DontTaseMeBro 2 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I recently ordered several magazines for the Saiga 12 and thought a review of the latest generations would prove benefitial. The focus will be on craftsmanship and design. In this review I will cover: 10 round SGM Tactical 10 round ProMag 10 round AGP Arms SGM Tactical (10 rounds) The Good: The follower is solid and the spring was in great shape upon initial inspection--not a given as we will see. The Bad: This thing is ugly. Not only is the design bland, but it's marked up from being removed from the mold and lacked any finishing touches (no deburring). The compression spring struggles under load, so don't expect to pack a full mag of slugs. Conclusion: The lack of attention to detail combined with the lack on any steel reinforcement makes this a subpar value compared to peers. AGP Arms (10 rounds) The Good: A steel reinforcement at the lip gets this magazine off to a good start. The bar is further raised with some surface texture for improved handling, date of manufacture, and a ribed based plate. The Bad: The compression spring was buckled upon initial inspection (I will be contacting AGP Arms for a replacement). The follower demonstrates some flexing, screws add to the weight and no deburring. Conclusion: The inclusion of steel reinforcement is a welcomed touch, but the quality of the compression spring is questionable. Pending a response from AGP Arms I recommend avoiding this one. ProMag (10 rounds) The Good: Good surface texture, a steel reinforced lip, modern design, and the spring is acceptable. A nice touch is the truly toolless base plate release. Smooth action. The Bad: The follower is weak and subject to flexing under load. A wide base plate and noticable weight don't make for an easy carry. No deburring. Conclusion: If you can't get factory mags or want the higher capacity, this is the solid choice. Final Thoughts With SGM Tactical failing to include steel reinforcement and going with an underpowered spring, it's not a reliable option. AGP Arms has a solid design, but quality control could be a problem if my compression spring buckling is not an isolated incident. For now, ProMag is the best choice for > 8 rounds in a box magazine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DontTaseMeBro 2 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 AGP Arms Response: "The magazine body holds the spring strait in operation. That will not give you any problems." This is not the reaction I expected and is very disappointing. It demonstrates a lack of pride in the product and care for the customer. A damaged spring does not perform to the same level as a spec spring and is at great risk of feed problems and catastrophic failure. I have urged AGP Arms to reconsider, but have yet to receive a follow up response. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xICEMANx 13 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that AGP mags are the preffered mag of choice around here. I have two and they function flawlessly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DontTaseMeBro 2 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 AGP Arms Response: "The magazine body holds the spring strait in operation. That will not give you any problems." This is not the reaction I expected and is very disappointing. It demonstrates a lack of pride in the product and care for the customer. A damaged spring does not perform to the same level as a spec spring and is at great risk of feed problems and catastrophic failure. I have urged AGP Arms to reconsider, but have yet to receive a follow up response. ** UPDATE ** Response from AGP: "Nothing is damaged on that spring. If you think it's going to make a difference you could gently twist it with your hands and make it lay flat in less than a minute. I assure you the bending and contortions the spring does inside the magazine body every time you load it, are much greater than that. It is a spring, and bending is what they do." Obviously, AGP cares little about customer experience. A definite AVOID. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that AGP mags are the preffered mag of choice around here. I have two and they function flawlessly. True or not, my review of the parts suggests ProMag has the best magazine. The AGP customer service is more about deflection then resolution. YMMV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 How did the mags run in your gun? Any problems with any of them? I've run some SGM 2, 8 and 12s without problems. I'm just curious as to your experience shooting with them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DontTaseMeBro 2 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 How did the mags run in your gun? Any problems with any of them? I've run some SGM 2, 8 and 12s without problems. I'm just curious as to your experience shooting with them. I haven't owned them long enough to comment on performance other then to note the SGM mag doesn't work well with heavy loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FORKLIFT352 63 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 My first 2 promags sucked and had to mod.My next 4 seem more in spec. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xICEMANx 13 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 How did the mags run in your gun? Any problems with any of them? I've run some SGM 2, 8 and 12s without problems. I'm just curious as to your experience shooting with them. I haven't owned them long enough to comment on performance other then to note the SGM mag doesn't work well with heavy loads. So your basing your review without any range time? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Springs can twist like that. The mag body does guide them, as does the little spring guide at the bottom. A bad spring will catch on itself, having hard and soft spots throughout the coils (you'll find these on no name AR-15 mags). The AGP spring looks fine to me. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DontTaseMeBro 2 Posted January 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 How did the mags run in your gun? Any problems with any of them? I've run some SGM 2, 8 and 12s without problems. I'm just curious as to your experience shooting with them. I haven't owned them long enough to comment on performance other then to note the SGM mag doesn't work well with heavy loads. So your basing your review without any range time? To quote myself: "The focus will be on craftsmanship and design." Please read the thread before posting. Springs can twist like that. The mag body does guide them, as does the little spring guide at the bottom. A bad spring will catch on itself, having hard and soft spots throughout the coils (you'll find these on no name AR-15 mags). That may be the case (though I would not suggest trusting a spring in that shape), but the AGP response was more about deflection then anything else. Their response was enough for me to know who to avoid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper14.5 84 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 agp told you the truth, it doesn't matter. they weren't deflecting anything, you were asking them to replace somthing that had nothing wrong with it. To tell people to avoid them when most people find their products to be more reliable than promags in a magazine review with no range time is wrong. What if somone went with what you say, bought promags, and had reliabilty problems, and it turns out they wasted their money? If it were me id be pissed. you can't write a review without range testing, and you can't be mad at a company for telling you the truth. 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,074 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) I have five older Surefire/SGM mags, DOM '09. No such defects as you show, any injection point burrs got knocked down with a file sandpaper. And I could care less if they look snazzy or not, I like the simple ribbed design. I've ran 10s & 12s for a couple of years, never had a problem with feeding heavy 3" magnums/slugs from either. Springs are still strong 2.25 years later. Springs were the same in the 12s as in the 10s, and they are definitely not weak. Late last year I cut the 12s down to 10s, no differences in spring strength. As for lack of steel reinforcement, I've seen a few people mention shearing a locking lip in extremely cold weather and/or under recoil with a heavy 12rd mag. Cold weather does make polymers brittle, and the 12s are long and haeavy... Shit happens. I live in a mild climate, so I've not had the chance to experience severe cold, and I abused the 12s for over two years with no problems. Who knows why some have failed, defects? Would steel reinforcements have made a difference? More than likely. Are they combat mags? No. You want combat/SHTF, bet your life mags, buy factory fives & eights. Would I bet my life on my Surefires? Yes, my go to mag for planned home/self defense was a factory five, with a Surefire 10rd as a reload. Short story... They've ran flawlessly, every stoppage I've ever had, I've attributed to fouling in the gas chamber/puck, increasing the gas has always solved the problem. They haven't broken/malfunctioned, they've fed everything I've put in them... Worth every penny. This is based on two plus years of actual use, approx 4300 rounds of high brass & slugs. Perhaps they've changed, perhaps not. ......................................................... AGPs are highly regarded by many here, much more well regarded than Promag. Promags are not very well regarded, it seems to be a love'em or hate'em. They are well known to have issues, luckily the issues usually have fixes, but who wants deal with issues out of the box? ......................................................... For a couple of years I've been watching what people with actual range time/personal experience have to say about the various box mags. Want to be taken a little more seriously, and not just be somebody unboxing a few mags and making judgement on simple examination. Make a real in-depth review, based on actual use and with real numbers. Take two or three of each to the range, and give each of them a major workout with various loads, preferably in more than one S12. Post some actual measurements of each manufacturer's spring's strength, length, number of coils, material and such. Otherwise, without some sort of background to give your opinions a leg to stand on, your making ass'umptions. Edited January 24, 2012 by ChileRelleno 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
surfmaster 5 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Craftsmanship and design are nice attributes but the real test is whether or not they work in real life. Please test fire at least 100 rounds per magazine and then report back with your findings. Skipping this step is like reviewing a car without even driving it. It just isn't helpful enough for the end user. Thanks. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xICEMANx 13 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 I have five older Surefire/SGM mags, DOM '09. No such defects as you show, any injection point burrs got knocked down with a file sandpaper. And I could care less if they look snazzy or not, I like the simple ribbed design. I've ran 10s & 12s for a couple of years, never had a problem with feeding heavy 3" magnums/slugs from either. Springs are still strong 2.25 years later. Springs were the same in the 12s as in the 10s, and they are definitely not weak. Late last year I cut the 12s down to 10s, no differences in spring strength. As for lack of steel reinforcement, I've seen a few people mention shearing a locking lip in extremely cold weather and/or under recoil with a heavy 12rd mag. Cold weather does make polymers brittle, and the 12s are long and haeavy... Shit happens. I live in a mild climate, so I've not had the chance to experience severe cold, and I abused the 12s for over two years with no problems. Who knows why some have failed, defects? Would steel reinforcements have made a difference? More than likely. Are they combat mags? No. You want combat/SHTF, bet your life mags, buy factory fives & eights. Would I bet my life on my Surefires? Yes, my go to mag for planned home/self defense was a factory five, with a Surefire 10rd as a reload. Short story... They've ran flawlessly, every stoppage I've ever had, I've attributed to fouling in the gas chamber/puck, increasing the gas has always solved the problem. They haven't broken/malfunctioned, they've fed everything I've put in them... Worth every penny. This is based on two plus years of actual use, approx 4300 rounds of high brass & slugs. Perhaps they've changed, perhaps not. ......................................................... AGPs are highly regarded by many here, much more well regarded than Promag. Promags are not very well regarded, it seems to be a love'em or hate'em. They are well known to have issues, luckily the issues usually have fixes, but who wants deal with issues out of the box? ......................................................... For a couple of years I've been watching what people with actual range time/personal experience have to say about the various box mags. Want to be taken a little more seriously, and not just be somebody unboxing a few mags and making judgement on simple examination. Make a real in-depth review, based on actual use and with real numbers. Take two or three of each to the range, and give each of them a major workout with various loads, preferably in more than one S12. Post some actual measurements of each manufacturer's spring's strength, length, number of coils, material and such. Otherwise, without some sort of background to give your opinions a leg to stand on, your making ass'umptions. Couldn't have said it better myself! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robfromga 39 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 I've got 2 12 and 3 10 round surefires, they all fit and function fine. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DontTaseMeBro 2 Posted January 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 I have five older Surefire/SGM mags, DOM '09. No such defects as you show, any injection point burrs got knocked down with a file sandpaper. And I could care less if they look snazzy or not, I like the simple ribbed design. I've ran 10s & 12s for a couple of years, never had a problem with feeding heavy 3" magnums/slugs from either. Springs are still strong 2.25 years later. Springs were the same in the 12s as in the 10s, and they are definitely not weak. Late last year I cut the 12s down to 10s, no differences in spring strength. As for lack of steel reinforcement, I've seen a few people mention shearing a locking lip in extremely cold weather and/or under recoil with a heavy 12rd mag. Cold weather does make polymers brittle, and the 12s are long and haeavy... Shit happens. I live in a mild climate, so I've not had the chance to experience severe cold, and I abused the 12s for over two years with no problems. Who knows why some have failed, defects? Would steel reinforcements have made a difference? More than likely. Are they combat mags? No. You want combat/SHTF, bet your life mags, buy factory fives & eights. Would I bet my life on my Surefires? Yes, my go to mag for planned home/self defense was a factory five, with a Surefire 10rd as a reload. Short story... They've ran flawlessly, every stoppage I've ever had, I've attributed to fouling in the gas chamber/puck, increasing the gas has always solved the problem. They haven't broken/malfunctioned, they've fed everything I've put in them... Worth every penny. This is based on two plus years of actual use, approx 4300 rounds of high brass & slugs. Perhaps they've changed, perhaps not. ......................................................... AGPs are highly regarded by many here, much more well regarded than Promag. Promags are not very well regarded, it seems to be a love'em or hate'em. They are well known to have issues, luckily the issues usually have fixes, but who wants deal with issues out of the box? ......................................................... For a couple of years I've been watching what people with actual range time/personal experience have to say about the various box mags. Want to be taken a little more seriously, and not just be somebody unboxing a few mags and making judgement on simple examination. Make a real in-depth review, based on actual use and with real numbers. Take two or three of each to the range, and give each of them a major workout with various loads, preferably in more than one S12. Post some actual measurements of each manufacturer's spring's strength, length, number of coils, material and such. Otherwise, without some sort of background to give your opinions a leg to stand on, your making ass'umptions. As stated, YMMV. Don't like my review? No problem, write your own. I stand by my observations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robfromga 39 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Butt hurt much? It's that your "review " flies in the face of what pretty much everyone else has come to find. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 None of the mats un your "review" have steal reinforcements. Two have steal feed lips. Those feedlips are known to pop off when dropped. That I why you will see a lot of 3 gunners run the SGM mags. The only S12 mags with steal reinforcements are factory mags and MDA drums. The reinforcements are inside the mags walls, and for the most part, hidden from view. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tommygunner 13 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 I have 2 10 round AGP 2nd gen mags. They are around 3 years old and have had hundreds of shells thru them. They work great with no FTF problems. The spring looks exactly like the one in the pic. What is wrong with it????? I dont understand how someone can review and a bunch of mags without taking them out and putting and putting them to the test on the range. It aint about how they look it is about how they work. If i cared about how something looks I sure would not own a Saiga Sorry but this review sucks! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bcrider 68 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Hey guys. My my review is going to consist of drinking 12 beers and throwing all my mags and drums against the wall and seeing which ones break the least to determine which brand functions the best in my gun. Results posted soon. 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Well you just go ahead and avoid AGP, that will ensure that there are always some in stock when I get ready to buy more high-quality mags... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gagtoe 5 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Springs can twist like that. The mag body does guide them, as does the little spring guide at the bottom. A bad spring will catch on itself, having hard and soft spots throughout the coils (you'll find these on no name AR-15 mags). The AGP spring looks fine to me. Completely agree, the OP is pointless, I want my click back. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwiztidKlownzTX 76 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sounds like TS is someone that likes having guns to show off more than actually getting out and shooting them... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hey guys. My my review is going to consist of drinking 12 beers and throwing all my mags and drums against the wall and seeing which ones break the least to determine which brand functions the best in my gun. Results posted soon. Another incomplete review! What kind of beer? How fast will you drink it? Concrete or sheetrock wall? Inquiring minds want to know. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Less time looking.... more time shooting. That is what mags are all about, right? Want a work of art? Buy an MD-20 or a Russian 8 rounder.... I'm about to finish a build that will use exclusively SGM mags. I will post a review.... after I raise hell with it 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hey guys. My my review is going to consist of drinking 12 beers and throwing all my mags and drums against the wall and seeing which ones break the least to determine which brand functions the best in my gun. Results posted soon. Can I come over and "help" with the review? You buy the beer and I'll bring enough drums and sticks to keep us busy while we drink it. Hey guys. My my review is going to consist of drinking 12 beers and throwing all my mags and drums against the wall and seeing which ones break the least to determine which brand functions the best in my gun. Results posted soon. Another incomplete review! What kind of beer? How fast will you drink it? Concrete or sheetrock wall? Inquiring minds want to know. Of course he would "shotgun" the beer.... Butt hurt much? It's that your "review " farts in the face of what pretty much everyone else has come to find. I had too.... I have five older Surefire/SGM mags, DOM '09. No such defects as you show, any injection point burrs got knocked down with a file sandpaper. And I could care less if they look snazzy or not, I like the simple ribbed design. I've ran 10s & 12s for a couple of years, never had a problem with feeding heavy 3" magnums/slugs from either. Springs are still strong 2.25 years later. Springs were the same in the 12s as in the 10s, and they are definitely not weak. Late last year I cut the 12s down to 10s, no differences in spring strength. As for lack of steel reinforcement, I've seen a few people mention shearing a locking lip in extremely cold weather and/or under recoil with a heavy 12rd mag. Cold weather does make polymers brittle, and the 12s are long and haeavy... Shit happens. I live in a mild climate, so I've not had the chance to experience severe cold, and I abused the 12s for over two years with no problems. Who knows why some have failed, defects? Would steel reinforcements have made a difference? More than likely. Are they combat mags? No. You want combat/SHTF, bet your life mags, buy factory fives & eights. Would I bet my life on my Surefires? Yes, my go to mag for planned home/self defense was a factory five, with a Surefire 10rd as a reload. Short story... They've ran flawlessly, every stoppage I've ever had, I've attributed to fouling in the gas chamber/puck, increasing the gas has always solved the problem. They haven't broken/malfunctioned, they've fed everything I've put in them... Worth every penny. This is based on two plus years of actual use, approx 4300 rounds of high brass & slugs. Perhaps they've changed, perhaps not. ......................................................... AGPs are highly regarded by many here, much more well regarded than Promag. Promags are not very well regarded, it seems to be a love'em or hate'em. They are well known to have issues, luckily the issues usually have fixes, but who wants deal with issues out of the box? ......................................................... For a couple of years I've been watching what people with actual range time/personal experience have to say about the various box mags. Want to be taken a little more seriously, and not just be somebody unboxing a few mags and making judgement on simple examination. Make a real in-depth review, based on actual use and with real numbers. Take two or three of each to the range, and give each of them a major workout with various loads, preferably in more than one S12. Post some actual measurements of each manufacturer's spring's strength, length, number of coils, material and such. Otherwise, without some sort of background to give your opinions a leg to stand on, your making ass'umptions. As stated, YMMV. Don't like my review? No problem, write your own. I stand by my observations. Key word in this excellent review.... "observations" Go raise hell with your weapon for 100 rounds with each mag. Clean the gas block after each test. Document the number of failures, which round in the mag it was, and what type of failure it was. Post the results and tell us how much you like that ProMag. Sometimes reliability isn't pretty.... agp told you the truth, it doesn't matter. they weren't deflecting anything, you were asking them to replace somthing that had nothing wrong with it. To tell people to avoid them when most people find their products to be more reliable than promags in a magazine review with no range time is wrong. What if somone went with what you say, bought promags, and had reliabilty problems, and it turns out they wasted their money? If it were me id be pissed. you can't write a review without range testing, and you can't be mad at a company for telling you the truth. RRight on, right on, right on..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Don't review any M1911's anytime soon, you might decide the recoil spring is buckled and unreliable therefore rendering the US military's standard sidearm from before WW1 up until Desert Storm is a faulty, failure prone design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tommygunner 13 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) My review Of my AKM 47 Upon rcieving my weapon I inspected it . It was obiously a cheaply made gun , Fit and finish were of very poor quality. Everything was loose and sloppy. When feild stripped it literaly fell apart in my hands. The parts were rough, burred and had machine marks all over them. The gun had a loose and sloppy feel of inferrior quality. Even tho I havent put a round down range with my AK. I would not recomend anyone take this poory constructed weapon into battle. Edited January 25, 2012 by tommygunner 10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 I have 2 12 round SGM, 2 10 round SGM, 3 5 round Keepshoothing, and 1 5 round factory. All of my mags work just fine. SGM 12's were my first mag purchase for my S-12 and they worked fine. I like the look even though that matters the absolute least compared to reliability. There was a short time where I was getting hang ups in the 12 rounders but that worked itself out after some use. I had no desire to purchase any other magazines as these are enough for me. If i do, i'll likely buy SGM. I'm not saying they are better than AGP but that they work for me and I'm satisfied with them. If you're going to post a review, do more than just look at the products. And... don't bitch when you don't like the replies that you get. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I have 2 12 round SGM, 2 10 round SGM, 3 5 round Keepshoothing, and 1 5 round factory. All of my mags work just fine. SGM 12's were my first mag purchase for my S-12 and they worked fine. I like the look even though that matters the absolute least compared to reliability. There was a short time where I was getting hang ups in the 12 rounders but that worked itself out after some use. I had no desire to purchase any other magazines as these are enough for me. If i do, i'll likely buy SGM. I'm not saying they are better than AGP but that they work for me and I'm satisfied with them. If you're going to post a review, do more than just look at the products. And... don't bitch when you don't like the replies that you get. Real talk! It's like going to a car lot and choosing which car would be best for you without even taking a test drive... Geez, what is it with the influx of know-it-all loud-mouthed new guys who really don't know much at all here recently? Edited January 26, 2012 by Caged 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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