor by section seventeen hundred forty-seven-b of such former penal law.

( any of the following offenses defined in the penal law: illegally using, carrying or possessing a pistol or other dangerous weapon; possession of burglar's tools; criminal possession of stolen property in the third degree; escape in the third degree; jostling; fraudulent accosting; that kind of loitering defined in subdivision three of section 240.35; endangering the welfare of a child; the offenses defined in article two hundred thirty-five; issuing abortional articles; permitting prostitution; promoting prostitution in the third degree; stalking in the third degree; stalking in the fourth degree; the offenses defined in article one hundred thirty; the offenses defined in article two hundred twenty.

18. "Armor piercing ammunition" means any ammunition capable of being used in pistols or revolvers containing a projectile or projectile core, or a projectile or projectile core for use in such ammunition, that is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of any of the following: tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or uranium.

19. "Duly authorized instructor" means (a) a duly commissioned officer of the United States army, navy, marine corps or coast guard, or of the national guard of the state of New York; or ( a duly qualified adult citizen of the United States who has been granted a certificate as an instructor in small arms practice issued by the United States army, navy or marine corps, or by the adjutant general of this state, or by the national rifle association of America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized under the laws of this state; or © by a person duly qualified and designated by the department of environmental conservation under paragraph d of subdivision six of section 11-0713 of the environmental conservation law as its agent in the giving of instruction and the making of certifications of qualification in responsible hunting practices.

20. “Disguised gun” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive and is designed and intended to appear to be something other than a gun.

21. "Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;

(v) a grenade launcher; or

( a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or

© a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:

(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

(iv) a semiautomatic weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm; or

(d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames of receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as:

(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);

(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

(iii) Baretta AR70 (SC-70);

(iv) Colt AR-15;

(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12;

(vii) Steyr AUG;

(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

(e) provided, however, that such term does not include:

(i) any rifle, shotgun or pistol that (A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, slide action; ( has been rendered permanently inoperable; or © is an antique firearm as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(16);

(ii) a semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that bolds more than five rounds of ammunition;

(iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine;

(iv) a rifle, shotgun or pistol, of a replica or a duplicate thereof, specified in Appendix A to section 922 of 18 U.S.C. as such weapon was manufactured on October first, nineteen hundred ninety-three. The mere fact that a weapon is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that such weapon is an assault weapon; or

(v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September fourteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four.

23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

 

BOLD sections added to help identify what we are talking about.

 

There she is in all of her ugly entirety.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Ah, thank you for making it easy for me, NB! Well this is an odd situation. It definitely seems to be legal then, with that exemption.

 

Now the million dollar question that was already brought up........................what happens when higher cap mags come out? Because there is absolutely no doubt that, at minimum, 10 round mags will be available for this thing in the near future. Really curious to see how that goes.

[sickness 89]

Now the million dollar question that was already brought up........................what happens when higher cap mags come out? Because there is absolutely no doubt that, at minimum, 10 round mags will be available for this thing in the near future. Really curious to see how that goes.

 

Well, I can tell you how it will go: it will be a grey area. When aftermarket mags come out NY gun stores will probably stop stocking them out of caution, but even if they keep stocking them and selling them it will be a grey area until someone tests the law.

 

But for me, I have very little interest in this gun at the $700 or so price point anyhow. If it actually had parts commonality with the AR out of the box for stocks, PGs and foreends and shit for $700.. OK, I'd be on board. But not as is. To me, it seems like a whole lot of technical and legal trouble, starts off at a high price point already, and for what? Just to be different and look like an AR?

 

To each their own. It may be a good investment piece in NY while you can get them.. if you can get them set up with a thumbhole. Should be a small niche market of NYers who would pay through the nose for a NY legal Akdal after they are more widely known and the hi-cap mags come out. Might not be a big enough market for the likes of Tromix to bother with.. so its conceivable you could turn a $700 gun and a few $100 in parts into a $2500 gun for guys that must have an AR-style shotgun.

[Foxtrot Oscar 37]

Its like NY and CA are in a competition to see who can shit on liberty more.

 

this is the best

[thebobrusso 27]

i wonder whats a better investment a akdal or a saiga 12 for a NY resident

[rnemhrd 165]

I wonder if this would fly in NY. Thats a rather large modded mag he has there in that blinged out 1919.

I like it, but something tells me not in NY. Edited October 16, 2012 by rnemhrd

[dcgregorya 5]

Now the million dollar question that was already brought up........................what happens when higher cap mags come out? Because there is absolutely no doubt that, at minimum, 10 round mags will be available for this thing in the near future. Really curious to see how that goes.

 

Well, I can tell you how it will go: it will be a grey area. When aftermarket mags come out NY gun stores will probably stop stocking them out of caution, but even if they keep stocking them and selling them it will be a grey area until someone tests the law.

 

But for me, I have very little interest in this gun at the $700 or so price point anyhow. If it actually had parts commonality with the AR out of the box for stocks, PGs and foreends and shit for $700.. OK, I'd be on board. But not as is. To me, it seems like a whole lot of technical and legal trouble, starts off at a high price point already, and for what? Just to be different and look like an AR?

 

To each their own. It may be a good investment piece in NY while you can get them.. if you can get them set up with a thumbhole. Should be a small niche market of NYers who would pay through the nose for a NY legal Akdal after they are more widely known and the hi-cap mags come out. Might not be a big enough market for the likes of Tromix to bother with.. so its conceivable you could turn a $700 gun and a few $100 in parts into a $2500 gun for guys that must have an AR-style shotgun.

 

How would it be gray? In my opinion it's gray now and will be black and white illegal then. I doubt that the argument that "there aren't any commercial magazines available for sale" would hold up - considering there's nothing that inherently prevents the gun from accepting larger magazines were someone to build one.