Make An Argument for .308 or x39

[Bravo One 5]

For either an AK in .308 or in 7.62x39.

 

Here is the terrain:

 

A previously thinned timber area, now heavy woodland, with 15 years worth of small diameter tree and brush undergrowth; hog and deer heaven now. Long and narrow logging roads wind their way in a labyrinth through the 100's of acres of slow rolling terrain. After some distance, these roads lead to random wide clearings of pasture, most under 20 acres, but irregularly arranged and shaped. There are 2 separate clearings for 2 pipelines that run through the area, and the views here can be in the 1000's of yards.

 

 

-Practical applications and considerations-

 

1) Self defense on the roads, in the timber and over the clearings.

2) Hunting in these areas, whether it be deer at an unknown range or hogs.

 

So, what I am wanting to know, since I have been unable to find satisfactory answers, and the terra firma is of some complexity, is which of these calibers would you chose for the above conditions taking into consideration each platforms:

 

-barrier penetration (brush, trees, unknown barriers) (it's understood .308 has the advantage)

-ability for follow up shots (?)

-platform weight (aren't they close with 308 being the heavier)

-platform cost (x39 cheaper, significantly with mags and ammo)

-maximum effectiveness in the above environment (?)

 

Your opinions and if you would, reasons why, in case I have missed something. A brain is a good thing to pick... just not through the nose.

 

-Thanks

Edited August 7, 2012 by Nailbomb

[second shooter 22]

what is in the pipeline and how thick is it?

[Bravo One 5]

what is in the pipeline and how thick is it?

 

Natural gas pipeline, transportation 18 inches diameter, ~30 inches below ground.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Probably underground pipeline. The 1,000+ yds of clearing is just where pipeline Right Of Way (ROW) cut thru the trees for installation and maintenance. Not many above ground pipelines (for long lengths) in the lower 48.

 

Soft point x39 will handle most any hunting application you mentioned, except long range.

I say right tool for the right job, get'em both.

[thebuns1 4,323]

if it were me, id go with x39. you can achieve a better rate of sustained fire with it over the .308. while the .308 would offer you better range and better accuracy at longer distances, i feel it would be more prone to overheat much quicker in a scenario where a higher rate of fire would be desired. both would be plenty for deer and hogs in terms of power, but the real question on that would be the targets range. and follow up shots may be quicker in the x39. and i havent seen any hi cap mags for the 308. at least not here. but i dont own one and have never set out to obtain any. both will penetrate brush well. just some things to consider.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

There are plenty of high-cap mags for the S-.308, CSSpecs and Uinta Industries both manufacture them, and I think there's at least one other company that also manufactures high-capacity magazines for that rifle.

[csspecs 1,987]

For deer and hogs at or past 100 yards .308 is my pick. Ammo costs more but it does have a little more energy.

 

If your trying to shoot through living hard wood .308 is probably your best bet.

 

And you can get all the standard capacity mags you want, we have 20s and should be restocking the low capacity 15s, 10s and 5s fairly soon.

(20 is standard for .308, anything less is low capacity )

[thebuns1 4,323]

There are plenty of high-cap mags for the S-.308, CSSpecs and Uinta Industries both manufacture them, and I think there's at least one other company that also manufactures high-capacity magazines for that rifle.

 

cool. i didnt know that. ill have to remember that.

[BBQ_Pork 1]

I'm voting .308

 

Here's some trivia for you: Both 10 rounds of .308 (150gr) and 21 rounds of .223 (62gr) weigh about 8 and 5/8 oz.

Not sure about 7.62x39.

[RED333 1,025]

Wikpedia is my friend.

7.62x51 is my vote

Ballistic performance Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy 9.7 g (150 gr) FMJ 850 m/s (2,800 ft/s) 3,504 J (2,584 ft·lbf) 11.3 g (174 gr) M118 Long Range BTHP 790 m/s (2,600 ft/s) 3,526 J (2,601 ft·lbf)

 

 

7.63x39 Ballistic performance Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy 123 gr (8.0 g) Full metal jacket 731.5 m/s (2,400 ft/s) 2,073.6 J (1,529.4 ft·lbf) 154 gr (10.0 g) Spitzer SP 641.3 m/s (2,104 ft/s) 2,056.3 J (1,516.6 ft·lbf) 123.5 gr (8.00 g) Full metal jacket 804.7 m/s (2,640 ft/s) 2,460 J (1,810 ft·lbf) 123 gr (8.0 g) Full metal jacket 738 m/s (2,420 ft/s) 2,179 J (1,607 ft·lbf)

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

/\ /\ what he said and Shandlanos, the 308 will give you what you need.

[Salmonking 149]

7.62x39 will give you what you need. 308 will do everything better, but will be more expensive. Personally, I like the 7.62x39 because it's cheaper ammo, cheaper magazines, and a lighter overall package.

[Bravo One 5]

if it were me, id go with x39. you can achieve a better rate of sustained fire with it over the .308. while the .308 would offer you better range and better accuracy at longer distances, i feel it would be more prone to overheat much quicker in a scenario where a higher rate of fire would be desired...

 

What kind of margin are we talking about with sustained rate of fire? Lets modify the question to sustained accurate rates of fire, just to be clear, and all on the same page. Are we talking x39 1round/1 second and .308 1round/2 seconds? It is understood shooter experience will come into play, but from a mechanical viewpoint, is it a sizable difference?

 

And also as pointed out by Captain Hero, something I had not considered, which is why I did this post, barrel heating when rapid firing. I can see the x39 being more tolerant of rapid fire than the .308. However, is this a major element or a recondite detail?

 

Good information so far all, keep the pile growing.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Bravo One

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Since you never know what you dont know always take what you know will let em know they messin with the wrong dude ya know.

308 hands down, no question, nothing to debate.

[biskitz 24]

In my opinion, the .308 will ALWAYS be superior to x39. More velocity, more energy, more, more, more. If you want to minimize recoil etc, get a 22lr.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Factor in barrel length for optimum performance? How about barrel length vs. humping thru heavy brush?

[G O B 3,516]

Looks like most of your shots will be 100 yards or less. That is perfect for the X-39. The S-.308 is a LOT more expen$ive to shoot, and the heavier ammo makes toting it less fun. The X-39 allows faster follow up shots, and you can use the cheap and reliable comblock mags. The 20rd ones are the easiest to carry and make the gun handle nicely. IMHO the perfect brush gun.

[Dudethebagman 222]

I'd probably go 308 for hunting in the open areas. It's flatter shooting and will hit harder at a distance.

 

But I'd probably go x39 for self defense. It packs enough punch to get that job done but is lighter weight (more ammo), lighter recoiling (therefore faster), and cheaper to shoot (more practice bang for your buck, therefore more frequent range trips). If I were walking through a clearing and someone started shooting at me from somewhere semi distant, I think I'd get my ass back into the woods even if I had a 308. But how likely is that scenario really? I worry about road rage or drunk/high aggressors more than worst case scenarios where people are randomly sniping at me in the woods.

 

I have both and like both, but they serve somewhat different purposes. Do you need the extra distance and power 308 provides? Or would you rather have a faster handling rifle? It hurts my bank account a lot less to shoot x39, but I'd much rather have a 308 if I were shooting animals or more than a couple hundred yards away.

 

Either caliber sounds like it'd work for you. It just depends whether you're looking more for a hunting rifle with self defense capabilities, or a self defense rifle with hunting capabilities.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Dudethebagman

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Version 123.7 of this debate.

You never know when you will run up on a "hardened" target do we.

 

Anyway odds are you will end up using whatever survives the confiscations.

In that case would most likely be a folding Kel-Tec 40SW (easy to hide) and a 40SW XD (ditto)... or a rock.

[RobRez 1,895]

Without a doubt I say .308 all the way. A far better selection of quality hunting rounds, 25 rouind magazines, and if you can't get a quick follow up shot with a Saiga .308, you either are a 35 lb midget, or the biggest whimp in the world. A Saiga .308 is Sooo mild to shoot, it is like a dream come true. The ONLY reason I have a x39 is for cheap plinking.

Why get the "little brother" when the "big brother" is nearly identical to shoot and offers a lot more!!

[thebuns1 4,323]

if it were me, id go with x39. you can achieve a better rate of sustained fire with it over the .308. while the .308 would offer you better range and better accuracy at longer distances, i feel it would be more prone to overheat much quicker in a scenario where a higher rate of fire would be desired...

 

What kind of margin are we talking about with sustained rate of fire? Lets modify the question to sustained accurate rates of fire, just to be clear, and all on the same page. Are we talking x39 1round/1 second and .308 1round/2 seconds? It is understood shooter experience will come into play, but from a mechanical viewpoint, is it a sizable difference?

 

yes thats more of what i was trying to get at.

 

And also as pointed out by Captain Hero, something I had not considered, which is why I did this post, barrel heating when rapid firing. I can see the x39 being more tolerant of rapid fire than the .308. However, is this a major element or a recondite detail?

 

Good information so far all, keep the pile growing.

 

 

 

i was assuming by your first post for a self defense scenario, you meant as in a firefight. and to be honest, im not sure how the s308 would do if you had to use it in such a roll. (good if i had to guess). ive only shot one just once and that was one mag. i dumped all ten rounds with a cold barrel and it was noticably hotter than its smaller brother. and with a hot barrel you'd open up your groups (generally speaking). again, im very limited in knowledge with the s308, but this was my biggest concern as i was thinking about picking one up myself. but as far as the better caliber, 308 has it beat. but to me it depends on the intention of the weapon., im just trying to find some of the cons or would be cons, before i make the purchase so i can make an accurate decision based on pros and cons on both.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Anyway odds are you will end up using whatever survives the confiscations.

 

thats assuming people let them take them. (many will). ive always fought for what i believe in and and always will. even if that means dying a free man at the hands of tyrants and their oppression, then so be it. at least i wont have to live at their mercy. but in the end, we all share the same fate.

[RedDevilGuns 25]

@rhodes I'm always a ”hardened” some call it wrong I just call it a gift. but yea if you intend on a huntin' gun go with the 308. you git yer $'s worth but I'd it's a walking around gun go with the X39.

 

Target damn you phone

[IndyArms 10,186]

I voted other.

PSL.

lightweight. more bang for the buck.

just as handy as any ak platform out there.

Reloads can be any .308 dia. bullet on the market

surplus is cheap and shoots well.

 

I shouldnt have to "sell it"... BUT... you havent ever shot one, or you would not even have started this poll.

 

and... If you whine about the lack of "hi-caps" ... you are either doing something wrong with your trigger finger. Or are too lazy to swap mags.

 

 

[RedDevilGuns 25]

And now for something completely different....

 

I voted other.

PSL.

lightweight. more bang for the buck.

just as handy as any ak platform out there.

Reloads can be any .308 dia. bullet on the market

surplus is cheap and shoots well.

 

I shouldnt have to "sell it"... BUT... you havent ever shot one, or you would not even have started this poll.

 

and... If you whine about the lack of "hi-caps" ... you are either doing something wrong with your trigger finger. Or are too lazy to swap mags.

 

 

[thebuns1 4,323]

... If you whine about the lack of "hi-caps" ... you are either doing something wrong with your trigger finger. Or are too lazy to swap mags.

 

 

 

that'll be me...specially after i have a few beers.

[Bravo One 5]

I voted other.

PSL.

lightweight. more bang for the buck.

just as handy as any ak platform out there.

Reloads can be any .308 dia. bullet on the market

surplus is cheap and shoots well.

 

I shouldnt have to "sell it"... BUT... you havent ever shot one, or you would not even have started this poll.

 

and... If you whine about the lack of "hi-caps" ... you are either doing something wrong with your trigger finger. Or are too lazy to swap mags.

 

 

 

Yes, this is totally new, well to me. Thank You. I will be looking into the weapon and the 7.62x54R cartridge soon.

 

All these replies, to this point have shown me that I still have some hard thought ahead on the subject. I understand all the points made, and they are very sagacious, thank you guys/gals.

[RedDevilGuns 25]

It's okay newbie you'll find what works for you best by trial and error but if nothing else buy one of each and if nothing else it'll give you a reason to buy more guns. And I think that's a good problem to have.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I voted other.

PSL.

lightweight. more bang for the buck.

just as handy as any ak platform out there.

Reloads can be any .308 dia. bullet on the market

surplus is cheap and shoots well.

 

I shouldnt have to "sell it"... BUT... you havent ever shot one, or you would not even have started this poll.

 

and... If you whine about the lack of "hi-caps" ... you are either doing something wrong with your trigger finger. Or are too lazy to swap mags.

 

 

 

Sure, you CAN reload 7.62x54R with .308 diameter projectiles, but you won't get great accuracy. .311 or .312 bullets are intended for that caliber, unless you have a Finnish Mosin that was rebarreled with a .308 diameter bore.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Yo B one, what state is this land in? You mentioned deer and hogs as animals, depending on where this land is. It might make a difference on the choices.