Themajickman 8 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I'm asking this question because I've read in various forums that shotshell's are being deformed after being loaded in magazines for as little as a few days. In a home defense situation a loaded weapon should be ready for action at a moments notice. In other words, load it and put it away until needed. If Saiga shotguns do actually have this problem, then You would either have to load it at a moments notice or empty and reloaded every day. And in my opinion, that would just not be practical. Am I right, is this a serious problem or am I just overreacting here? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Just store with the bolt locked open, use the factory BHO or cut the slot in the safety selector. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 it is a problem if the bolt is not re profiled and polished. i keep a full stick mag locked in , no problem. a drum however does not have the extra space and would require leaving one round out. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 having the work done by a professional , or doing it yourself cures the problem. with the added benefit that everything runs so much smoother. i did the work myself. all the information is here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong (preferrably with some evidence), but a polished and reprofiled bolt won't do anything to keep shells from deforming... it only aids in reducing friction. I keep slugs for HD, anyway... it negates the problem as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Remington 870 with one already chambered is my first choice (or the pump of your choice). As much as anything, if you want to call it home defense, you want something quick and ready to use-time may not be your friend. I love my S12, but the thought of grabbing it in the dark of the night and having to chamber it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy (deformed shell or not). Edited January 9, 2012 by 6500rpm 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just store with the bolt locked open, use the factory BHO or cut the slot in the safety selector. +1 on notching the safety. You lock the charging handle into the safety lever, and then when something goes bump in the night you just grab the gun and throw the safety and you're chambered and ready to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kodaline 178 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 And hope that the shear forces imparted on the safety lever's pin from the force of the bolt spring pushing against it for 5 years haven't caused any stress fractures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 It's not ideal but far from bad. I never got deformed shells in my stock saiga using factory mags. After it was converted, all magazines worked fine with no deformations. A pump action shotgun is a better choice in general, but to each is own. Some use a pump, a pistol, a claymore, pepper spray... Whatever you do best with! And hope that the shear forces imparted on the safety lever's pin from the force of the bolt spring pushing against it for 5 years haven't caused any stress fractures. i haven't seen that happen before. has it happened to you? An arsenal grade selector would be a difficult piece of gear to wear out or break. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'd also be interested to know of any actual data on the subject. Stress fractures are typically caused by repeated stress-relief cycles such as those endured during switching the safety on and off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffian72 548 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Twice I've had perps give up by short cycling the pump action. Saiga is locked open. Unless knock out gas is used, wont matter then anyway, the 2 dogs in the house and 3 outside will more than notify me. Glock is under the pillow. On road/motel. Door jam alarm. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong (preferrably with some evidence), but a polished and reprofiled bolt won't do anything to keep shells from deforming... it only aids in reducing friction. I keep slugs for HD, anyway... it negates the problem as well. Cobra's reworked bolt has a cut out to alleviate shell deformation. I haven't looked, but would assume Pauly's does too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Just store with the bolt locked open, use the factory BHO or cut the slot in the safety selector. +1 on notching the safety. You lock the charging handle into the safety lever, and then when something goes bump in the night you just grab the gun and throw the safety and you're chambered and ready to go. Just store with the bolt locked open, use the factory BHO or cut the slot in the safety selector. +1 on notching the safety. You lock the charging handle into the safety lever, and then when something goes bump in the night you just grab the gun and throw the safety and you're chambered and ready to go. How is this any better than using the BHO made for this purpose. It is still one clean, yet deliberate motion and you are good to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I used to keep my S12 with a factory 5rd mag locked, bolt back with BHO and safety on. I also have the safety lever notched, but seldom used it. Tap the charging handle releasing the bolt, tap the safety and its GtG. No worries about deformed shells. .................................................... My GoTo HD shottie is now a Mossy 500. 5+1 in the chamber, thumb the safety off and its GtG. No worries about deformed shells. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would also add that most ammo suitable to HD is tougher and less likely to deform. I keep #4 Buck Remmington in both of mine. There is a tough shell and a shotcup reinforcing the whole way, and the smaller pellets leave less gaps compared to 00B, so it is noticibly firmer. I doubt those will ever deform. I have been leaving the one in the safe loaded on a close bolt fpr a while and have yet to see any deformation. I would also comment that comparing the remmington OOB to winchester super x 00B the remmington has a better feeling hull. Winchester is thinner, and a bit harder/ more brittle feeling. I suspect that they would be more vulnerable. Federal and Hornady have very good feeling hulls. The only shells I have seen deformation on were Winchester bulk on a hot day and some S&B 00B that I cycled a bunch getting the hang of rock'n'lock when I was new to the gun. Those have no shot cup and tough but soft clear hulls. The roll crimp on the 3" is also a little prone to get bent against the bolt as the mag is rocked into place. Even the badly mangled ones cycled fine when I took them to the range though. There used to be threads about this issue all the time and they kind of disappeared the last few years. There's a reason. It is a problem that people either didn't have at all or solved easily by either locking the bolt back, profiling the bolt, or not inserting the mag. Almost everyone will agree that a gun that runs at the range will run if left on the right gas setting with the bolt back and one of the following. AGP, 10 or 8 shot SGM, IZZY 8/5, MD 20, Promag 12 rd drum. You are worried about a problem that is mostly discussed by people who don't own a saiga. Here's a challenge. Store your Saiga 12 with a full mag of any HD ammo for 3 months near a heat source (not dangerously so). Keep the bolt back on the BHO with the safety wherever makes you happy. If any of the shells in your magazine deform, I'll send you $20. If your spring fails, I'll give you $25. In return, you will go on the AR forum or wherever you heard about this and respond to the threads about the issue with your results. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sian 14 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 slug on top=no problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
siminov 164 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 10rd mag loaded with 8 rds of alternating 2 3/4" remington 7/8oz slugs and remington express 00buck against a closed bolt for about 3 weeks. Bolt was lightly sanded and polished but not reprofiled. Only the tip was deformed, ran calipers down the rest of the shell and it was fine. I chambered the round with no problems (not to say that the potential for it to hang up isn't there. I normally leave the bolt open and I don't know why it was closed but saw the results and figured I'd post em. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adjc 171 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 one of these is all you need for HD....speaks for itself. have an S12 also but for reliabilty this is the way to go IMHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
siminov 164 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 one of these is all you need for HD....speaks for itself. have an S12 also but for reliabilty this is the way to go IMHO. agreed, pumps or doubles, reliable as a revolver. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have had more jams with pumps than I ever have with a properly working s-12. Many of them have to be held upright and pumped with an even smooth stroke to avoid having the shell become misaligned while transitioning from the tube to the barrel. It's one of the reasons a box fed shotgun appealed to me so strongly. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I agree completely. I've heard a lot about the reliability of pumps but try running one under extreme stress in critical situations and you may find yourself shortstroking it or yanking it off target during reloading and then taking crucial time that may not be available to get back on target. Nothing is foolproof of course but if you are serious about using a particular weapon as your primary defensive one then it's up to you to make sure its up to the task before hand. Otherwise it's operator error. Anything mechanical can screw up, but I will (and do) trust my life to my S12. I would much rather just pull the trigger as many times as needed than to put in the requisite time and training to make a pump gun work as quickly or accurately. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Regardless of the reasons why, if you do have deformed shells then they are not reliable, especially for home defense. I recall once having four shells that had deformed from me loading them on a closed bolt. I had rotated each of the shells out after about two weeks, and each had deformed. Tried running them through a 5 round mag just out of curiosity. Every one of the deformed shells was a FTE for me, essentially turning my S12 into a single shot weapon. Now I keep two loaded 10 round mags next to the buttstock of my S12. I am confident of my ability to load them on a closed bolt under stress and quickly chamber a round. By the time any intruder could possibly reach me I'm locked and loaded and ready to rock... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 when I have mine out I keep it with 10 rounds of 3" 15 pellet 00 buck loaded, with the bolt locked to the rear. My first S-12 has a slot in the safety cut so the safety can go on with the bolt to the rear, and my second one has a polish tantal safety adapted, so it can also be on safe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have a feeling that the shell deformation thing is something made up by someone who is jealous because they don't own an S12 yet. Shell deformation has never been a factor in any jam I've had in an S12. HD rounds usually have enough pressure to cycle the action properly. Other than that, the only thing that is stopping you is a round getting jammed on a feed lip, but you can even solve that by opening up the approriate feed lip on the inside in a conical manner like a funnel where it'll ride the feed lip straight in to be chambered. I did that to mine, solved it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
siminov 164 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have a feeling that the shell deformation thing is something made up by someone who is jealous because they don't own an S12 yet. Shell deformation has never been a factor in any jam I've had in an S12. HD rounds usually have enough pressure to cycle the action properly. Other than that, the only thing that is stopping you is a round getting jammed on a feed lip, but you can even solve that by opening up the approriate feed lip on the inside in a conical manner like a funnel where it'll ride the feed lip straight in to be chambered. I did that to mine, solved it. Damn! You got me! I knew I wouldn't fool everyone with that pic (it's actually a photoshop of my dog). I just didn't think anyone would catch on so quickly. Guess I'd have to get up pretty early in the afternoon to slip one by you. Next time I'll do a better job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 A pump shotgun is a perfectly fine HD weapon but it is not 100% reliable as is commonly thought and has it's limitations in certain situations. One on one with a single intruder you might be OK. But how about more than one, and all are armed? Now you've really got your hands full with a pump, whereas with a semi-auto you still have your hands full which is precisely why you need the advantage of being able to get a round on each target ASAP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 So we have one saying deformed shells produced FTEs and another saying they never cause a stoppage. If one person on this forum has had a failure due to this, it is enough for me to believe it can happen to anyone's which is a No-Go for HD. Do what you have to do to prevent deformed shells whether locking the bolt to the rear or inserting the mag when needed so that concern is out of the equation. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) well said. I have yet to see any firearm that cannot fail. I have hand fed mangled shells. While they may have been munched badly enough to be hard to insert, they ejected fine. My bottom line is that a Saiga you have personally tested with the ammo you intend to use that runs it without fail is good for HD. I recommend leaving the bolt locked open with an inserted full mag. Saigas don't give surprises. Either you have the problem all the time and know you need to fix it, or it is reliable. Most of the fixes are simple if you do have problems. You either have a gun that always works or never works. For HD you want a gun that always works. Some firearms sometimes work. Those are not appropriate for HD. Edited February 7, 2012 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have a feeling that the shell deformation thing is something made up by someone who is jealous because they don't own an S12 yet. Shell deformation has never been a factor in any jam I've had in an S12. HD rounds usually have enough pressure to cycle the action properly. Other than that, the only thing that is stopping you is a round getting jammed on a feed lip, but you can even solve that by opening up the approriate feed lip on the inside in a conical manner like a funnel where it'll ride the feed lip straight in to be chambered. I did that to mine, solved it. Damn! You got me! I knew I wouldn't fool everyone with that pic (it's actually a photoshop of my dog). I just didn't think anyone would catch on so quickly. Guess I'd have to get up pretty early in the afternoon to slip one by you. Next time I'll do a better job. I believe you, but there's an easy hit or miss fix for those deformed shells. All you need is a propane torch and a glove. Just carefully heat the end that's distorted and then use the gloved hand to insert it in the chamber where it will cool, hopefully in a usable condition if all goes well. Warning! Do NOT heat the brass end and do NOT use too much heat! How do you know how much heat is too much? Believe me, you'll know once it reaches that point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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