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FTE With 4 Functional Gas Ports


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I just bought a brand new Saiga 12 and it heartbreakingly fails to eject every shot. On setting 2 it stove pipes, on 1, the shell won't even make it out enough to stove pipe and just get cycled back into the breech. I've put about 300 rounds through it. Mostly Federal bulk from Walmart, some Estate Heavy Game Load, and some Winchester AA (50 rds of cheap Fiocci bird shot too).

 

I get the same results on the stock 5 round mag, a SGM 10 rounder, and the Promag 20 round drum.

 

It will eject a shell no problem if there is no magazine inserted.

 

The first time I took it out, I thought I had it broken in, I put about 200 rounds through it and towards the end it ejected every shot for the last 30. Then I cleaned it and it went back to no ejection. Perhaps the piston is too small and the tolerances are too wide? It slides out of the gas block without any effort. Maybe the gunk from putting ~170 rounds through it made a better seal? That would be ironic if the fouling made it work better. I did scrub it with a wire brush but I really doubt that did it. I'm desperate!

 

I have ordered the MD arms V plug and the MD arms booster piston in hopes that they will do something but I'm skeptical.

 

I'm so close to boring out the 4 gas holes to a 3/32 as I've read someone else do, as well as grinding down the bottom of the bolt and smoothing the angles of the bolt carrier and hammer but I'm terrified as I have no experience with metal working except for general shop class 14 years ago (where we did no grinding or drilling) and spare parts are hard to come by in case I grind/bore wrong. Most of these suggestions are from this post:

 

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=223576

 

I have scoured FTE posts and they almost all point to misaligned or missing holes in the gas block but I am blessed (for the good that it does) to have 4 holes that are aligned under the hole in the block.

 

Please help me get my beautiful gun functioning!

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My 4 port gun had all ports aligned well and open. but none were proper size. So you may have to still drill those ports! you need to atleast properly check them. Easy to drill the holes. Search for this thread tutorial on the web or this forum.

 

Modification to repair FTE issues on Saigas with blocked gas ports

Started by JeffD, Jan 06 2009 07:58 AM

Edited by Guns Are Great
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How hard is it to drill out the holes bigger?

 

Is it as simple as drilling down into the hole at the right angle?

 

Any special preps or anything?

 

Thanks for the help guys!

 

Its not that hard. Drift the pins out, tap the gas block off then check the ports for angle and match it the best you can with a hand drill try not to hit the barrel on the inside after you clear the ports. Tap the Block back on and re-pin after ensuring correct alignment. Look for the thread about removing the gasblock.

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Yeah removing the two cross pins will probably be the hardest part of the operation. You will need to support the gas block on a hard surface, as the pins will be hard to remove. Also, the spring loaded pin for the gas plug is held captive by the upper pin, so be careful when you drive this out, as you will be releasing the spring tension on it. Then, you can tap the gas block off pretty easily.

 

DSCN0319.jpg

 

DSCN0328.jpg

 

DSCN0334.jpg

 

DSCN0332.jpg

 

DSCN0338.jpg

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Then, you can tap the gas block off pretty easily.

 

Only on about 10% of the guns can you tap the gas block off "pretty easy." The rest will take a hydraulic press or possibly a serious beat-down if the press fit is not very tight.....and some won't even budge with a 20 ton press on them and you will need to heat it up as well. I have also had some where the gas block would just slide off the barrel with hand pressure. So we have a tolerance spread here of 20+ tons to "zero resistance" in order to remove the gas block.

 

Of course if you only work on one gun, you would assume "they are all like that", but this is the Saiga we're talking about here.

 

When you're posting build tips to other users, you should probably preface all posts with "When, I worked on my ONE gun................"

Or "On the TWO guns that I worked on..........." Otherwise the reader is going to assume that his gun is going to be exactly like yours and we all know that is highly unlikely.

 

Tony

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Ok, enlarge the holes it is I guess...

 

Using JeffD's thread (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/33836-modification-to-repair-fte-issues-on-saigas-with-blocked-gas-ports/), I have been able to remove the two retaining pins from the gas block (thanks for the tip about holding on to the gas plug pin), I have not yet tried to remove the block itself, I still need to get a shelf bracket. I hope I can tap it off short of using 20+ tons of force!

 

So to drill out the holes, I don't need a drill press or anything, just poke it with the bit and start drilling, being careful to not hit the other side of the barrel?

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Then, you can tap the gas block off pretty easily.

 

Only on about 10% of the guns can you tap the gas block off "pretty easy." The rest will take a hydraulic press or possibly a serious beat-down if the press fit is not very tight.....and some won't even budge with a 20 ton press on them and you will need to heat it up as well. I have also had some where the gas block would just slide off the barrel with hand pressure. So we have a tolerance spread here of 20+ tons to "zero resistance" in order to remove the gas block.

 

Of course if you only work on one gun, you would assume "they are all like that", but this is the Saiga we're talking about here.

 

When you're posting build tips to other users, you should probably preface all posts with "When, I worked on my ONE gun................"

Or "On the TWO guns that I worked on..........." Otherwise the reader is going to assume that his gun is going to be exactly like yours and we all know that is highly unlikely.

 

Tony

 

Mr. Rumore,

 

Yes, this is my first Saiga 12 conversion. As a matter of fact, I haven't even fired it yet, which may (or may not) be the reason why my gas block came off "pretty easily". I stripped it down to the bare receiver right out of the box. Yeah maybe I should've clarified that my gun was unfired. Yes, when I posted my response with the pictures I was referring to MY gun in particular; my post was not meant to be indicative of Saiga 12's in general, and I am pretty sure that the readers here have the intelligence to figure that out. IMHO the reason for this forum is for members to share their experiences with their weapons, and there is a lot of really great knowledge here. I am aware of your experiences with the Saiga 12, and with guns in general. You are highly respected in the gun community, and your reputation as a craftsman precedes you, and I commend you for that. While I do appreciate your clarification on my one and only gas block removal, I DON'T appreciate your advice on how to post responses, and I reject your notion on prefacing my posts as you suggested. I am not sure what prompted you to single me out, as I haven't done anything different from anyone else here, and I am highly offended that a member of your standing would criticize another member in this fashion. From what I have read so far (and I have read quite a bit), the readers here seem to have done some research before buying these shotguns, and seem to be intelligent enough to know that all Saiga's are not the same, and that everyone has different experiences with their one (or two, or more) weapons, and that your notion of me having to preface my post with "When, I worked on my ONE gun..." so that the reader won't be confused, is totally silly at best. Instead of saying that the gas block can be tapped off pretty easily, I should've said that MINE came off pretty easily, and that YOURS may or may not do the same...whatever.

 

Have a nice day.

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Hello

 

I've only enlarged gas ports on one of my S-12's. The easiest and safest means i found to do it was by using a 4/0 taper reamer to gradually and manually enlarge the ports.

Mine seemed to be semi-plugged with some nondescript swarf, not really drilled undersize, so they reamed out really easily.

 

YMMV....

 

-guido

 

"God Loves Liberty"

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I give the gas block a couple good whacks from each side with a rubber mallet to break it loose. They always come of fairly easily. Maybe I've been very lucky.... ;)

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Before going through the trouble of enlarging your ports why not read up on the polishing the bolt and carrier tutorials? If it seems out of ylur skill set you could always take the safe route and have it done pro. OR just go through the paces by hand with sand paper starting at 120 grit and working your way finer to 600. Just knock off the factory finish. And lightly sand the rails with some 200grit. Just be sure to flush it all off with oil and lube well. If this improves your issues then its highly likely a proper polish will remedy the issue. If it doesnt then you havent hurt anything and only spent a few buck on sand paper.

 

*be sure to get automotive or wet sanding paper. And keep your sand paper well oiled it will work more effectively and last longer.*

reporting will solve your issue..but uf your not confudent in your skills or lack equipment this is another route worth looking at.

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I definitely see Tony's point, b/c saiga's QC is a total crap-shoot. However, I also think people realize most folks are speaking specifically to their own limited # of DIY firearm experiences. When vendors speak on the other hand, I think members see it as more of guideline as to what one can expect b/c they handle large #'s of firearms. Due to this they (vendors) should clarify as to the variability of specs, tools, and procedures often encountered in their trade. Vendors should share experiences in a way that garners support and business. Business whether fixing mistakes, which often pays more than fresh untouched guns is still business. So either way they benefit.

 

Forum posts often sound harsh whether intentional or not. However, maybe Tony was warning others about possible difficulties that can be encountered rather than singling you out. Atleast I would hope so. Either way, tunnelrat, It should be appreciated/noted that you took the time to take pics and offer description to help a fellow forum member out. Most are smart enough to realize if they are killing the bracket or drift tool then they need to seek further assistance. Well, I hope so!

 

Profiling and polishing as stated above is good advice. But personally if the GB drifts off easily then I would still do it to ensure proper gassing! Easily meaning several good whacks with hammer I used a small 3lb. sledge but a good mallet, or framing hammer will work but, may require heavier strikes? Remember, QC is crap! However, I'm betting you can do it.

Edited by Guns Are Great
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Please let Guns Are Great's post put it to rest and hopefully everyone feels like they've spoken their piece.

 

I guess I will drill out the holes before trying to grind the bolt and bolt carrier. It seems like it's going to make a bigger difference, it's easier to perform (thanks for the tip about the dowel, King of the Hill) and it's easier and cheaper to get another barrel than it is to get another bolt & carrier.

 

Thanks again to everyone for your support, this means a great deal to me! Unfortunately I won't get to drill and test shoot for a while but I'll report back on how it turns out.

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I fired off 20 rounds of 3" #00 Magnum during my first shoot with my ONE Saiga. Other then learning that the "sporter" stock isn't much help, mines GTG until I get it converted. No doubt about it, with a Saiga your experience will most likely vary.

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Where are you finding these "Easy and Cheap" Barrels?

 

Please let Guns Are Great's post put it to rest and hopefully everyone feels like they've spoken their piece.

 

I guess I will drill out the holes before trying to grind the bolt and bolt carrier. It seems like it's going to make a bigger difference, it's easier to perform (thanks for the tip about the dowel, King of the Hill) and it's easier and cheaper to get another barrel than it is to get another bolt & carrier.

 

Thanks again to everyone for your support, this means a great deal to me! Unfortunately I won't get to drill and test shoot for a while but I'll report back on how it turns out.

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When I was looking for parts, it looked easier and cheaper to get barrels than a bolt and carrier (and not by much). I didn't look for long because I got depressed by the situation but from what I saw there were more barrels than the B&C combos (I only found one). Judging from the surprise I am encountering, I must be remembering the prices wrong though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sad but true. I think a couple of the big old companies which made rifled shotgun barrels have died in the last couple of years too. That eliminates the easiest route of manufacture, buy a rifled blank and machine the breach onto it.

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How hard is it to drill out the holes bigger?

 

Is it as simple as drilling down into the hole at the right angle?

 

Any special preps or anything?

Just keep your angles & I'd strongly recommend against using any drill bit larger than 5/64th.

I've never had to go more than 3 ports @ 3/32 (.093) or 4 ports at .076 (5/64) with a 19" S-12 (yeah, I know 5/64 is supposed to be .078", but all my bits I Mic out are actually .075" & I drill at 220 RPM, so I don't bore them out larger than the bit)

 

If it's not working after that, toss in a CSS Performance Puc because the nipple takes up the space if your op-rod's length isn't set far enough into the gas block.

That fix used to be much more involved. Thanks Greg. 032.gif

 

Also, do the extractor slot fix;

http://forum.saiga-1...post__p__480426

 

And you want to make sure your gas block isn't canted. That can slightly bind the carrier & rob a bit of power from the cycle.

 

Additionally, with the FCG, all springs & the bolt removed, run the carrier back & fourth along the rails looking for tight spots.

Sometimes rails will be slightly warped, or high in one spot.

You can hit those specific areas with sand paper to knock just those areas down without loosening everything up too much.

 

Also, polishing the underside of the barrel-hood area doesn't hurt.

 

One test you can do is have the bolt & carrier removed & drop in a shell out of the lot that you have issues with.

It should drop all the way in like it's chambered & you should be able to make it jump up & down in there by shaking the gun up & down with the barrel pointed toward the ground.

If the edge of the shell jams up on the inside of the barrel hood, that's an issue.

I've seen it before & it jams in there robbing tremendous power from the cycle.

Same happens if you have a slightly undersized chamber. (have a professional gunsmith handle that if that's the case with the chamber would be my advise)

 

If using a US made hammer, it should be properly profiled & matched to the underside of the carrier for optimal performance for a proper reset. The underside of the carrier, which resets the hammer can vary in thickness greatly. I've found great amounts of variation between units.

Then on top of that, the US hammers are all made for AKs.

AKs use slightly larger hammers than the S-12, therefore on many guns with the thicker undersides of their carriers, that's going to rob quite a bit of power from the cycle when one just drops in a US made FCG.

(Be careful when modifying fire CONTROL groups please.)

 

Also, a borderline gun will in fact run better when a bit dirty.

You are correct, it seals it up a bit.

 

However, I've seen people who thought they had a clean gun, but their ports were pretty clogged.

A paperclip won't cut it.

Paperclips are about .035" & the ports clog up like your heart's arteries with a plaque of led & carbon forming on the walls & building up gradually inward. An undersized cleaner will not completely knock the led off the walls.

If you use a paperclip that's .035, all you can be sure of is that your open ports area is at least .035" each, which is less than half the proper size. This is why I send .07", .08" & .09" tapered Port Gauge/Cleaners with all GlassBolts (and no, I don't sell them separately, sorry.), grab a micrometer & find the propper size carbon steel wire.

 

Of course, you should profile the bolt at the very least to reduce resistance as the bolt rotates & extracts over the shells pressed against its underside. http://forum.saiga-1...olish-the-bolt/

I find it better to reduce resistance & keep power in the cycle rather than try to get there with gas alone. The more gas, the harder your puc slams the op-rod & the more stress on the female end of the carriers, which could result in premature failure. I prefer to tune the guns. Unfortunately, we learn about more things that we never imagined the Russians would screw up by the day.

 

A very meticulous previous customer of mine, "JohnnyE", a highly educated professional researcher recorded his findings & reported how his 3 properly tuned S-12's, CSS Performance Puc & a V-plug shoots;

 

 

Another very satisfied customer here, three times over. I sent Pauly three bolts, carriers, BHO’s and FCG’s from my converted Saiga 12’s. When I got ‘em back, wow did they look impressive! Looks are one thing, but I demand flawlessly performing firearms, so it was off to the range for a test.

 

 

 

They worked great. The bolts closes soooo smoothly, but all three guns were Vodka specials, and skeet loads wouldn’t always eject, so there was still work to do.

 

 

 

Back home I removed the gas blocks, unshrouded the small 0.068" ports and opened them all up to 0.093". Three ports in the 19" guns, two ports in the 24" gun. I lubed the sliding parts with moly grease, and rotating parts with ATF, swapped in CSS performance pucs and MD Arms V-Plugs, grabbed lots of ammo, and headed back to the range a few days later.

 

 

 

Perfection! All three guns ate Winchester 3" Magnum slugs and Remington OO Express Magnum with the V-Plug on setting 1; Remington #4 nitro mags and 2¾" slugs on setting 2; 2¾" Remington Express OO and Express #4 Long Range on setting 3; Remington 2¾" managed recoil slugs on setting 4; and all US brands of 2¾"#7 ½ through #9 birdshot and skeet loads on setting 5. The only thing they won't eat are Winchester's low noise, low recoil ammo, which the box warns you is not for semi-auto guns, but only pump and break-top weapons.

 

Because of my personal testing results combined with this account as well as several similar, therefore knowing that a properly tuned firearm will reliably run 3" magnum slugs with the V-plug choked all the way down to its most restrictive gas setting with the correct port size, I personally will not add more gas, because I do not want the firearm's carrier to be abused when I shoot 3" magnum, which I do so often & is my home/personal defense round.

 

Now, if someone's building a purpose-built race-gun that they (or the next owner) will not shoot high powered loads through, the extra gas from overgassing can usually be choked down with a V-plug when shooting medium powered loads without excessively wearing the weapon, but you'd only want to do that if you required running loads lighter than winchester bulk pack, otherwise, you'd lose durability with the heavy loads with no additional benefit.

 

Good luck.

 

Edit;

Oops.

Looks like this was 2 weeks ago.

Hope you got it running to your satisfaction.

Edited by PauIy
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Success!

 

About a week ago I removed the gas block which fortunately tapped right off with a 1lb hammer and the shelf brackets.

 

Yesterday I then took my gun to a buddy's house and we drilled out each of the four the holes. They were about 2/32 each to start with. He enlarged them to 5/64 in preparation of stepping them up to a 3/32. After the first hole was drilled out to a 3/32, we lost our nerve because the holes were getting pretty big, so we left the other three at 5/64.

 

I took it home then re installed the gas block, the hardest part being the installation of the upper retaining pin with the spring loaded gas plug pin. I then reassembled my gun.

 

Today I installed the MD arms booster piston and gas plug and went to the range for a test fire. The Estate Heavy Game Load that I have been using failed to eject on settings 1-4 and then magically ejected every round on a 5. I shot of 35 rounds from my 5 rounder, 10 rounder and 20 rounder, and didn't have a single FTE with the exception of the test fires on settings 1-4. It was glorious! To top it off, when I told the range master what I was there to do, he didn't charge me or even make me sign in!

 

I'm tempted to go back later and drill out the rest of the holes to 3/32 to be able to shoot the really low power stuff.

 

As a side note, my buddy carefully filed off the burrs on the top of the barrel that were left from drilling but we were unable to take care of the ones that poked down into the inside. I forgot about them when I went to fire and now from what I can tell, they are mostly (but not all) gone, and fortunately the barrel is not marred by them being pushed out by the shot/wadding. Does anyone have a tip to remove the burrs from the inside of the barrel?

 

Also Pauly, it's never too late, thanks for the input! It's good info for future info and anyone else who finds this thread may have the same questions.

 

Once again, thanks to everyone, I really appreciate the help and welcoming attitude. Perhaps the effort that I had to go through to get this gun running is more fulfilling than it would have been to just pull it out of the box and have a perfectly firing gun.

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