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I had a range trip yesterday and my ar-15 with a stag arms model 2 upper got stuck cases with tula ammo twice out of around 100 rounds. The chamber was cleaned before the trip. I've searched around about fixes and haven't found much. Is there anything I can do short of replacing the entire upper?

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May look into a stronger extractor spring, I was having rounds stuck in to chamber on mt AR-15 till I put a new spring in now it runs just fine.

Get a rod to push them out just in case.

Steal isn't as flexible so some times debris can get between the case and chamber wall.

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The red lacquer on the ammo has a tendency to stick in the chamber and make the diameter a wee bit smaller. Clean ASAP after range, or take a bore brush with you. That stuff is hard to get out if allowed to build up.

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I had a range trip yesterday and my ar-15 with a stag arms model 2 upper got stuck cases with tula ammo twice out of around 100 rounds. The chamber was cleaned before the trip. I've searched around about fixes and haven't found much. Is there anything I can do short of replacing the entire upper?

try some WPA ammo027.gif
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I usually do clean after my range trips chamber and all. I may try replacing the extracter and spring, for the price its worth a try. Although the casings looked like the extracter had ripped off the rim. I have another 900 rounds left that I will end up using even if I have to knock a few out. For 1000 rounds at $200 the price can't be beat. I thought tula and wolf came from the same factory? I have considered a 5.45x39 saiga, the price for corrosive stuff seems good. The funny thing was I brought my saiga 12 out the same day and it ran 125 rounds of federal bulk and 50 centurion slugs without a single issue.

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The reason I've heard for ARs disliking steel case ammo goes something like this: particularly on 16", carbine-length models--the case is still under a bit of pressure when the bolt unlocks thanks to the extra 2" of barrel compared to an M4. Since steel either expands less than brass or just contracts more quickly, more soot gets blown between the chamber and the case, causing the jam-up...or something.

 

I've also had some problems with Wolf in my AR. The extractor ripped through one rim and ended my day shooting since I didn't have a cleaning rod.

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Hot chamber and painted casings may not be the best combo, YMMV. I’m pretty sure some manufactures say don’t use it (Oly for one), and especially in a barrel that doesn’t have a chrome lined chamber.

 

As stated elsewhere above if you’re shooting it put a major cleaning on the chamber afterwards. I’ve shot a pile of the Wolf stuff with no issues in my 20” Bushmaster (chromed) and a pretty good bunch in my 16” Oly (un-chromed) without any issues to date, doesn’t mean next range trip will not need a range rod but so far so good.

 

I would also agree with as stated above if you can in the future go with brass.

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The reason I've heard for ARs disliking steel case ammo goes something like this: particularly on 16", carbine-length models--the case is still under a bit of pressure when the bolt unlocks thanks to the extra 2" of barrel compared to an M4. Since steel either expands less than brass or just contracts more quickly, more soot gets blown between the chamber and the case, causing the jam-up...or something.

 

I've also had some problems with Wolf in my AR. The extractor ripped through one rim and ended my day shooting since I didn't have a cleaning rod.

 

You're talking about blow-by gas. Steel expands more slowly than brass so that's why you have more blow-by. But the blow-by also can aid extraction making it more like a blowback action (Equal but opposite, Newton strikes again). The other thing, sounds like increased pressure caused your carrier to travel too quickly ripping through the rim. It's a medium ground thing. Too slow, not good too fast, FTE.

 

Extra 2 inches should not matter with a carbine length. Now mid length on a 16in barrel chambered for 5.56 is where you can run into a few issues. It's do-able but you gotta do your homework. If you have a correctly drilled gas port, the 2 inches will make it more reliable and add a lil bit of muzzle velocity.

 

I've shot 100s of rounds through my AR, mostly steel cased. It'll do it. Laquer coated casings are not really the fault here. This issue has been debunked with testing. Mainly the big thing was it looked like laquer to somebody, they didn't understand what they were seeing and here came the misinformation. It's not really true laquer. What they call it I can't really remember, but it was tested and found that the coating will not melt and stick to the chamber at the temperatures that are achievable in rifles, it has to actually get conciderably hotter before issues show up.

 

I'd site the info for you but I can't remember from my endless searching the web for information in a quest to understand firearms but trust me, you will find the info, it's out there. Companies making com-bloc ammo made the switch to another coating for com-bloc ammo but it was tested too and found not as reliable. This seems to go with what I've discovered, that the old stuff feel slicker than the new stuff. Maybe they'll find away to make the new stuff better. Both feed 100% so I just keep firing.

 

[Remembered something] The reason they switched the coating was consumer concern, new military issued ammo still has the old coating.

 

Brass works but lets face it, it's not as cheap. And if one AR can do it then I'm pretty sure you can make the other ones do it if you work on them. It'll do it, why settle for less than what you can get out of your rifle?

 

As for my specs, it's a 16 inch carbine length DI AR 5.56 (I have two ARs), Double Star Arms upper and lower, 1/9 twist rate, standard AR buffer, standard AR buffer spring, basic parkerized Colt styled bolt carrier. Just a basic setup aside from the furnature.

Edited by ShadowFire
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I'm NOT... NOT ...again.... EVERYBODY READ THIS: NOT trying to turn this into an AK vs AR shitstorm. But why are AR's more prone to do that? is it a tolerance thing? extractor design? chamber shape? magic?

Well, steel doesn't seal against the chamber as tight, so it's already more prone to getting gunked up. The AR's design itself does get more gunk in the works, too.

 

And I'd bet that the steelcase ammo has some nasty powder that leaves behind a lot of gunk, too. I know the PRVI ammo that my PSL doesn't hate is nasty, leaving carbon all over the place.

 

The early M16s gunked up in Vietnam when the ammo manufacturer went to a different powder to get that last 50fps out of the case. But if you got a different lot of ammo (Federal or Winchester instead of LC), it ran fine and didn't gunk up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As for the lacquer not melting at those temperatures, it doesn't have to. The lacquer does chip and flake off, as does the primer/case neck sealant. That red shit you see all over the inside of your receiver after firing the old Wolf Military Classic? Sealant.

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I've put plenty of steel ammo through my Franken-rifle and other ARs without out any ammo related issues (had a bad extractor spring once but that was a quick fix and haven't had an issue since)

 

I'm anal about cleaning my weapons after every range trip (some habits die hard after your drill instructor beats it into you) so I've yet to see any build up issues after putting a crap ton of wolf military classic through my rifle.

 

A .410 bore brush and some solvents great for cleaning the chamber in a hurry.

 

One thing I've seen people do a lot people over lube their ARs. POURING STUPID AMOUNTS OF OIL all over your bolt before shooting isn't the best plan of action, especially with really dirty ammo.Excessive oil only cause dust and grim to stick and doesn't really help anything.

 

A good cleaning goes a long way for resolving most weapon issues.

 

I suspect the powder used in steel ammo burns dirtier then the powder used in brass cased ammo, combine that with steel not expanding as must to provide a tight seal and it would lead to extraction issues.

 

Is your rifle chambered for .223, .223 Wylde or 5.56?

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One thing I've seen people do a lot people over lube their ARs. POURING STUPID AMOUNTS OF OIL all over your bolt before shooting isn't the best plan of action, especially with really dirty ammo.Excessive oil only cause dust and grim to stick and doesn't really help anything.

You shouldn't "pour" it all over your bolt. Lube the bolt through the holes in the bolt carrier as that is what they are intended for. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Over lubing isn't really going to be an issue IMO. I went through a course when still Active Duty where we shot thousands of rounds in a five day timeframe. We did not clean anything the entire time, just kept lubing. Our carbines were dripping with lube and grime but they still ran. Shouldn't be an issue with a range situation where the weapon gets cleaned and lubed at the end of the day. Everything I've read regarding steel cases in ARs is boils down to the slower expansion of the case which allows more debris to blow back and foul the chamber. The Russian ammo is a lot dirtier so there is more debris blowing back. Also in the equation is the laquer on the casing. Not that it melts and sticks. It adds a little more to the diameter of the case, not much though but if the AR is chambered for .223 instead of 5.56, it is almost like shoving a 5.56 into a .223 chamber. It fits, but tight.

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I shot one of the house AR's at Pat Rogers course that hadn't been cleaned in something absurd. 16,000 rounds? It got a little flaky at the end, so I'd say you might want to clean it every 10-15,000 rounds.

 

Oh, yeah, don't use steel cased ammo in high-round count classes. It pretty much never ends well. I've been that guy a couple of time in classes, I won't do it again.

Edited by KevinInNM
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  • 4 weeks later...

I shot one of the house AR's at Pat Rogers course that hadn't been cleaned in something absurd. 16,000 rounds? It got a little flaky at the end, so I'd say you might want to clean it every 10-15,000 rounds.

 

Oh, yeah, don't use steel cased ammo in high-round count classes. It pretty much never ends well. I've been that guy a couple of time in classes, I won't do it again.

 

You shot filthy fourteen??? That's pretty cool man!

 

Oh, and aside from one issue where I was actually trying to see how many rounds and how little lube it took to make mine fail, she eats what I feed her...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm NOT... NOT ...again.... EVERYBODY READ THIS: NOT trying to turn this into an AK vs AR shitstorm. But why are AR's more prone to do that? is it a tolerance thing? extractor design? chamber shape? magic?

Well, steel doesn't seal against the chamber as tight, so it's already more prone to getting gunked up. The AR's design itself does get more gunk in the works, too.

 

And I'd bet that the steelcase ammo has some nasty powder that leaves behind a lot of gunk, too. I know the PRVI ammo that my PSL doesn't hate is nasty, leaving carbon all over the place.

 

The early M16s gunked up in Vietnam when the ammo manufacturer went to a different powder to get that last 50fps out of the case. But if you got a different lot of ammo (Federal or Winchester instead of LC), it ran fine and didn't gunk up.

 

actually... there is an even more SIMPLE reason... CASE TAPER.

 

There is more taper to an X39 case, so it is easier to extract... For the instant it moves even a tiny bit rearward, the amount of friction from chamber to bullet casing contact is about zero. 032.gif Think pulling a cone out of a cone shaped hole, versus pulling a cylinder out of a cylinder shaped hole... even dirty... the cone will pop right out. :lol:

 

 

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My cousin has 2 ARs: a Daniel Defense and a Bushmaster. The DD has the chrome job from chamber to tip, while the bushy is just a chrome-moly barrel. The bushy will choke on steel, while the DD will gladly eat whatever you feed it. I have a PSA upper sitting at the PO with the FN machine gun steel barrel with "double chrome" lining(same as the M249 and M240). I emailed PSA on shooting steel, and they said they hadn't received any negatives on steel other than it was filthy.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I guess this really depends on the upper. I haven't been on hear in awhile.. took up a new hobby. Although I did finish a project recently. Using a 5.45x39 smith upper and the polymer frontier arms lower, someone posted about here. I've only had the time to put 600 rounds through so far, but it runs surplus corrosive steel cased without any trouble.

 

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Mine is a PWA with a Colt M-16 parts kit. The only time I ever had trouble with steel cased was when I was testing it to see how dirty and how dry it could be to run steel-cased, it was very enlightening... I'm pretty sure it doesn't have any chrome lining at all, it runs steel-cased ammo just fine. The wife's Bushmaster Carbon-15 also runs steel cased just fine so far, no chrome that I know of either...

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The red lacquer on the ammo has a tendency to stick in the chamber and make the diameter a wee bit smaller. Clean ASAP after range, or take a bore brush with you. That stuff is hard to get out if allowed to build up.

 

I had a Smith & Wesson MP15-R that I shot thousands of steel cased Monarch 5.45x39 ammo (the kind coated with the red lacquer) through and never had a jam or failure to extract, with very minimal cleaning. You will see lots and lots of red flakes and junk in your rifle but I never seen a jam caused by it. I believe the problem is more with the steel case not expanding as much as the brass in the chamber letting soot and powder residue build up in the chamber, rather than the lacquer itself. However, the lacquer does seem to get into and build up in the firing pin channel and under the extractor though, but I have yet to experience a problem from that.

 

 

I had a range trip yesterday and my ar-15 with a stag arms model 2 upper got stuck cases with tula ammo twice out of around 100 rounds. The chamber was cleaned before the trip. I've searched around about fixes and haven't found much. Is there anything I can do short of replacing the entire upper?

try some WPA ammo027.gif

 

 

WPA ammo, you know the new polymer coated stuff, is the only type that I have seen jam in any of my 5.56x45 AR15's. That stuck case occurred using a Stag Model 4H upper, of course I had shot a mixture of about 80 rounds of various steel cased ammo (Wolf, WPA, Monarch, Siver Bear and Wolf Military Classic), then shot 30 or so rounds of brass and then went back to shooting some WPA polymer coated ammo and had a stuck case before firing off over 10 rounds of ammo. It was black soot on the case wall not lacquer.

 

 

BCM M-16 BCG's are the way to go for steel cased ammo. I use one in my 7.5" pistol and it has seen at least 1,000 rds of the cheapest steel cased shit you can get with ZERO jams.

 

The stuck case mentioned above occured with a brand new Stag 4H upper that came with a Stag M16 BCG, but I had decided to keep that one for a spare and dropped in a brand new BCM M16 BCG, and this was what I was using when the stuck case occurred. I had not installed the o-ring that came with the BCG as I was testing it to see if it was needed. The upper was cleaned and lubed before using as well. It is possible that the presence of the o-ring may have applied enough pressure to have extracted the case if it had been installed. I might install the o-ring and try again.

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