Steve in Allentown, PA 5 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) In the not too distant past, Colorado Shooting Sports introduced their <Link Removed>. This moved the charging handle to left side of the bolt and required cutting the left side of the dust cover to allow room for the charging handle to reciprocate. I thought it was an interesting modification but for $250 I passed. More recently a young man in Maine developed the second generation of what he calls his <Link Removed>. It replaces the gas tube and allows left handed operation of the bolt just as did the Lightning Bolt. However, the RCS, being further forward, is much easier and more natural to manipulate. Unfortunately, it's still pricey. For the past month I've been evaluating the RCS. The example I received from the first production run exhibited excellent fit and finish with one exception. There is what I'll call a feed ramp inside the housing that guides the piston into a precisely fit hole that in turn guides it into the gas block. That feed ramp had not been properly cut in the manufacturing process and resulted in me breaking out my trusty Dremel tool to fix it. Once fixed the thing worked perfectly with no failures of any kind. My son, who is a high-speed, low-drag Army E-5 was home last weekend. After a range session he declared the RCS good to go. It allows him to use the same manual of arms with the Siaga .308 as he was taught to use with his issue M-4. The downside to the RCS is that I now have to replace the rfile's handguard. If anyone has a box-stock, unmodified, original Saiga .308 handguard, I would be very interested in buying it from you. Edited February 18, 2012 by Nailbomb Violation of forum rules. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Both of those systems are solutions to problems that do not exist. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Both of those systems are solutions to problems that do not exist. No one really asked. As a matter of fact the OP said it made the rifle operate more to his son's current manual of arms. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve in Allentown, PA 5 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Both of those systems are solutions to problems that do not exist. Yes, yes we can all stipulate that Cooper's famous saying applies to most firearms. They all seem to work just fine as designed. That doesn't mean a tweak here and there is not welcome. I like beavertail grip safeties, Noval sights, and Greider slide stops on 1911s. I also like Blackjack buffers in AKs and Magpul mags in ARs. None of these are original spec to the design but they all add a little something that I find appealing. There are purists for nearly every firearm out there who will decry any sort of change as being blasphemous. Whatever floats your boat. Makes me appreciate living in a capitalist system even more. This RCS device along with the Lightning Bolt before it offer the very real advantage of not having to reach over or under the weapon to charge it. Speeds things up, even if only marginally, and allow a much more natural movement. Sure you can train enough with a poor system to become very good at it but why not change the system to better match human ergonomics? I'm not selling these things and I don't have a thing to gain from their business success but if the asking price is within my budget, why should anyone care? Guess I'm a sucker for innovation. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joebanda1213 59 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 If there are no picks or videos then it didnt happen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 A left hand charging handle would be scarry as hell unless it is non reciprocating, and is forward on the gas tube. The AK is designed to held on the forend with the left hand and manipulated with the right. If you were taught to hold the pistol grip in your right and manipulate the gun with your left you need a left hand charging handle. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDeacon 168 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 It is non-reciprocating and forward on the gas tube. I have one mounted on my Saiga 223 and AK74. As they are bullpups, it makes them a lot easier to use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve in Allentown, PA 5 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'll take a pic and post it tomorrow night after work. The RCS does indeed have a non-reciprocating charging handle. It does not move unless you grab it and yank it back. Current Army doctrine teaches always maintaining your firing grip with your strong hand while changing mags and malfunction clearing with the left or weak hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'll take a pic and post it tomorrow night after work. The RCS does indeed have a non-reciprocating charging handle. It does not move unless you grab it and yank it back. Current Army doctrine teaches always maintaining your firing grip with your strong hand while changing mags and malfunction clearing with the left or weak hand. Interesting setup, wish it was a bit less expensive. My son (a former Marine) always stays on the grip with his right hand during mag changes and charging. It looks a bit awkward to reach up and around to charge the standard AK setup with his left hand but that's what he does. This would be an ideal solution for him. Add a mag well and he probably wouldn't be so anti-AK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) My son (a former Marine) always stays on the grip with his right hand during mag changes and charging. It looks a bit awkward to reach up and around to charge the standard AK setup with his left hand but that's what he does. This would be an ideal solution for him. Add a mag well and he probably wouldn't be so anti-AK. I just reach under with my left and don't find it to be awkward at all, but I don't have any significant experience running non AK assault type semi autos, so it seems perfectly natural to me. One problem with systems like this one or the Lightning Bolt which fundamentally alter how the rifle is run, is that if you find yourself having to use one of the millions of AKs that are not modified exactly like yours, then all of your hours spent training and developing muscle memory will end up working against you. Edited February 15, 2012 by Netpackrat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It allows him to use the same manual of arms with the Siaga .308 as he was taught to use with his issue M-4. I'm a little confused; how does putting the charging handle on the left side make the MOA of an AK the same as an M4? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TARE 47 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It allows him to use the same manual of arms with the Siaga .308 as he was taught to use with his issue M-4. I'm a little confused; how does putting the charging handle on the left side make the MOA of an AK the same as an M4? I think he's referring to how they are taught to keep the firing hand on the grip and manipulate with the left without reaching around or over. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve in Allentown, PA 5 Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It allows him to use the same manual of arms with the Siaga .308 as he was taught to use with his issue M-4. I'm a little confused; how does putting the charging handle on the left side make the MOA of an AK the same as an M4? Only in as much as you're able to reach up with your left hand and move the bolt without havng to reach over or under the receiver., On an M16/M4 the guys are being taught to hit the left side of the charging handle with their left hand to move the bolt without losing their firing grip. In my day, we were taught to actually grasp the charging handle on both sides to make it run. As a result of the new MOA a lot of charging handles are being damaged because of the repeated impact causing unequal stress on the charging handle. The expedient fix is to install a Bravo Company charging handle which has been designed to eliminate the uneven stress. I actually gave my son one of these BCM charging handles before he deployed to Afghanistan. He used it throughout his deployment and was pleased with it. Muscle memory is an interesting phenomenon. When my son runs the Saiga hard and fast he stumbles at the mag changes. Rock and lock is not something he's used to and he always smacks the mag on the bottom like he does with an M4 instead of pulling back on it to make it rotate past the mag catch. I agree with Gabe Suarez that training with the stock AKs is the way to go if you have any expectation of ending up in a bad place dealing with bad people. I have no such expectation and besides I have other toys that would be deployed before the Saiga. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 My son (a former Marine) always stays on the grip with his right hand during mag changes and charging. It looks a bit awkward to reach up and around to charge the standard AK setup with his left hand but that's what he does. This would be an ideal solution for him. Add a mag well and he probably wouldn't be so anti-AK. I just reach under with my left and don't find it to be awkward at all, but I don't have any significant experience running non AK assault type semi autos, so it seems perfectly natural to me. One problem with systems like this one or the Lightning Bolt which fundamentally alter how the rifle is run, is that if you find yourself having to use one of the millions of AKs that are not modified exactly like yours, then all of your hours spent training and developing muscle memory will end up working against you. I agree 100% as far as I'm concerned but will admit that 30 round mags still seem a bit awkward to work my way around since I started out initially racking with my right hand. I was mainly commenting on the problems my son has manipulating the charging handle (and magazine) since he has extensive time on the AR platform and not so much on the AK. I think a L/H charging handle and a mag well would do wonders for him. Still, all things taken into consideration, I believe the L/H handle and mag well would ultimately lead to faster reloading while staying on target for pretty much anyone. What I like about this setup is that you can leave the original handle in place and run either one, depending on changing circumstances such as an injury to either hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve in Allentown, PA 5 Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) If there are no picks or videos then it didnt happen Finally got my Photobucket account set up. Edited February 23, 2012 by Steve in Allentown PA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 use imgur instead of photobucket Not sure why they did not machine a rail into the cover of that thing... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saiga545 47 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 That is pretty sweet! But I agree that for the price, they should have put an optic rail on top. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Still, all things taken into consideration, I believe the L/H handle and mag well would ultimately lead to faster reloading while staying on target for pretty much anyone. Sonny Puzikas has demonstrated a 2 second trigger to trigger reload on a standard AK. It's hard to get much faster that. And it will work on more than just the one AK someone puts this contraption on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Still, all things taken into consideration, I believe the L/H handle and mag well would ultimately lead to faster reloading while staying on target for pretty much anyone. Sonny Puzikas has demonstrated a 2 second trigger to trigger reload on a standard AK. It's hard to get much faster that. And it will work on more than just the one AK someone puts this contraption on. The only video I could find was 3.02 seconds and he took his eyes off the sights while doing so and would have to reacquire the target thus adding time. I'll assume this is also a world record or close to it and not indicative of the average shooter's time. Again, my main thrust on this subject was the trouble my son had converting to the different ergonomics of the AK as opposed to the AR. I've never timed his reloads on the AR but suspect they are at least that fast and his eyes never leave the sights nor does the barrel wander off target. I'll try to time him but have doubts about my accuracy in that regard. I do understand your concerns about consistency of controls between different AKs. That is a valid statement but is also a non issue for him. He runs ARs not AKs so it makes more sense to adapt one AK to mimic his platform as closely as possible rather than change or adapt his muscle memory to a seldom used platform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Eyes on your sights do very little with a gun that is not in firing condition(like while reloading). At a minimum your already distracted. My suggestion to those who are not spending loads of ammo and time being real "operators" is to get through a reload as fast as possible using any means necessary. EDIT TO ADD: I can't even say that word without feeling like I'm on another forum full of elitists. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 If your so well invested into a weapon system and manual of arms maybe it would be best to stick to the system your a operator on? Any real operator obviously wouldn't want to change weapons systems anyway, and the monetary investment to get the right gun for that person to run right should be well worth their piece of mind. Also we are very well off topic from the original posters links to non business members, and want to buy add... Should I move this the the appropriate subforum and remove off topic replies? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 If your so well invested into a weapon system and manual of arms maybe it would be best to stick to the system your a operator on? Any real operator obviously wouldn't want to change weapons systems anyway, and the monetary investment to get the right gun for that person to run right should be well worth their piece of mind. That's a good point. If the idea is to build a .308 that behaves more like an AR... They DO make an AR in .308. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Eyes on your sights do very little with a gun that is not in firing condition(like while reloading). At a minimum your already distracted. My suggestion to those who are not spending loads of ammo and time being real "operators" is to get through a reload as fast as possible using any means necessary. EDIT TO ADD: I can't even say that word without feeling like I'm on another forum full of elitists. Reacquiring a target after a mag change is slower than staying on it during such. The distraction comes from taking your focus off potential threats to reload. I'm not an operator, never claimed to be, but my son currently is, at least that's what they pay him for. He's not an elitist, but does spend lots of money and time keeping his skill sets sharp. If your so well invested into a weapon system and manual of arms maybe it would be best to stick to the system your a operator on? Any real operator obviously wouldn't want to change weapons systems anyway, and the monetary investment to get the right gun for that person to run right should be well worth their piece of mind. Also we are very well off topic from the original posters links to non business members, and want to buy add... Should I move this the the appropriate subforum and remove off topic replies? I agree. He runs an AR and doesn't plan on changing. When he's home though, he shoots my Saigas as a change of pace. I only stated originally that this setup might make him more inclined to not dislike them. I thought that was innocent enough and also thought the OP and others were discussing the merits (or lack of such) of L/H charging on AK platforms. Your call on moving the topic to another subforum and perhaps it should be as it isn't 308 specific. But if comments are relegated to not posting non business members links and "want to buy" adds, then the thread is dead anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve in Allentown, PA 5 Posted February 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Not sure why they did not machine a rail into the cover of that thing... I suspect the reason had to do with the available development time and money. In my correspondence with Dublin AK Systems I suggested building in a rail for the next generation of this device. I also suggested that it be set up so that the top of the rail would be at the exact height as the top of the rail on the Texas Weapon System's dustcover. That would allow flip up sights to be mounted fore and aft. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Eyes on your sights do very little with a gun that is not in firing condition(like while reloading). At a minimum your already distracted. My suggestion to those who are not spending loads of ammo and time being real "operators" is to get through a reload as fast as possible using any means necessary. EDIT TO ADD: I can't even say that word without feeling like I'm on another forum full of elitists. Reacquiring a target after a mag change is slower than staying on it during such. The distraction comes from taking your focus off potential threats to reload. I'm not an operator, never claimed to be, but my son currently is, at least that's what they pay him for. He's not an elitist, but does spend lots of money and time keeping his skill sets sharp. If your so well invested into a weapon system and manual of arms maybe it would be best to stick to the system your a operator on? Any real operator obviously wouldn't want to change weapons systems anyway, and the monetary investment to get the right gun for that person to run right should be well worth their piece of mind. Also we are very well off topic from the original posters links to non business members, and want to buy add... Should I move this the the appropriate subforum and remove off topic replies? I agree. He runs an AR and doesn't plan on changing. When he's home though, he shoots my Saigas as a change of pace. I only stated originally that this setup might make him more inclined to not dislike them. I thought that was innocent enough and also thought the OP and others were discussing the merits (or lack of such) of L/H charging on AK platforms. Your call on moving the topic to another subforum and perhaps it should be as it isn't 308 specific. But if comments are relegated to not posting non business members links and "want to buy" adds, then the thread is dead anyway. With absolutely NO disrespect meant to your son, I can say from experience that by internet standards I ham fisted my reloads during my time as a active duty Sgt of Marines. There are a lot of internet jockeys out there I like to steer clear of. As far as what to do with the thread, I leave that to the OP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 With absolutely NO disrespect meant to your son, I can say from experience that by internet standards I ham fisted my reloads during my time as a active duty Sgt of Marines. There are a lot of internet jockeys out there I like to steer clear of. I never saw any disrespect on your part. I was only trying to clarify what I was trying to say by further explaining the situation. That's the first time (and possibly last) that I've ever mentioned his job online. I also agree with you completely about some of the "operators" online, hence my username which pokes a little fun at them. Thankfully though, you would never know what my son does for a living when he's not at work. He's very down to Earth and not pretentious at all. As to myself, my quickest reloads come when I take the rifle home and flip it over in the gun vise. I may be slow but always get it locked in eventually. Like you, my son was also a Marine (for five years) before his current job. Thanks for your service. I appreciate it. Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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