CBR Shadow 53 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've been looking for an AR for a long time and have finally narrowed it down to (3) rifles.. which should I get? Which would you go with? The main purpose of this rifle is range fun, HD or SHTF maybe, and just to have fun with. 1) Daniel Defense M4 V5 - $1366 2) Ruger SR556 (piston version) $1400 3) Rock River Arms Operator 2 Tactical on sale on their website for $1000 I want something that's going to last me a long time and shoot well. Please put the above (3) rifles in order of which you would go with considering the price of each. Thanks, Ryan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CBR Shadow 53 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Also it looks like Daniel Defense is having trouble keeping up with the demand - everyone is sold out! Found 1 place that does have them in stock though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doug Hartley 526 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I've been looking for an AR for a long time and have finally narrowed it down to (3) rifles.. which should I get? Which would you go with? The main purpose of this rifle is range fun, HD or SHTF maybe, and just to have fun with. 1) Daniel Defense M4 V5 - $1366 2) Ruger SR556 (piston version) $1400 3) Rock River Arms Operator 2 Tactical on sale on their website for $1000 I want something that's going to last me a long time and shoot well. Please put the above (3) rifles in order of which you would go with considering the price of each. Thanks, Ryan All three of the guns you mention will work. I have a Rock River and they are good guns. Daniel Defense has a good name from what I hear. I have not handled or seen the Ruger but they are pretty new to the AR game. I probably would buy the Rock River and spend the rest of the money on ammo and practice. Doug 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 to me they're all fine so I'd just go with the lowest price 1st, unless you want a piston for what ever reason then get the Ruger. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bravo One 5 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Sorry, I cannot provide any opinions on those manufacturers. However, I do have some research material if you are interested. http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?81462-So-you-want-to-buy-an-AR-15-huh The thread is four years old, but extremely informative. They do specifically touch on Rock River and Daniel Defense-- the AR models might be different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Honestly, I must say, spending over $1k for a range toy AR.....well, I got a bare bones DPMS for $580, and the Nikon M-223 scope for $450 and it is a very reliable Tack-Driver!! Never had any problems and I don't think any AR is going to get any more accurate. Definately sub-MOA grouping at 100yds. I got mine for the same "reason" being range fun, and I am set with great optics, for just over the $1k mark. The Only thing I may do is drop in a better trigger group. I may be a bit frugal, but I don't see how spending any more on the rifle will make any noticable difference in the end result, which is a bullseye at 200yds pretty easily. That said, given your options you showed, I say the piston driven one. I hear good things about them. Edited March 6, 2012 by RobRez 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
schultze13 354 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Of the 3 you asked about I would get the rockriver. I love ruger but I am not big on a piston AR if you want a piston buy a AK, Galil. or a FAL. I think a piston AR is trying to fix a problem that is not there if you take care of your AR and lube it a DI system AR is the best gun out there for living in the US. There is plenty of spare parts from the goverment federal and state as well as local PD's and you can get ammo and mags anywhere. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Rock River gets my vote. My gunsmith just got a Tactical Operator 2 in the shop for transfer today that I got to examine. Looks great and has an excellent reputation. They are about a month for wait-time on this model, not too bad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I agree that while the DD and Ruger excellent weapons, but I don't know that it is $400 better than the RRA. Remember that failures are likely going to be on the BCG (less than $150 to replace) and if you shoot the thing all the time... the barrel - $100-$400 to replace (depending on what you want most will be in the $150-$200 range). Cold Hammer forged is supposed to last longer, but get a Polygonal or melonite coating if you want extremely long barrel life. So if you buy the RRA assuming it will crap out on the springs, BCG and Barrel, you can buy replacements for the difference in the price DD or Ruger. Buy a spare DPMS or RRA Barrel (from $150-$200 on Midway - Chrome moly will easily last 6,000+ rounds without sacrificing 1.5 MOA or better accuracy), a spare spring kit ($40 at Midway) and a Spikes BCG ($110 shipped at AIM) along with an AR wrench ($30) and you will have a weapon system that will last through the apocalypse and all your ammo stockpile for cheaper than the other two. Remember that if you shoot 2,000+ rounds each weekend, the cost of ammo will far exceed your barrel and weapon costs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 they'd all do fine, piston or not. go with the one your gut tells you to. with anything else, you prolly wont feel as satisfied. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'd go for the RRA. Solid gun, good rep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The DEA went with RRAs. I own an Entry Tactical. No issues with it. I have a buddy (FFL) who cranks out lots of custom builds and he uses RRA lowers for the most part. I agree with Schultze in regards to piston ARs. The military has messed with them but never adopted them. The piston systems just add weight to a weapon that was designed to be lighter in weight. Direct Impingment ARs are like women. They run better wet. I went through one class when I was still Active Duty where we ran literally, a truckload of ammo through our Carbines in a five day timeframe. We were on the range for so many hours each day, we never cleaned them, just lubed the critical spots liberally and pressed on. DD makes good stuff but I think it is priced for the BARFCOM crowd who think the more money you spend on an AR, the more prestigious you are on the AR ladder. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tatonic 159 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I run a 20" Rock River stdA4 and can touch anything I want out to 400yd. It can do better, wish I could. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The thread is four years old, but extremely informative. They do specifically touch on Rock River and Daniel Defense-- the AR models might be different. Current version is https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html The writer got tired off all the whining by the marginal AR makers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The thread is four years old, but extremely informative. They do specifically touch on Rock River and Daniel Defense-- the AR models might be different. Current version is https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html The writer got tired off all the whining by the marginal AR makers. Rob, the writer, is also busy in competitions. He also wasn't concerned about which manufacturer whined the most about him publishing this detailed info either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bravo One 5 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The thread is four years old, but extremely informative. They do specifically touch on Rock River and Daniel Defense-- the AR models might be different. Current version is https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html The writer got tired off all the whining by the marginal AR makers. Thank you Kevin, great find. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Rock River. Son has one and it has great accuracy and reliability. I've heard of some carrier wear issues on the piston Ruger but never checked into it. Maybe they resolved it, I dunno. But I also agree that ARs don't need pistons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Are you dead set on a factory built gun? If not, you can save quite a bit of money by simply buying the complete upper and complete lower separately. Or even better yet, assembling your own lower (easy as pie) and buying a complete upper to slap on it, to save even more money. That would leave a lot of money left over for mags/ammo, when compared to your top end of $1400. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Are you dead set on a factory built gun? If not, you can save quite a bit of money by simply buying the complete upper and complete lower separately. Or even better yet, assembling your own lower (easy as pie) and buying a complete upper to slap on it, to save even more money. That would leave a lot of money left over for mags/ammo, when compared to your top end of $1400. +1. It would be even cheaper if you bought the complete upper, stripped lower, lower parts kit, etc, and assembled it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Over those 3 I'd go with DD. Or you could split the difference get a Colt for about a $1000. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 You can get a get good guns from anyone. The interesting question is how many of their guns are not good guns. Colt, LMT, & BCM (Bravo Company) are three that very rarely screw up a gun. Plus some of the boutique makers like Noveske. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Are you dead set on a factory built gun? If not, you can save quite a bit of money by simply buying the complete upper and complete lower separately. Or even better yet, assembling your own lower (easy as pie) and buying a complete upper to slap on it, to save even more money. That would leave a lot of money left over for mags/ammo, when compared to your top end of $1400. +1. It would be even cheaper if you bought the complete upper, stripped lower, lower parts kit, etc, and assembled it. I concur. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Spikes would be the cheap route if you want the most mil-spec for the money. However, I still believe RRA is a good choice. Building one is definitely the way to go to save money! I am working on a sub $500 total build using a New Frontier Armory polymer lower, ESS Solution Barrel, Aero Precision upper and Spikes BCG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 You can get a get good guns from anyone. The interesting question is how many of their guns are not good guns. Colt, LMT, & BCM (Bravo Company) are three that very rarely screw up a gun. Plus some of the boutique makers like Noveske. Of all of those, best bang for the buck is BCM. Pun intended. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Spikes would be the cheap route if you want the most mil-spec for the money. However, I still believe RRA is a good choice. Building one is definitely the way to go to save money! I am working on a sub $500 total build using a New Frontier Armory polymer lower, ESS Solution Barrel, Aero Precision upper and Spikes BCG. What caliber AR are you using with that plastic lower? I'd be careful if anything more powerful than a .22 LR. 5.56 generates waaay more pressure than a plastic pistol does. A kaboom in a plastic AR could be an attention getter. I've heard lots of bad shit about Plum Crazy lowers, not anything on the New Frontier one though. Not that they cause kabooms but the fact they get sloppy in the takedown and pivot pin areas with use. With all the photos of kabooms shredding aluminum lowers and uppers, I could only imagine what that piece of plastic will do if a catestrophic malfunction happens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I've sold a few RRA's and I can tell you guys, they are quality. Easily on par with the Colt's. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mgconnor13 206 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'd buy and upper and assemble the lower. It's cheaper and you can coustimize your lower right off the bat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anthony1 5 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 l would get a colt for around 1k thats EASILY the best thing going now. Out of the ones you listed l would get the DD and not even consider the other two. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CBR Shadow 53 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 ok so there are a lot of responses saying to buy the lower/upper seperately so I'm trying to compare buying Spikes Tactical lower/upper to buying a Daniel Defense complete rifle. Here's what I came up with... Lower: $364 http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/spider-bullet-lower-w-standard-kit-black-ctr-stock-moe-grip-p-590.html Upper: $758 http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/upper-556-16-mid-le-w12-bar-rail-p-684.html Total: $1152 Is anything else needed for the completed gun besides what is listed above? I guess a magazine but those are cheap. Then I'd have to pay the $30 FFL fee but again, negligable. I found the Daniel Defense M4 V5 for $1250 which would include shipping & transfer fee. Is the Daniel Defense the superior weapon by $100? Also I assume the DD will have a higher resale value if I ever decided to sell it, right? It seems like the DD is the clear winner here, but like I said I'm new to AR's so I may be missing something, or the barrel/upper on the Spikes might be superior and I'm missing that or something. Both the DD and the Spikes parts are backordered currently. Thoughts? Also, why is everyone out of AR's? I've called tons of dealers about Daniel Defense, RRA, Spikes, etc and all are on backorder. Is there an AR run that I'm unaware of? haha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Spikes would be the cheap route if you want the most mil-spec for the money. However, I still believe RRA is a good choice. Building one is definitely the way to go to save money! I am working on a sub $500 total build using a New Frontier Armory polymer lower, ESS Solution Barrel, Aero Precision upper and Spikes BCG. What caliber AR are you using with that plastic lower? I'd be careful if anything more powerful than a .22 LR. 5.56 generates waaay more pressure than a plastic pistol does. A kaboom in a plastic AR could be an attention getter. I've heard lots of bad shit about Plum Crazy lowers, not anything on the New Frontier one though. Not that they cause kabooms but the fact they get sloppy in the takedown and pivot pin areas with use. With all the photos of kabooms shredding aluminum lowers and uppers, I could only imagine what that piece of plastic will do if a catestrophic malfunction happens. I would first say to check out New Frontier Armory's torture tests on their website. Not 100% conclusive, but enough for me to invest the equivalent cost of what just a FCG and cheap stock assembly would cost for a complete lower. I have seen the cracked Plum Lower pics (1 of 10's of thousands sold) and they replaced it for free under warranty. NFA is using a different material than Plum that is supposed to have more fiberglass reinforcement. My Dad has a Plum Crazy and it functions great with a 7.62x39 upper and lightens that rifle up extremely well. I plan on beating the shit out of this setup in 5.56 to see if it fails. This is not going to be my gold plated double secret mil-spec horsey engraved fanboy show and tell gun that costs more than I make in 3 months, but rather an experiment to see what a sub $500 AR can do to prove that AR's don't turn to dust after the first round just because it doesn't say Colt on the side or cost a small fortune. BTW, I have more AK's than I can carry if I need a reliable battle rifle for TEOTWAWKI, so don't worry about me! I appreciate the concern for my safety regarding Kabooms, but I have seen these pics that circulate the web usually in threads and posts by people that typically despise the weapon in the pic. Using shitty or double charged ammo is usually the cause for these KB's... most people don't want to flaunt their idiocy when posting those pics by fessing up that they were using Uncle Bubba Jim's super magnum reloads with the wrong powder, over-compressed bullet or a double charge in them. Naysayers are screaming on a lot of threads (especially the "your AR sucks if it doesn't cost as much as mine" forums) that polymer has no place as a material for an AR lower (while people said the same thing about "Mattel stocks" on the AR, and about "Tupperware Pistols" with Glocks). But I think if the Akdal MKA 1919 is a polymer receiver that holds up to high brass 12 gauge recoil, then I can probably trust that the poly AR lowers will hold up under the recoil of a .223. Yes the pressure is still higher on the .223/5.56, but the AR is a straight line system where the lower only encircles this line at the buffer tube retainer and does not contact any moving parts other than the FCG. The majority of the stress from 55,000 PSI to 62,000 PSI (5.56) is going to be contained in the BCG, barrel and upper receiver until the ejection when a small fraction of that will then be transferred to the buffer tube assembly. I feel that polymer lowers have promise and if it turns out to be junk and not covered by warranty, then I am only out $100 bucks and can salvage the FCG and stock assembly and get some of that money back if I want to sell those items or save them as spare parts for future builds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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