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I got in an argument with a friend and fellow AK enthusiast the other day about a project he is planning and I was hoping someone could clear things up. He wants to cut his 16" barrel down an inch or so and permanently weld on a muzzle device. Obviously he is legal before and after the project. My concern is what about DURING the project. I told him he should probably seek a licensed gunsmith to do something like that, not because of his technical skills which I'm sure are up to the task, but because the ATF are not nice people and quite anal retentive. This very well could be one of those "what happens behind closed doors" sorts of situations but who's to say? Thoughts? Feelings? Corrections? Legal advice?

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Only an attorney can give legal advice. There are a few who are members of the forum, but you probably won't hear from them on this issue.

 

Most of the licensed gunsmiths on the forum will advise you to take the project to a licensed SOT gunsmith and have the work done lawfully.

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so as long as the gun is apart it is ok then re asembled. do you have to remove the barel from the reciever

 

Man, let me stop you right there. This shit is getting waaay out of hand. If you take a gun apart and just put an auto sear in a receiver separated from the barrel (unless you are properly licensed), you just made an illegal machine gun.

 

Pull a shotgun apart and cut the barrel below 18" without a license or a tax stamp, and you just made an illegal SBS.

 

This isn't rocket science, and you don't change nature or intent of the law by defying it, rationalizing it, or ignoring it.

 

Anyone, who without a requisite SOT or appropriate tax stamp pulls a gun apart (or doesn't pull a gun apart - it makes no difference) and does illegal NFA mods to it - just outright shit to close to the house and tracked it in.

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While the gun will be illegal during the brief period between cutting the barrel, & attaching the muzzle device, does anyone think the ATF can time their raid so perfectly that they will kick the door in during this 10 minute space of time? Once the muzzle device is permanently attached, the gun will again be legal. While I would never recommend anything illegal on an open forum, I personally wouldn't worry about it. But that's just my opinion, NOT advice. Afterall, the barrel was removed from the gun when the work was done, right? GARY N4KVE

Edited by N4KVE
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so as long as the gun is apart it is ok then re asembled. do you have to remove the barel from the reciever

 

Man, let me stop you right there. This shit is getting waaay out of hand. If you take a gun apart and just put an auto sear in a receiver separated from the barrel (unless you are properly licensed), you just made an illegal machine gun.

 

Pull a shotgun apart and cut the barrel below 18" without a license or a tax stamp, and you just made an illegal SBS.

 

This isn't rocket science, and you don't change nature or intent of the law by defying it, rationalizing it, or ignoring it.

 

Anyone, who without a requisite SOT or appropriate tax stamp pulls a gun apart (or doesn't pull a gun apart - it makes no difference) and does illegal NFA mods to it - just outright shit to close to the house and tracked it in.

 

the difference is the barrel is not considered the gun, the receiver is, if that were the case, any pipes laying around less than 18" would be unregistered sbs

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While the gun will be illegal during the brief period between cutting the barrel, & attaching the muzzle device, does anyone think the ATF can time their raid so perfectly that they will kick the door in during this 10 minute space of time? Once the muzzle device is permanently attached, the gun will again be legal. While I would never recommend anything illegal on an open forum, I personally wouldn't worry about it. But that's just my opinion, NOT advice. Afterall, the barrel was removed from the gun when the work was done, right? GARY N4KVE

 

Thank you for demonstrating the convoluted logic, and extreme level of rationalization which leads to quasi-anonymous, completely shitty advice, which may lead others into real trouble - if they are foolish enough to take it.

 

If you are willing to give this kind of advice to forum members and others you could care less about throwing under the bus - demonstrate some personal courage, and integrity by posting your name, addresss, and your insurance carriers information.... If you hold an FFL - post your public information.

 

If you aren't willing to do this, your advice. your integrity, and your personal credibitily are worth absolutely nothing here.

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I like my barrels the lenth they are I was just wondering about legalities

 

I appreciate you, brother. I've followed your posts, and you're the real deal, a forum member who asks good questions, and deserves good answers.

 

I hope the thread has been helpful to you.

 

Mike

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While the gun will be illegal during the brief period between cutting the barrel, & attaching the muzzle device, does anyone think the ATF can time their raid so perfectly that they will kick the door in during this 10 minute space of time? Once the muzzle device is permanently attached, the gun will again be legal. While I would never recommend anything illegal on an open forum, I personally wouldn't worry about it. But that's just my opinion, NOT advice. Afterall, the barrel was removed from the gun when the work was done, right? GARY N4KVE

 

Thank you for demonstrating the convoluted logic, and extreme level of rationalization which leads to quasi-anonymous, completely shitty advice, which may lead others into real trouble - if they are foolish enough to take it.

 

If you are willing to give this kind of advice to forum members and others you could care less about throwing under the bus - demonstrate some personal courage, and integrity by posting your name, addresss, and your insurance carriers information.... If you hold an FFL - post your public information.

 

If you aren't willing to do this, your advice. your integrity, and your personal credibitily are worth absolutely nothing here.

Boy what side of the bed did you wake up on. If you read my thread, you'd realize that I said this is what I would do, but I'm not advising anybody to do what I would do. Also, my avatar, which is my ham radio callsign, leads right to my front door, so I'm not anonymous. The end result is a legal gun with a 16" barrel including the permanently attached muzzle device. Who cares about 10 minutes. Eat a valium & chill. GARY N4KVE
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Whoa guys settle down. I just wanted to get other people's opinions to pass along because I don't want to see my buddy get in trouble. Its hard to schedule a range trip when your shooting partner is in the federal pen. Could anyone suggest a good online resource for tracking down a reputable licensed gunsmith in the area to save everyone from running the risk of some very real heartache?

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Now, the funny thing is that an AR owner can buy a 10" barrel separate from the upper, and it's no tax stamp required. (for all the barrel maker/sell knows, it's going into an AR pistol).

 

I don't see how this is different from pressing the barrel out of a Saiga, cutting 2" off the muzzle end, welding a brake or compensator on to get back over the 18" minimum length, and then pressing the barrel back in.

 

Of course, since ATF measures from the closed bolt face to the muzzle, it's a bit tough to make sure you remain legal. The fact that you have to press the barrel out (which *will* permanently screw up your gun when done incorrectly) means that this is something I would send out to have done by someone who has the tooling.

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Now, the funny thing is that an AR owner can buy a 10" barrel separate from the upper, and it's no tax stamp required. (for all the barrel maker/sell knows, it's going into an AR pistol).

 

I don't see how this is different from pressing the barrel out of a Saiga, cutting 2" off the muzzle end, welding a brake or compensator on to get back over the 18" minimum length, and then pressing the barrel back in.

 

Of course, since ATF measures from the closed bolt face to the muzzle, it's a bit tough to make sure you remain legal. The fact that you have to press the barrel out (which *will* permanently screw up your gun when done incorrectly) means that this is something I would send out to have done by someone who has the tooling.

 

You can buy a short barrel, but that doesn't make it legal to own. If you've got an AR in your safe and you buy a 10" barrel, you're in violation of the law.

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Now, the funny thing is that an AR owner can buy a 10" barrel separate from the upper, and it's no tax stamp required. (for all the barrel maker/sell knows, it's going into an AR pistol).

 

I don't see how this is different from pressing the barrel out of a Saiga, cutting 2" off the muzzle end, welding a brake or compensator on to get back over the 18" minimum length, and then pressing the barrel back in.

 

Of course, since ATF measures from the closed bolt face to the muzzle, it's a bit tough to make sure you remain legal. The fact that you have to press the barrel out (which *will* permanently screw up your gun when done incorrectly) means that this is something I would send out to have done by someone who has the tooling.

 

You can buy a short barrel, but that doesn't make it legal to own. If you've got an AR in your safe and you buy a 10" barrel, you're in violation of the law.

 

what if you've got a full length AR and a 10" pistol

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Now, the funny thing is that an AR owner can buy a 10" barrel separate from the upper, and it's no tax stamp required. (for all the barrel maker/sell knows, it's going into an AR pistol).

 

I don't see how this is different from pressing the barrel out of a Saiga, cutting 2" off the muzzle end, welding a brake or compensator on to get back over the 18" minimum length, and then pressing the barrel back in.

 

Of course, since ATF measures from the closed bolt face to the muzzle, it's a bit tough to make sure you remain legal. The fact that you have to press the barrel out (which *will* permanently screw up your gun when done incorrectly) means that this is something I would send out to have done by someone who has the tooling.

 

You can buy a short barrel, but that doesn't make it legal to own. If you've got an AR in your safe and you buy a 10" barrel, you're in violation of the law.

 

what if you've got a full length AR and a 10" pistol

 

If you have an AR pistol and other AR's, I would not recommend having any extra barrels.

 

SHORT barrels, I mean.

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Sementics.

 

The argument is over the wording :

'with a barrel'

'and a barrel'

 

My arguement is that the language is specific. 'with' means attached, or readily attachable (screw or latch)

'and' is not attached and not readily attachable (tools needed).

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While the gun will be illegal during the brief period between cutting the barrel, & attaching the muzzle device, does anyone think the ATF can time their raid so perfectly that they will kick the door in during this 10 minute space of time? Once the muzzle device is permanently attached, the gun will again be legal. While I would never recommend anything illegal on an open forum, I personally wouldn't worry about it. But that's just my opinion, NOT advice. Afterall, the barrel was removed from the gun when the work was done, right? GARY N4KVE

 

Thank you for demonstrating the convoluted logic, and extreme level of rationalization which leads to quasi-anonymous, completely shitty advice, which may lead others into real trouble - if they are foolish enough to take it.

 

If you are willing to give this kind of advice to forum members and others you could care less about throwing under the bus - demonstrate some personal courage, and integrity by posting your name, addresss, and your insurance carriers information.... If you hold an FFL - post your public information.

 

If you aren't willing to do this, your advice. your integrity, and your personal credibitily are worth absolutely nothing here.

Boy what side of the bed did you wake up on. If you read my thread, you'd realize that I said this is what I would do, but I'm not advising anybody to do what I would do. Also, my avatar, which is my ham radio callsign, leads right to my front door, so I'm not anonymous. The end result is a legal gun with a 16" barrel including the permanently attached muzzle device. Who cares about 10 minutes. Eat a valium & chill. GARY N4KVE

Coincidently, 10 minutes is probably about how long it will take your cell boss to make love to you while nobody is looking, too.020.gif But don't worry, if nobody sees it, it didn't really happen right? I think you either don't understand how this works, or you don't care. And either one will get you in trouble fast regardless of how clever you think you are. This is not a game of cat and mouse. And to say this is what you would do, but you are not advocating that....well, how dense do you think we are? Not as dense as someone who would thumb his nose at Federal Firearms laws and then lay out the welcome mat for the ATF. And as for having a "legal" gun afterwards....I happen to think there is a big difference between a legal gun and one that MAY not be able to be proven to be constructed illegally.

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There is no semantic blur in the matter of Constructive Possession; if you have parts that can be assembled into an NFA weapon, and you do not have a stamp for that weapon, you are in commission of a felony.

 

This goes for short AR barrels, machinegun FCG's and all the rest. People violate this all the time, and some of them get caught.

 

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/08/florida-man-arrested-for-const.html ...is one of the cases I remember. This guy was selling a GSG-5 "pistol". The case he was selling it in had a space for a stock. He was also selling a stock :)

 

ATF felony takedown is no joke.

 

And don't get me wrong- I'm not trying to argue for or against the law; just trying to keep you guys on the right side of it.

 

My sigline says it all.

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Mike, bob

 

This thread has me worried to the point where I took a barrel to my dads house. In the my case I have 3 ak kits. 1 is a pistol build and 2 are rifle builds. As parts in a box it could be easy to assert I have the ability to build an sbr. Am I correct to move my short barrel?

 

edit to correct stupid smartphone "auto correct"

Edited by smartbomb
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