Is MSA MIA?

[ozziemo27 0]

Well guys, got my MSA AR-15 magazine adapter Friday. FINALLY. Came with a very poorly done spotty matte black spraypaint job on the body of the adapter. The levers look to be a smooth glossy finish which is showed on the entire unit per the picture on MSA's website.

In addition to that, I'm pretty sure it doesn't function properly. The right sight mag release lever is difficult to push in and the action of it is very gritty (I assume due to the paintjob) and the magazine won't go into the adapter without pressing the mag release. Kind of defeats one of the advantages of quick mag changes if you have to press the mag release button to insert the magazine. The magazine used was a standard USGI General Stamping 30 rounder. I decided to post this on the forum as my email was never returned before and you seem to respond to here. Hopefully I can get it replaced with what I paid for. You would think after waiting 1 month and 3 weeks I would have received a BETTER than advertised product rather than a $79 mess. Here is a picture of what I received, shows the awful paintjob pretty well.

Edited April 14, 2012 by ozziemo27

[avnate 335]

Anodize isn't paint. It's a reaction process of electrical charge and chemicals. I wonder if some chemical reaction happened from residue introduced on the last batch. White isn't even a color to anodize that I'm aware of. Blue, red and gold yes.... But white I am at a loss. Does it rub off? The adapter can still be painted to match the rifle.... most DIYers use grill paint to do so. But I'm still wondering about this white residue... hadn't seen it before. I wonder if there was something on the fingers of the shop workers. I'm calling the anodize shop tomorrow to figure it out.

 

The bodies are shot blasted to allow for a matt finish. The gritty action is a product of that, but that smoothers out after use.. A coil can be taken out of the spring to reduce the spring rate. Some like it stiff some don't so I leave an extra coil just for this.

[ozziemo27 0]

Anodize isn't paint. It's a reaction process of electrical charge and chemicals. I wonder if some chemical reaction happened from residue introduced on the last batch. White isn't even a color to anodize that I'm aware of. Blue, red and gold yes.... But white I am at a loss. Does it rub off? The adapter can still be painted to match the rifle.... most DIYers use grill paint to do so. But I'm still wondering about this white residue... hadn't seen it before. I wonder if there was something on the fingers of the shop workers. I'm calling the anodize shop tomorrow to figure it out.

 

The bodies are shot blasted to allow for a matt finish. The gritty action is a product of that, but that smoothers out after use.. A coil can be taken out of the spring to reduce the spring rate. Some like it stiff some don't so I leave an extra coil just for this.

 

How and when can I get it replaced? It won't accept a magazine without pressing the mag release. The finish acts just like matte black spraypaint, whether it is or isn't. It doesn't wipe off.

Edited April 15, 2012 by ozziemo27

[Foxtrot Oscar 37]

You need to wear it in first... how much force are you using to insert the mags?

 

@MSA is there any way to smooth out or polish the release lever if I wanted to?

I'm sure it'll work great as is, once I have it installed. I'm no special forces high speed low drag operator like some other people in this thread, and have no need to reload in less than 2.2 seconds, but trying to disengage the lever with the right side seems a little gritty.

Edited April 15, 2012 by MolonLabe

[avnate 335]

@ Ozzie - Keep in mind not all USGI spec mags are the same. Which is why we use Magpul and recommend them as we list them in the documentation provided. There are manufacturing tolerances from mag maker to maker in the AR world. More than likely this is what you're seeing. The adapter was designed to be fitted to your personal needs. Meaning you can trim and adjust accordingly. PM me your order info. I have a batch in anodize this week I am waiting on. We made 50 so I'll get you an RMA out of that batch and put in a weaker spring rate for you.

 

@MolonLabe - yes just knock the punch pin out and polish as you please. This is the Saiga platform.... modifying and adapting is what we do.

[ozziemo27 0]

@ Ozzie - Keep in mind not all USGI spec mags are the same. Which is why we use Magpul and recommend them as we list them in the documentation provided. There are manufacturing tolerances from mag maker to maker in the AR world. More than likely this is what you're seeing. The adapter was designed to be fitted to your personal needs. Meaning you can trim and adjust accordingly. PM me your order info. I have a batch in anodize this week I am waiting on. We made 50 so I'll get you an RMA out of that batch and put in a weaker spring rate for you.

 

@MolonLabe - yes just knock the punch pin out and polish as you please. This is the Saiga platform.... modifying and adapting is what we do.

 

The USGI mag fits the adapter, it just doesn't slide in without reefing on it or pressing in the mag release button. If you could exchange this one for a properly anodized one with an action that moves smoothly and more easily and excepts a magazine without problems, I'd appreciate it. PM Sent.

[Gunsotsu 2]

Got it. Same as ozziemo27, same problem. And this while using PMags.

 

I'm done. To all that stumble upon this thread in the future, stay away for Magnolia State Armory/Texas AK Designs.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Gunsotsu

[avnate 335]

Got it. Same as ozziemo27, same problem. And this while using PMags.

 

I'm done. To all that stumble upon this thread in the future, stay away for Magnolia State Armory/Texas AK Designs.

 

Replied to your other post. Let me know

[aknoobie 0]

MSA is BACK!! I ordered 10 adapters from Nate a little over 10 weeks ago and they arrived as promissed. Over the past week or so I talked to Will (shes new @ Texas AK Designs) and she kept me up to date with the shipping information. She sent a tracking number the day the adapters shipped and two days later tada adapters arrived (angelic music sounded as I opened the package). I encourage anyone who has an order question to call Will and let her explain whats going on and ease any worries or concerns. But I have to say she is new to the company so please afford her the benifit of the doubt and I know youll hang the phone up with a better peace of mind. Now back to the product I have to say as far as quality this adapter is heads and shoulders above Renegadebuck's. Ive seen Renegades and its a little more crude than MSA/TAKDs adapter. Now thats not to say each adapter doesnt have its place but for a more semi/perminate solution to the magazine problem MSA is the way to go. I will definatly order from Nate again and highly recommend them to anybody. For those who place an order for an adapter just have a little patience. I payed him with a money order (not a credit card like most) and waited my turn. I called Nate several times and allowed adapters allocated for me to be shipped out to others who were frustrated at waiting 2 to 4 weeks for an adapter and openly harsh to him on forums. Seeing as I payed him in a MO, Nate could have easily taken the money and never heard from him again. However, he always made an effort to contact me and reasure my worries that he would follow through on his word. And he did! And as a side note we as a society have been ruined by instant gratification i.e. shipping so fast there is a package at your door step before an internet order is completed. Anything worth having is worth the wait and I promise you this adapter is worth the wait.

[Zambidis 90]

I'd comment on my experience but I received a PM from MSA stating that he, as a paying business member, would asked to have me banned from the forums if I post about my experiences with his company.

 

It is good so see that some new member decided to join just to make a post about being taken care of, bash a competitors product, and heap praise on MSA. If I were more cynical I might think that odd.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Zambidis

[avnate 335]

@ Ozzie - Keep in mind not all USGI spec mags are the same. Which is why we use Magpul and recommend them as we list them in the documentation provided. There are manufacturing tolerances from mag maker to maker in the AR world. More than likely this is what you're seeing. The adapter was designed to be fitted to your personal needs. Meaning you can trim and adjust accordingly. PM me your order info. I have a batch in anodize this week I am waiting on. We made 50 so I'll get you an RMA out of that batch and put in a weaker spring rate for you.

 

@MolonLabe - yes just knock the punch pin out and polish as you please. This is the Saiga platform.... modifying and adapting is what we do.

 

The USGI mag fits the adapter, it just doesn't slide in without reefing on it or pressing in the mag release button. If you could exchange this one for a properly anodized one with an action that moves smoothly and more easily and excepts a magazine without problems, I'd appreciate it. PM Sent.

 

I'm already fixing this.... A new adapter was built with a weaker spring rate and tested.

 

 

 

Now to address those who are new to the AR-AK cross platform as it seems we have some people with expectations that are not satisfied. Without going into AR Mag 101 class. I see a brief course is needed as this is an AK forum and most are not familiar with the AR platform as they are with the AK.

 

Not all AR mags are alike. You will find AR mags vary in width. If you need proof go buy a caliper and hit up the gun show. It is because of this width variation not all mags function alike in the adapter (this includes PMag). Metal mags are generaly thinner from .84" to poly mags up to .90" in width is the average variation. IF a metal mag is used a higher spring rate is needed. This ensures there is no accidental release of the mag due to more room for the mag and less for the catch to hold. On the flip side. If the mag is a PMag it is wider and less spring rate is needed to fully lock up the mag, as there is no distance gaps to compensate for. This is why you may have a hard time inserting the mag the other is because of friction as detailed below..... One final detail to also mention. When the adapter is not installed in the rifle you may not have proper leverage to release the mag. When you have a firm grasp on a grip it adds to the amount of force you apply to the release mech. This is leverage combined with body mechanics. This allows you to multiply the amount of force and release the mag.

 

About poly mags and friction.... No two are alike (includes PMags) These are made from molds and molds wear causing tolerance variations as well. Every PMag has a mold stamp to show this and when it was produced. MSA recomends PMag as they are the best in the industry in AR Mags and performance reliability. Since we are not discussing AR Mag spring rates I'll just mention a good follower and spring is what make a reliable mag and Magpul is the leader in this catagory.

Because the finish is shot blasted then anodized it can be hard to insert a new mag. THIS WILL WEAR IN. Like everything with poly mags they get better with time. Which brings me to the "Can I polish this to help?" question. Yes you can... because this is your adapter fitted to your rifle we encourage you to tweak and adjust to your taste.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I'd comment on my experience but I received a PM from MSA stating that he, as a paying business member, would asked to have me banned from the forums if I post about my experiences with his company.

 

It is good so see that some new member decided to join just to make a post about being taken care of, bash a competitors product, and heap praise on MSA. If I were more cynical I might think that odd.

 

there is a feedback forum.. the vendors "paid for" forum space is NOT the place to vent..

[avnate 335]

I'd comment on my experience but I received a PM from MSA stating that he, as a paying business member, would asked to have me banned from the forums if I post about my experiences with his company.

 

It is good so see that some new member decided to join just to make a post about being taken care of, bash a competitors product, and heap praise on MSA. If I were more cynical I might think that odd.

 

This was my PM.

 

"Thought you were polietly asked to refrain from any MSA posts. I know you don't like me, I get it. If there are issues I will fix them. If you start trolling again, making it harder for me to do so, I will ask to have you banned. There is no sense to start this again."

 

I'll leave it up to the forum members to decide. I call it giving you a choice not to be a troll. GunPal sucks..... I think everyone found out the hard way. Including myself.

 

As far as attacking the new guy... had you read the begining of the thread he was calling me out too. You ...Cynical? That's laughable.....

[aknoobie 0]

I'd comment on my experience but I received a PM from MSA stating that he, as a paying business member, would asked to have me banned from the forums if I post about my experiences with his company.

 

It is good so see that some new member decided to join just to make a post about being taken care of, bash a competitors product, and heap praise on MSA. If I were more cynical I might think that odd.

If you looked back a whole page you would see my first post where I was not able to contact Nate through email and posted on here my situation (which is what this thread was started for). You can be as cynical as you want however this forum is for the improvement and education of firearm owners... To better ourselves. There really isnt a place for cynical BS. And yea for a time I had a hell of a time getting a hold of Nate but we talked like ADULTS and solved whatever problems we had.

[Zambidis 90]

the vendors "paid for" forum space is NOT the place to vent..

 

Is it permissible to discuss a saiga .223 product and experience with it in the saiga .223 forum? Or am I to understand that if a business is a forum member they are beyond critique on this forum? If that is the rule then that is the rule and I suppose forum members can just learn the hard way until he falls behind on his dues again.

 

I call it giving you a choice not to be a troll.

 

Trolling is defined as follows: Posting derogatory messages about sensitive subjects on newsgroups and chat rooms to bait users into responding. http://www.pcmag.com...i=53181,00.asp# (emphasis added).

 

Trolling would be if I posted things about your woeful business practices, emotional breakdowns, etc just to get rise and response out of you. I have never done that and have no intent to.

 

Disagreeing over what "being on the right track" means is not trolling it is discussion. It was my contention that they type of conduct that was mentioned in the MSA MIA thread is not indicative of what I would call "being on the right track." More like more of the same. You, and anyone else ,are free to disagree. That is the beauty of discussion. I do understand why you seem not to want it discussed though.

 

Sharing my negative experience with your business is not trolling when it is merely offered as warning to others who may not have been on this form for the last few years and thus not aware of MSA history. Like you say they are free to use google to access threads from a number of forums about it and decide for themselves. However, without a helpful heads up they may not realize they should look.

 

I understand that it is easy to label something trolling rather contesting it with reason. For example, it is much easier to say one is trolling than to argue that not communicating with customers, missing shipping dates, delivering poorly finished and/or not properly functioning products,is being on the right track. I'd go with the trolling accusation to, no matter how baseless it was.

 

You can lobby for me to be banned all you like. If I am banned it will do little for you. Your own actions cause threads like this to keep popping up again and again. Further, your reputation is all over the net on forums where you cannot pay to have your past, and apparently present, conduct suppressed. I'm sure you will still get some orders though. After all people order from Hess and did from Ceiner as well, at least until the feds charged him for conduct that is strikingly similar to what has been alleged in this thread.

[avnate 335]

Zambidis

 

Yes, I have had and recently had issues putting out product in timely manner. For whatever reason. GPal failing, Anodizer issue, production scheduling, Internet connectivity and so on. Dosen't deter me from tring to fix and improve on that. Which is what I am doing with the addition of more people..... Better internet site software and so on. What you fail to mention it was a one man show for a while which caused these issues. Now that things have grown I added more staff and this will be just another chapter in the past.

 

As far as product quality issues. This is a new one as far as I see. If there is a residue that is showing up that I am addressing with the plating company. But that will be addressed. As far as not properly functioning..... this to is new. Nothing has changed with the design in over two years. In that time since there has been numerous positive reviews of those who got, installed and loved the adapter.

[Makc 64]

I am not defending anyone, or taking anyone's side.

 

Personal issues, business issues, what-ever-other-kind of issues - things happen in life. We all know it.

 

Delay in shipment - yes.

 

Quality issues - yes.

 

Are the issues being worked on to be fixed - yes.

 

Is your money safe when you order with CC - heck yea!

 

 

 

Zambidis, every couple of post right after MSA's posts comes your post with some negativity form you towards MSA - you are trolling, brother!

 

Stop aggravating the situation even further and let Nathan divert his attention to fixing the issues and mishaps for the customers - I would much rather see him do that, and see another customer get a tracking number and receive his order, than see Nathan reply to your interpretation of "trolling vs. discussion" definitions.

 

I hope we are on the same page on this one!

[G O B 3,516]

I do not have a dog in this fight, BUT- I'm with Juggs and MAKC.

 

There are 2 threads going on, this one and the one about our 'friend' in Hawaii.

 

The measure of a man can only be taken when you see how they handle adversity, a good man makes it right - a weak man makes excuses.

 

 

In this thread I see a MAN standing up and overcoming adversity, working hard to "make it right".

 

In the other thread we have a man who makes excuses, false promises, and runs away from his responsibilities.

[notofnow 5]

Got my order but it was just a rebuild kit for an adapter i had ordered and got about a year ago. The kit itself looks and works fine and for those of you who ask why i need a rebuild kit. I sanded the inside of the adapter because some of my usgi mags were a little tough to get in and out of the mag once it was mounted on my saiga. Dummy me sanded a little to much without realizing that i was also sanding down the mag catch itself.

[Nyhil1 0]

Hello

I placed an order for the adapter om Mar 19, I received confirmation and my card was billed. I have tried contacting both MSA sales and Nathan May to get any info on shipping, but have not received any reply. I understand from the forum chatter that their is a back log. All I ask is to be infromed of a possible shipping date.

[avnate 335]

PM me your order number.

 

The MSA site is no more as the new site is up at Texas AK Designs. Everything redirects including mail. The mail redirect has been a complete disaster and cause of much grief over the past few weeks. Sales@texasakdesigns.com gets Will directly and she does respond to what she gets.

 

As far as shipping logs. The current batch being assembled will carry all order to current. Each are going to be inspected before shipping for this color turning issue or "ashing". We use the same plating company as another Texas AR company and expect that to have been an isolated event but will make sure before shipping this batch.

[burnpgh 4]

Received my mag adaptor last week.

 

Pleased -

Was received

Machining looks very good - a quality base product

Has not been installed yet but look to be as simple as advertised

 

Not pleased -

Took a good while to receive... I expected this, but after a month one still gets fidgety having shelled out $80.

The finish was rather poor. I don't know about "residue" as the blotchy parts look to me as bare aluminum. I feel like paint or a light powder coating may be more consistent batch to batch than this anodizing but its not a deal breaker.

Gritty movement - not a big issue. I put a drop of oil here and there and spent a minute pushing the levers in and out. Smooth as butter now.

Heavy spring in levers

 

Suggestions -

To MSA - Ditch the anodizing. Provide the adaptors in bare metal and allow the customer to finish as desired for a slightly lesser cost or switch finish. The anodizing seems to be problematic and you clearly wish to develope a superior product and service.

Reasses your order process. Either 1 - change order status to out of stock unless you have units immediately available to ship that havent been promised 2 - Have all orders as back orders 3- ptions 1 or 2 with the additional provision of not charging customer cards until the order is about to ship.

To Customers - Don't be afraid to do business with MSA but be prepared for patience. Expect (as of now) a high quality product with a poor finish. Be prepared to dab some oil here and there and to cut a coil out of the spring if it will be more to your taste. And don't pick nits because you got pissy waiting.

 

 

Worth the wait, worth the money

[avnate 335]

Received my mag adaptor last week.

 

Pleased -

Was received

Machining looks very good - a quality base product

Has not been installed yet but look to be as simple as advertised

 

Not pleased -

Took a good while to receive... I expected this, but after a month one still gets fidgety having shelled out $80.

The finish was rather poor. I don't know about "residue" as the blotchy parts look to me as bare aluminum. I feel like paint or a light powder coating may be more consistent batch to batch than this anodizing but its not a deal breaker.

Gritty movement - not a big issue. I put a drop of oil here and there and spent a minute pushing the levers in and out. Smooth as butter now.

Heavy spring in levers

 

Suggestions -

To MSA - Ditch the anodizing. Provide the adaptors in bare metal and allow the customer to finish as desired for a slightly lesser cost or switch finish. The anodizing seems to be problematic and you clearly wish to develope a superior product and service.

Reasses your order process. Either 1 - change order status to out of stock unless you have units immediately available to ship that havent been promised 2 - Have all orders as back orders 3- ptions 1 or 2 with the additional provision of not charging customer cards until the order is about to ship.

To Customers - Don't be afraid to do business with MSA but be prepared for patience. Expect (as of now) a high quality product with a poor finish. Be prepared to dab some oil here and there and to cut a coil out of the spring if it will be more to your taste. And don't pick nits because you got pissy waiting.

 

 

Worth the wait, worth the money

 

 

Thank you for the unbiased review. All are valid points. I think the changes that I have been trying to put in place will make it much better for everyone. Once Will is better acclimated to the business she will take customer calls. I believe this will help greatly in all areas. When MSA first started I was on the phone 24-7 and had great customer satisfaction. Problem lately is I have to now work a 45hr week full time and leaves me little to no time for the important things. I see this as a huge issue and is my main focus. I want the customers to know we are going to always do our best to make sure they are taken care of. Reguardless of past issues I have always focused on making things right and getting on the right path to make this company what is was set achieve.

 

About the anodize company... it is the same that does work for La Rue Tactical, a very high end AR manufacturer. As stated. I think this was a fluke as I have used them since production was moved to texas two years ago. I still don't have a clear answer to what happened but I believe a worker had a chemical residue that was on their gloves that somehow transferred to the finish of the adapters. Causing the chemical process to be tainted

[avnate 335]

The mystery residue has been discovered. It's a buildup of sealer. This will rub off over time.... or can be scrubbed off with a hard toothbrush and water. Keep in mind the surface is textures and it may take a few minutes to scrub.