robertparker 0 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Back story, I sent Esteban 2 saigs 12s in March 2010 with his promise that they would be completed within 3 months (full conversion for each including folding stock, 8" barrels, barrel ramping, full function testing, milled front handguard, new break). I paid 50% with the order. He called me 3 weeks later stating that the guns were nearly completed and he required the final 50% payment. He also talked me into having each one done in Gun Coat at a reduced cost. I paid the final 50% plus the additional for the Gun Coat and waited. I waited several months and after calling repeatedly I would occasionally receive an email or VM stating that nearly everything was done and that he was just waiting on the new handgaurd. This continued for about 18 months when I finally received one of my guns back. It did not have the folding stock, no break, the coating scraped off easily, poor quality welding, and the gun functioned worse then it did before I sent it to them. By worse I mean it failed to eject or cycle 100% of the time on either gas setting with both low power and high power shells. I emailed them and I believe Kelly called me back stating that he would take care of everything. This was in September I believe and nothing since then. So the facts are that Esteban lied about my guns being nearly completed (one was taken apart and the other not touched, I was told by Kelly). I have recently left messages (909-529-1628) and tried contacting him via his new website (http://www.ecmguns.com/) but have not heard back. Does anyone have any other contact information for him, including his full name? He currently has 2 registered SBS guns and after 2 years I consider it theft of both guns plus the $2500 or so I paid for the conversions. I would much prefer to get either my completed guns returned or my unconverter guns with my money returned. Failing that I fear that I must seek legal action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Sad to hear this. This is the first time I have ever heard of them doing bad work, but certainly not the first time I have heard about them dragging work out for years. NOT ONE TIME have I ever received anything back from any 'smith in the quoted time. NOT ONCE. It is usually easily 5-10 times as long as quoted. It is almost like they bullshit you just to get your stuff in their possession, so you can't send it somewhere else. After that, your stuff is money in the bank for them. They just have to finish it to get the remainder of the money. I view this as one of the worst things about the firearms industry, aside from the general "hack'smithing" that seems to be more common than not. I know where you are mentally, you just want your shit back done or not. I'm there too.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've never heard one good thing about them, I'd lawyer up and get my shit back. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robertparker 0 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 When I sent the one shotgun back due to the many issues with it I discussed with Kelly what needed to be corrected (pretty much everything). I think he left a message a month later saying they were working on both guns but that was the last I heard from them. I've talked to Esteban a half dozen times over these last two years and I am frankly tired of the excuses (had to go away for reserves, guys are out sick, bad business deal, couldn't get time on the CNC, etc), I just want what I paid for. I appreciate the replay and the information you provided, I will try to contact both of them today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ezra 8 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 New American way of doing business (and not just the gun business)..."Promise them the moon, and put off delivery as long as possible. Then put up just prior to court date when they sue you". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun12 205 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Wow, you guys must have a lot of patience. I seriously cannot see why it would take longer than 3 months to do that work. You should definitely get a lawyer and get back what is yours. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raleighsaiga 81 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The problem with Esteban isn't that he's always late in delivering guns. It's that he sells the project with a 50% deposit up front, stating that the remaining 50% isn't due until the gun is finished. He will then invoice customers for the second 50%, saying that their gun is either finished or nearly finished, and then they don't hear back from him after they've paid. He's on his third "it's different now" since things first started going downhill for him a few years ago. It would be funny if there weren't so many people getting screwed. Plus, I do feel bad that his lack of business acumen is such an obstacle to him being able to share his art. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wotan1105 7 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Yeah please avoid E-Tac and Cem like the plague. I "won" a spot in the saiga-12 forum lottery they did on this site like 3 years ago. Lucky me, $2500 later, sent up front, and 2 and a half years later I still never got my gun, from what I was told by all the emails and phone calls, it was re-welded 3 different times by different people, painted 3 different times. And after the first time he told me it was ready and I sent FFL info, he never sent it, gave me crap about his UPS account being frozen. 6 months later when it finally shipped my FFL had gone out of business, so I completely gave up on this joke of a company. Avoid them at all costs. They don't care if they steal your money or not, hell they're in Hawaii what are you going to do about it. Worst experience with any company in my entire life, by far. Edited March 8, 2012 by Wotan1105 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulie_Wallnutz 4 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 :popcorn: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 . . . And after the first time he told me it was ready and I sent FFL info, he never sent it, gave me crap about his UPS account being frozen. 6 months later when it finally shipped my FFL had gone out of business, so I completely gave up on this joke of a company. Avoid them at all costs. They don't care if they steal your money or not. . . Dude, based on what you wrote. . . you are telling us that you NEVER received your firearm and you make no mention of a reimbursement of your $2.5K. What was the end of your story with Esteban? Well Gary, did he get his money back? I'm no detective, but you seem to know exactly what's going. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Universal Stranger 1 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 He's on his third "it's different now" Exactly. I couldn't believe it when guys sent their guns to him after the first implosion. But guys did. Then he crashed again....and guys sent more guns in. Then it happened a third time, and still.......there were stupid ass mother fuckers that continued to send their guns in. I hate to say it, but if you're so fucking stupid to continue doing business with a guy that has fucked over customers for YEARS, you deserve it......dumbass. Don't worry....there will be a fourth and fifth "revival" so if your intelligence continues to spiral downward, you will have another chance to fuck yourself up the ass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I can only attest to what my experience has been with Esteban. The reason that I asked Woton1105 to provide the rest of his story, is he implies he received his money back. Read again... Woton implies no such thing. You implied that he got his money back, hence my original comment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Universal stranger... Troll... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people kept sending ETac guns because they didn't research the company before giving them business. I'd not only sue for my guns/refund, but also for any and all court costs and whatever else my lawyer could dream up. I loathe bad chronic bad customer service from any business. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armory 142 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 If you sued him, you would have to be present in court, in Hawaii, at least once, wouldn't you? Travel alone could eat up the lost gun value real quick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulie_Wallnutz 4 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Small claims court anyone? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 So it's a misleading business at best. I've seen some of the guns done by them, at least pics of them, and they were very nice looking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wotan1105 7 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Sorry guys don't come here very often as I lost interest in Saiga's thanks to me dealings with E-Tac... Dude, based on what you wrote. . . you are telling us that you NEVER received your firearm and you make no mention of a reimbursement of your $2.5K. What was the end of your story with Esteban? My story is true, and that's all there is to it. Never received my gun, never received a refund, asked multiple times over the years was always ignored and told theyd have it done soon. Even called me, multiple times, saying it was done, only to never hear anything back, and when checking again, would be told the welds needed to be redone, or it needed paint, or this, or that. The one time Cem did tell me it was done, and told me to provide FFL info, it never shipped, and they disappeared again. So yeah, after the last time, when they shipped it (probably a piece of crap anyway based on how long it took and how many people worked on it) and my FFL had gone out of business, I wasn't about to wait another fn year like last time trying to get these people FFL info. Makes me look like an asshole when you go into a gun shop, tell them you ordered a gun 3 years ago, paid for it, never got it.... then the fax number for E-Tac doesnt work or they dont respond, then they dont respond to emails, etc... So yeah, take you 3 damn months just to get FFL info to these people. AND LOL where did I ever imply I got my money back? I thought I said they were theives and they pretty much stole my money, because that is what they did. When you don't refund customers money when asked, when you don't show any interest in your products or quality of your products, you'd rather just blow smoke up peoples asses, I am done dealing with you. Small claims court? Possibly, but at this point 3 years later, gun only cost me less than a thousand dollars per year so far. Am not about to start putting money into an imaginary gun I'll never get, nor want at this point. I don't have the time or money to travel to Hawaii so what's the point. Just wanted to warn people not to deal with these liars and thieves again. And yeah, I emailed them threatening to report the gun stolen, etc.. THEY DO NOT CARE They did call me ASAP after I reported them to the better business bureau of Hawaii.... wanted that cleaned up quick, when it wasn't, they didn't care a bout that either. Like I said earlier, what am I going to do, fly to Hawaii to bitch... they know the answer to that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TARE 47 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 i'm no lawyer but its my understanding that when a group of individuals has a problem like yours they can form a class suit against the other party; however totals must exceed 5,000,000 but there must be a way for a group of you to address this similarly despite not reaching the 5000000 mark. I think that in the US the consumer is protected against such business practices and that a call to a lawyer in the know will give you the information you need to bring this into the proper light. Since there are a number of people involved, this might be something that could be brought forth as a joint effort against the company, this might keep this more in the realm of reality when it comes to your additional financial investment to right the wrongs. Typically this sort of talk would result in the company trying to settle out of court, and that may be your ticket. Nobody is untouchable unless you allow them to be Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armory 142 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Do we have any members or people you know in Hawaii that you would trust representing you via a POA (Power of Attorney) and pursue this over in the small claims court locally? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wotan1105 7 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Ah hell no, I AM DONE with this company. I emailed Cem personally last year and told him that much, told him "I give up", keep the gun it's yours, enjoy it. Do you think he emailed me back saying no no you paid I want to make sure you get this... of course not. Got no response whatsoever after that. So clearly, he, and this company have no integrity as far as I am concerned. They do not care about you or your guns, they just want your money and for you to cause as little problem for them as possible. I was nothing but patient, for that first 2 fucking YEARS always taking what they told me as truth, boy was I a fucking idiot. The only thing that really bugs me about it all, is I did not seek them out. They came on this website, had a business account at the time, and offered up a "contest" and made a few of us feel like "lucky" winners when Tromix had a year long wait list, etc.. And I knew at the time I ordered that it'd be at least a year before I saw a gun.... just didn't think it'd go 2 and a half years before I'd finally give up. It will be three full years since I sent them my $2500 coming up in June 2012. And I imagine with statute of limitations after three years I'd be lucky to have a case anyway (probably why they don't give two shits) And no need to apologize to me, I just get riled up when talking about this crap again. Yeah I may be protected.... if I start investing time and hundreds if not thousands of dollars to try and take these assholes to court, like that would stand up anyhow. They'd just make something up. Personally, I can't even imagine taking someones money, let along $2500 worth of it, and not looking back. Takes a special kind of person to do that you know. Edited March 22, 2012 by Wotan1105 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Hawaii is a very dangerous state, at any time lava could just come up out of the earth and set a certain business on fire... Act of God. Well we can all hope can't we? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Man, I'm glad I never sent a gun to Cem, he'd be in prison right now and I'd have a Saiga business in sunny Hawaii... psst, it's a FELONY to steal a firearm... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guns Are Great 140 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) LAWYER UP! Get your stuff back: money and guns. I am amazed at your patience. I could never agree to wait that long. If it takes more than 1 month for him to get to it they should shoot you a call/email and have 1-2 day ship it 3-4 days in advance. Waiting 6 months to a year or 2 is insane! Wait for the Govt. stamp maybe 6 months, never that long for the work! I think your better off just getting your own lic. and learning to do it yourself for that money and wait. I know that is a bit extreme, but 1-2 year wait, no way man! Edited March 23, 2012 by Guns Are Great Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 All one has to do is tell the 'smith that is working on his gun to stop all work, charge me for what you've done so far, and send me my property back. If that isn't achieved in a reasonable amount of time, that's theft... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Universal stranger... Troll... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people kept sending ETac guns because they didn't research the company before giving them business. I'd not only sue for my guns/refund, but also for any and all court costs and whatever else my lawyer could dream up. I loathe bad chronic bad customer service from any business. I could dream up a lot of shit. I am also disappointed in some forum business members like Mississippi Auto Arms who continue to sell his twister pucks... Edited March 23, 2012 by TO THE FLOOR 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'm so glad I work on my own stuff. The sad thing is that people are sending guns to etac and dreaming about how nice the weapon will be.... key word "dreaming". Money is gone, time is gone, and weapon is gone. Doesn't get much worse that that for a gun lover. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I would pitch in a few bucks for a legal fund. There has to be some kind of justice and consequences for what they are doing. Better yet, take donations for a fund to buy a round trip flight to HI. In return for members donations, all I would ask would be that you record the confrontation for posting in this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I would pitch in a few bucks for a legal fund. There has to be some kind of justice and consequences for what they are doing. Better yet, take donations for a fund to buy a round trip flight to HI. In return for members donations, all I would ask would be that you record the confrontation for posting in this thread. I'd throw in a few bucks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ghost44 7 Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 I am just wondering who is all still waiting on orders. I am still waiting would like find out who all is still waiting. Please PM me with info on your order and time spent waiting. No really personal info needed just basics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stilts911 7 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) RobertParker Sorry to hear that you have expirenced the same problems that alot of people have with E-Tac. It took me 2 years 2 months to get my Saiga 12 after paying for the work to be done. I filed a complaint with the State of Hawaii Dept of Commerce and Consumer Affairs http://hawaii.gov/dcca/rico/ and had forwarded a copy staight to Esteban which seemed to help light a fire under his a**. I lost track of all the excuses that came out of his mouth. Gary I am sorry to hear you still haven't gotten your rifle back. And before I had recieved my S12 Kelly mentioned mine was one of the last of the original orders left to be built. But wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't. Final Product turned out real nice, but wouldn't order from Cem again if my life counted on it. http://forum.saiga-1...750_2113152.jpg Edited March 30, 2012 by stilts911 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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