Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Moodsman

Why is modification for AK-47 Magazines needed?

Recommended Posts

Here is what I don't understand.

 

What is the difference between a Saiga magazine and a regular AK-47 magazine that makes it necessary to install the extra guide plate in the receiver, in order for ammo to load reliably.

 

I'm not asking what the difference is in the gun, I'm asking what the difference is in the magazine itself. Is there a mod that can be done to the magazine that does not require modding the gun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saiga rifles don't have a feed ramp. The saiga magazines have a built in feed lip, which standard AK mags lack, ergo the need for a bullet guide in Saiga rifles to make standard AK mags useable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a way to be able to sell it as a 10 shot only rifle. If they only make saiga mags in <10 rounds. Since the rifles won't work out of the box with 30 rounders or whatever, it helps them to qualify as "sporting"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a way to be able to sell it as a 10 shot only rifle. If they only make saiga mags in <10 rounds. Since the rifles won't work out of the box with 30 rounders or whatever, it helps them to qualify as "sporting"

 

That makes sense... but wouln't putting the spacer in then be a modification that would make the gun legally non-conformant?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a way to be able to sell it as a 10 shot only rifle. If they only make saiga mags in <10 rounds. Since the rifles won't work out of the box with 30 rounders or whatever, it helps them to qualify as "sporting"

 

That makes sense... but wouln't putting the spacer in then be a modification that would make the gun legally non-conformant?

 

The bullet guide is legal.....using import 30 round magazines are not....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why I am confused.

 

Look at this page (it seems to be a recommended agazine)

http://www.mississip...zine-p-140.html

 

They say that If I use a 30 round magazine, I have to change something else to keep the gun legal.

But here I am being told that using an 'import' magazine over 10 rounds makes the gun illegal.

But the 30 round magazine listed above is made in America.

 

I'm I just having an elderly moment here that I don't understand this?

Edited by Moodsman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why I am confused.

 

Look at this page (it seems to be a recommended agazine)

http://www.mississip...zine-p-140.html

 

They say that If I use a 30 round magazine, I have to change something else to keep the gun legal.

But here I am being told that using an 'import' magazine over 10 rounds makes the gun illegal.

But the 30 round magazine listed above is made in America.

 

I'm I just having an elderly moment here that I don't understand this?

 

Most of us just prefer surplus steel magazines. You can almost buy 3 of them for the cost of 1 crappy U.S. made polymer mag.

 

If the magazine is U.S. made, it counts as 3 compliance parts all by itself. If the mag is foreign, you have to replace a few more parts on the gun for it to be legal with the foreign 30rd mag inserted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my understanding of 922r law Saigas are imported into the US in a sporting configuration with no evil features. My adding any evil feature you know must know fully comply with 922r compatibility. A mag greater than 10 rounds is considered an evil feature. Your rifle may (or may not just luck of the draw) be physically capable of accepting the larger magazine with no modifications but you would breaking federal law. So if you wish to use greater than 10 round magazines, add a pistol grip, add afolding stock, add a muzzle device, or have a bayonet lug you must fully convert your rifle to be 922r compliant.

 

 

This is why I am confused.

 

Look at this page (it seems to be a recommended agazine)

http://www.mississip...zine-p-140.html

 

They say that If I use a 30 round magazine, I have to change something else to keep the gun legal. Yes you must convert your saiga to be 922r compliant (usually means swapping the trigger, buttstock and adding a US pistol grip), since you are adding an evil feature.

But here I am being told that using an 'import' magazine over 10 rounds makes the gun illegal. Yes anything over 10 rounds is no longer considered sporting and are "evil".

But the 30 round magazine listed above is made in America. While it will give you 3 US parts, you must still make the gun 922r compliant and the magazine isn't enough.

 

I'm I just having an elderly moment here that I don't understand this?

 

Your saiga has 14 foreign parts (that count for 922r) you need to get that number to 10 or below. A g2 trigger is 3 parts, and a buttsock is 1 more so thats 10 parts and you're legal again (and can use any magazine you so wish). Using a US magazine further reduces it another 3, which means you could add a foreign made muzzle device or foreign produced stock or pistol grip but doesn't give you any other benefits.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edit: I am not a lawyer and this all my basic understanding of the law and how it applies, take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt.

Edited by azchris11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I modded a surplus 30 round mag before I learned of the bullet guide. I just welded a short piece of a nail in the front of the mag to build it up to match the factory mag. the surplus mags have a notch cut away in the front compared to saiga factory mags. I also had to shave the mag relece lever just a little. It worked fine.

Edited by deadeye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So there seems to be quite a bit of confusion on this matter, even on this board.

 

To summarize, if you use any magazine larger than 10 rounds, and you have not done some major work (essentially a full conversion + some oher stuff) on your Saiga "sport" gun, you are in violation of 922R, regardless of the source of the extra large magazine.

 

An excellent explanation (should be MUST reading for alll Saiga owners) can be found here:

http://home.comcast..../home/922r.html

 

I ordered a set of 4 Bulgarian 30 round magazines "just to have" for $60, but unless I do a full conversion, I guess that I will avoid using them. As long as it isn;t illegall to own them, no problem.

 

But I am pretty much convinced that adding the guide plate to the receiver is a good idea, as long as it doesn't break the use of standard magazines, and it doesn't break 922r compliance. So that is one mod that I will do.

 

Now the wait for the gun to actially arrive (hence the time to read up and let the mind think too much).

 

And maybe I should wait wait a while for even that basic mod for warranty reasons.

Edited by Moodsman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I modded a surplus 30 round mag before I learned of the bullet guide. I just welded a short piece of a nail in the front of the mag to build it up to match the factory mag. the surplus mags have a notch cut away in the front compared to saiga factory mags. I also had to shave the mag relece lever just a little. It worked fine.

 

Thank you. So Saiga magazines are essentially "taller" than regular AK magazines. Makes sense now.

 

I read somewhere else that if you want to continue using "standard" Saiga magazines after intalling the shim.you need to mod the front of the mag to be shorter!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read somewhere else that if you want to continue using "standard" Saiga magazines after intalling the shim.you need to mod the front of the mag to be shorter!

 

True you just have to match the front profile of the Saiga mag to that of the surplus mag, however some people have reported that they could use Saiga mags without modification after installing the bullet guide (think it depends how far into the receiver that the bullet guide sticks out once it is installed). I had to modify my factory mags to work after installing my bullet guides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've used my factory mag without any problems after installing the bullet guide. Never modified the factory mag.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... To summarize, if you use any magazine larger than 10 rounds, and you have not done some major work (essentially a full conversion + some oher stuff) on your Saiga "sport" gun, you are in violation of 922R, regardless of the source of the extra large magazine....

 

I wouldn't say major work, a simple buttstock, pistol grip and trigger group conversion will get you down to 10 foreign parts (counting the surplus mag as 3 parts), assuming you use all US made parts, without having to touch the foregrip or muzzle of the rifle, allowing you to use surplus mags.

Edited by TJohn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the 20 "parts" that the gov't lists as firearms parts that are part of the 922r count......but this point still has me confused.

 

It is clear enough that if the "standard" sporterized import has a certain "item"....(let's say, a rear-stock) that is part of the 20-item gov't list on "count".....sure....replacing it with a US made part adds 1 US-made component to the mix ( better said..."reduces the foreign" part count by 1).

 

However....if the sporterized original gun NEVER had a pistol grip to BEGIN WITH......can adding a US-made pistol grip reduce the foreign parts count by "1" as we're all saying here?......OR.....by adding a pistol grip FEATURE......did your starting count go up by "1" in the first place?....meaning--->instead of a Saiga sporter rifle starting out with (say) 14 parts count...are you now starting out with 15 instead? Then....by adding a "US" made pistol grip.....you now reduce the parts count by " 1"...netting you no gain or loss since you *added* a feature that wasn't there originally.......

 

????

 

How's that ????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the 20 "parts" that the gov't lists as firearms parts that are part of the 922r count......but this point still has me confused.

 

It is clear enough that if the "standard" sporterized import has a certain "item"....(let's say, a rear-stock) that is part of the 20-item gov't list on "count".....sure....replacing it with a US made part adds 1 US-made component to the mix ( better said..."reduces the foreign" part count by 1).

 

However....if the sporterized original gun NEVER had a pistol grip to BEGIN WITH......can adding a US-made pistol grip reduce the foreign parts count by "1" as we're all saying here?......OR.....by adding a pistol grip FEATURE......did your starting count go up by "1" in the first place?....meaning--->instead of a Saiga sporter rifle starting out with (say) 14 parts count...are you now starting out with 15 instead? Then....by adding a "US" made pistol grip.....you now reduce the parts count by " 1"...netting you no gain or loss since you *added* a feature that wasn't there originally.......

 

????

 

How's that ????

 

If you add a US pistol grip, it's a wash. If you add a foreign made grip, +1 to the foreign parts count.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thought so....adding a stand-alone pistol grip ( US made)..... to a "sporterized" import that never had it in the first place....makes it a wash. Good clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the original question. If the 7.62 mags are similar to 5.45 mags (with regard to the question of why the mags need to be modified).....here is another way to answer the question. The Saiga gun is missing the "bullet guide"...so the chamber of the barrel sits high with no "feed-ramp" or "bullet-guide" on the gun itself. There is a large, right-angle "Step" for the bullet to enter the chamber from the mag.

 

The Saiga mag....in recognition of the lack of a "ramp" or bullet guide....has a "bullet-guide" (of sorts) built into the front face of the magazine. The front of a Saiga mag is flush with the (high) mag body sidewalls. A regular AK-74 ( for 5.45)...or AK-47( for 7.62) mag....will have a "u" shaped cut-out in the front of the mag, to align-up with the gun's own bullet guide. The lower, horizontal part of the "U" cut-out, sits noticably lower than the mag's sidewall height. This "u" depression mates up to the gun's own bullet guide in front of the barrel chamber.

 

Here are some side-by-side pics of my Tapco mag ( with the "U" depression like the Combloc military surplus mags have)...and the Saiga mag ...shown side by side. My Saiga mag being photographed has a US-made (orange color) follower which makes seeing the difference between the 2 mags a bit more obvious.

 

When converting a Saiga to an "AK".....one normally adds the bullet guide.

 

P5030603.jpg

 

P5030604.jpg

 

P5030607.jpg

 

P5030608.jpg

 

 

.

Edited by IPSC45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

Tromix - Lead Delivery Systems
Dinzag Arms
CHAOS, Inc
Mississippi Auto Arms, Inc
Cobra's Custom
Carolina Shooters Supply
R & R Targets
LONE STAR ARMS
SGM Tactical
Mach 1 Arsenal
K-VAR
C&S Metall-Werkes
American Specialty Ammo
Csspecs Magazines
Phoenix Technology
Evlutionz LLC


  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...