Saiga-12K" version 030-1 Project

[lbsrdi 1,078]

You are doing good things Ramlake.

[red_cedar 28]

You are doing good things Ramlake.

 

+1

[lelandeod 179]

I'm about 80% done with mine. I got the basic conversion done today but am waiting on a set of templates from RamLake to help cut the rear of the receiver for the side folding trunnion. So, I put a fixed stock on there temporarily.

I'm still debating whether or not to cut the side rail off.

But, I went a head and reassembled it just so I can test fire it to make sure everything works before I refinish it.

 

Getting there!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once everything's done, it off to the sand blaster then a nice matte black finish in Duracoat.

[HART1 92]

I think I have the Magwell AGP design worked out

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQF2uNefK1E

 

Ray,

I have been looking over your work on the Internet. Very impressive resume indeed!

I've dabbled with custom work before on different weapon systems and have eye balled what most everyone has done with a Saiga 12, and I am most impressed with what you have done. Don't get me wrong, Tromix, R.J. and others do some nice work also, but your creativity exceeds anything I've seen in Saiga 12 conversions. The Saiga 12 Krink you made, is hands down the nicest SBS I have ever seen and now your doing mods to AGP mags to work in the new LRBHO Russian magwell guns. Keep up the good work.

Edited February 24, 2012 by ARMOR

[ramlake 98]

Testing went as expected

 

First test showed the stock IZ-433 would cycle bulk pak and win 2 3/4 buck with no problem

 

now converted:

 

Iz-433 / 430mm barrel / win choke - full / completly non modified FCG / non modified bolt carrier group

 

cycles win 2 3/4 buck with no problems with / russian 4 and 8rd magwell mags and modified AGP magwell mags

 

walmarx bulk failure to eject do to non suffient bolcarrier travel / undergassed

 

Then tried a vepr design short gas tappet, still FTF

 

Now I will do basic tuning, reprofile bolt and carrier, FCG, feed ramp, extractor, hood, and retest. No polishing or bling just the basic reprofile.

 

At this point I feel the gas system is probably exactly like the russian 030 config and with the 430mm barrel behaves just like the russian 030's we have read about on this forum.

 

Testing soon

Edited February 24, 2012 by RamLake

[red_cedar 28]

Ram,

 

Was the 2/34 buck, unusaly harsh? You mentioned before that there may have been some rear trunnion effects when using the

2 3/4 before you trimmed down the barrel.

[ramlake 98]

Ram,

 

Was the 2/34 buck, unusaly harsh? You mentioned before that there may have been some rear trunnion effects when using the

2 3/4 before you trimmed down the barrel.

 

2 3/4 win buck even with 19" barrel was not harsh. I taped the truniun and found the carrier was bottoming out.

 

Now I do realize that some contact is perfectly normal with some loads.

 

I do not feel 3" magnums in a 19" IZ-433 is a good idea! and I do not think Izmash cares if you damage the gun.

 

With the 430mm barrel 2 3/4 win buck seemed fine. I need to do more testing and try to see how hard the BCG is stricking the carrier.

 

A good way to tell is put mylar tape inside the truniun and test fire.

[lelandeod 179]

I test fired the 12K this morning and had the exact same results that Ray had. With the shorter barrel, it would not cycle the Federal value packs but chewed through 2 3/4" high brass like nothing. I swapped out the stock spring for a 1911 spring I use in my other S-12 and it cycled the Federal value pack ammo just fine. It will need some break in and some massaging to get it to cycle the cheap stuff, but the initial signs are very promising.

[red_cedar 28]

I test fired the 12K this morning and had the exact same results that Ray had. With the shorter barrel, it would not cycle the Federal value packs but chewed through 2 3/4" high brass like nothing. I swapped out the stock spring for a 1911 spring I use in my other S-12 and it cycled the Federal value pack ammo just fine. It will need some break in and some massaging to get it to cycle the cheap stuff, but the initial signs are very promising.

 

you trimmed your barrel as well?

 

nice build by the way,

 

Im partial to the polymer furniture look on the s-12's 030

Edited February 24, 2012 by red_cedar

[ramlake 98]

I test fired the 12K this morning and had the exact same results that Ray had. With the shorter barrel, it would not cycle the Federal value packs but chewed through 2 3/4" high brass like nothing. I swapped out the stock spring for a 1911 spring I use in my other S-12 and it cycled the Federal value pack ammo just fine. It will need some break in and some massaging to get it to cycle the cheap stuff, but the initial signs are very promising.

 

Did you perm attach or SBS

[Scorch95 1]

I got the basic conversion done today but am waiting on a set of templates from RamLake to help cut the rear of the receiver for the side folding trunnion.

 

Would these be available for other people? I would love to go for this but I would need a template or jig for my comfort level to attempt.

[lelandeod 179]

I got the basic conversion done today but am waiting on a set of templates from RamLake to help cut the rear of the receiver for the side folding trunnion.

 

Would these be available for other people? I would love to go for this but I would need a template or jig for my comfort level to attempt.

 

Send me or Ram a PM.

 

I test fired the 12K this morning and had the exact same results that Ray had. With the shorter barrel, it would not cycle the Federal value packs but chewed through 2 3/4" high brass like nothing. I swapped out the stock spring for a 1911 spring I use in my other S-12 and it cycled the Federal value pack ammo just fine. It will need some break in and some massaging to get it to cycle the cheap stuff, but the initial signs are very promising.

 

Did you perm attach or SBS

 

I had it permenantly attached (double blind pinned top and bottom).

[havok 21]

I got the basic conversion done today but am waiting on a set of templates from RamLake to help cut the rear of the receiver for the side folding trunnion.

 

Would these be available for other people? I would love to go for this but I would need a template or jig for my comfort level to attempt.

 

Go to saigatech.com for the templet $60.

[Scorch95 1]

I got the basic conversion done today but am waiting on a set of templates from RamLake to help cut the rear of the receiver for the side folding trunnion.

 

Would these be available for other people? I would love to go for this but I would need a template or jig for my comfort level to attempt.

 

Go to saigatech.com for the templet $60.

 

Thanks, there isn't a link for purchase do I just need to send them an email?

[Jeluvsk 58]

just email him. Ray's a pretty nice guy, I ordered a set of AK100 templates from him as well

 

 

 

EDIT: website is saigatechusa . com

Edited February 24, 2012 by Jeluvsk

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Took mine out today post conversion.

 

No failures with 100 rounds fed. bul pack, 20 2 3/4 1 oz slugs, and 15 3" magnum 00B. It seems the 19" barrel is the trick to getting it to run with the birdshot. The 3" shells were ejecting about 25 feet.

[lelandeod 179]

I dove into my rear trunnion and removed the side mount scope rail today. From the photos I've found, it looks like the scope mount holes are present on other S12K's, but the unused holes have domed rivets covering them. So, I riveted them closed as opposed to welding them shut. For the trunnion, I used the blueprints Pookie was gracious enough to host on his site.

 

I placed the trunnion on the left side of the receiver and took a look at how well it lined up with my scribed lines. Sanity check!

 

 

Drilled the holes for the bottom rivet:

 

 

Cut the hinge relief:

 

 

Pushed in rivets to make sure everything lined up:

 

 

Drilled starter holes for the rear stock latch:

 

 

...Filed 'til my fingers were numb:

 

 

...then filed some more:

 

 

Voila!

 

 

 

...Notes: The S-12 trunnion used the large .172" diameter rivets for both the top rear long rivet and the two short rivets for the forked trunnion. Rather than weld the holes up and re-drill to the smaller diameter, I just reamed out the 100-series trunnion and used some spare .172" diameter rivets I had laying around.

 

Also, I am having the same thing happen with this S-12 as I had with my other 109 when I swapped out the rear trunnion. The bolt carrier is hitting the arms of the trunnion just enough to stick under full recoil. I'm going to have to mill them down a bit for clearance.

 

I haven't heard of anyone else having this trouble though...

 

I used some high temp engine paint to coat the receiver temporarily. One thing I've learned is not to spend a lot of time prepping and duracoating an un-test fired firearm ...and, for once, it paid off. I would have been pissed had I pulled out the airbrush and spent all day blasting, degreasing, duracoating and reassembling this thing -just to find out that the trunnion rubs and I have to mess up my nice new paint job to fix a glitch.

 

Once it cycles reliably, I'll disassemble it, strip and paint it up proper.

[red_cedar 28]

I haven't heard of anyone else having this trouble though...

 

There is a diagram on here somewhere that shows the trunnion area that needs to be modified.

 

Nice job!

 

here is the thread....http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/21197-skotts-saiga-12-c-conversion/page__st__30

Edited February 26, 2012 by red_cedar

[havok 21]

lelandEOD you are calling yours a K model, would your rear trunnion trouble have something to do with the K model safety when stock is folded? Or Does anybody know what this blocking mechanism looks like.

 

The “Saiga-12K” ver.030 shotgun features a magazine guide, hinged cover of a receiver, folding buttstock and an AK-type fore-end made of plastic. The trigger-and-firing mechanism blocking allows delivering fire only when the buttstock is unfolded

 

 

The “Saiga-12S EXP-01” ver.030 features a magazine guide, receiver hinged cover, folding buttstock and an AK-type fore-end made of plastic. No blocking of the trigger-and-firing mechanism.

[Scorch95 1]

The trunion hitting issue I believe I have read is due to the fact that the actual s12 folding trunion is slightly different than the others to allow for more clearance. That or they are clearanced at the factory before assembly.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Scorch95

[ramlake 98]

I dove into my rear trunnion and removed the side mount scope rail today. From the photos I've found, it looks like the scope mount holes are present on other S12K's, but the unused holes have domed rivets covering them. So, I riveted them closed as opposed to welding them shut. For the trunnion, I used the blueprints Pookie was gracious enough to host on his site.

 

I placed the trunnion on the left side of the receiver and took a look at how well it lined up with my scribed lines. Sanity check!

 

 

Drilled the holes for the bottom rivet:

 

 

Cut the hinge relief:

 

 

Pushed in rivets to make sure everything lined up:

 

 

Drilled starter holes for the rear stock latch:

 

 

...Filed 'til my fingers were numb:

 

 

...then filed some more:

 

 

Voila!

 

 

 

...Notes: The S-12 trunnion used the large .172" diameter rivets for both the top rear long rivet and the two short rivets for the forked trunnion. Rather than weld the holes up and re-drill to the smaller diameter, I just reamed out the 100-series trunnion and used some spare .172" diameter rivets I had laying around.

 

Also, I am having the same thing happen with this S-12 as I had with my other 109 when I swapped out the rear trunnion. The bolt carrier is hitting the arms of the trunnion just enough to stick under full recoil. I'm going to have to mill them down a bit for clearance.

 

I haven't heard of anyone else having this trouble though...

 

I used some high temp engine paint to coat the receiver temporarily. One thing I've learned is not to spend a lot of time prepping and duracoating an un-test fired firearm ...and, for once, it paid off. I would have been pissed had I pulled out the airbrush and spent all day blasting, degreasing, duracoating and reassembling this thing -just to find out that the trunnion rubs and I have to mess up my nice new paint job to fix a glitch.

 

Once it cycles reliably, I'll disassemble it, strip and paint it up proper.

 

Sorry IelandEOD I should have pointed that out and while your at it put a relieve cut for the firing pin so it won't get peened with 3" magnim loads

 

Great job!!!

[lelandeod 179]

Yup! I'm heading over to the in-law's shop today to use the mill again. Aggravating. If you look closely at the top photo, you can actually see the scribed line I put on the side of the trunnion to mark the difference between the factory trunnion and the unmodified folding trunnion. I initially thought I'd give it a go to see if there was any interference because I felt like that was an aweful lot of material to remove so close to the rear latch hole. Lesson learned.

 

Ray,

any chance you could post a photo of the firing pin recess on the rear trunnion?

[vicdoc 38]

Are the fore grips that come with the gun US or imported? If we have to get US made, do all US grips fit or do they need modification? Thanks.

[ramlake 98]

Yup! I'm heading over to the in-law's shop today to use the mill again. Aggravating. If you look closely at the top photo, you can actually see the scribed line I put on the side of the trunnion to mark the difference between the factory trunnion and the unmodified folding trunnion. I initially thought I'd give it a go to see if there was any interference because I felt like that was an aweful lot of material to remove so close to the rear latch hole. Lesson learned.

 

Ray,

any chance you could post a photo of the firing pin recess on the rear trunnion?

 

I just used a 3/16" ball end mill and relieved the area in the rear trunuin about .100" Dp

 

I will try to post soon

 

Are the fore grips that come with the gun US or imported? If we have to get US made, do all US grips fit or do they need modification? Thanks.

 

Russian made. Kavar / arenal AK handguards have deep recesses forming the ribs, and when you remove material to clear the larger s12 barrel it will break thru.

 

Another nice reason to SBS no 922r and no need to perm attached muzzle device.

[Scorch95 1]

I was under the impression that sbs/sbr does not negate 922r requirements/restrictions.

[vicdoc 38]

Recently it seems ATF says SBR (and by extension, SBS) need to be compliant with 922®, despite letters, one from Owens, in the past saying they need not. Here is a letter saying they do need to comply... what to do?

Edited February 28, 2012 by vicdoc

[gregomega 929]

^ dislike. Leave my sbr alone 922r

[Scorch95 1]

The only thing I've ever been told that circumvents requirements like that, which grain of salt applies here as I've never verified, is that a registered machine gun does not require sbr/sbs papers. Personally I'm sketchy on this as well and wouldn't trust that either. Oh well sorry for the off topic. Back on course.

 

Great job on the -030 everyone. I'm sure I speak for everyone when i say that I'm jealous and admire all of the work and effort that has been put in so far.

[ramlake 98]

Recently it seems ATF says SBR (and by extension, SBS) need to be compliant with 922®, despite letters, one from Owens, in the past saying they need not. Here is a letter saying they do need to comply... what to do?

 

Great Info VicDoc Thanks

 

Well I've got a US made muzzle device, US made pistal grip, US made tappet, US made mag body / follower c/ floor plate, US TG which I don't think counts Any other suggestions

[Scorch95 1]

What trigger, hammer, and disconnector are you using? If these are US parts then with the US mags you are fine as is with the parts you listed above. Since you are using a folding stock, assuming 5.5mm russian stock set, you may have to wait to use russian mags until someone releases a new puck that is US made or if your handguard is foreign (unsure) then maybe find a US made set and replace and you should be good to go with any magazine.