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Alternative to Ultimak Gas Tube Rail...


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I think the recoil would make short work of it. Might as well just use two-sided tape and stick it on.

Thanks for your replies.   Although I agree the Ultimak is a great option (from all the glowing reviews), if I do go with a forward rail, I'll try the J-B Weld first. If it fails and I go with the

Marketing genius, you've got to admit.

I just received the UTG rail I ordered and placed it on top of my gas tube. The first thing I noticed was that sighting down my iron sights will no longer be an option. The rail, although low, is still about 7/16" higher than the Ultimak. I'll try to post a couple of pics so you can see what I mean.

 

Additionally, I will need to leave a bead of at least another 1/16" of JB Weld between the rail and the tube for adhesion strength. So, do I want to give up the availability of my iron sights? Not really. However, in the interests of this thread and, because I have a replacement gas tube on its way to me, I am going to do it anyway. Perhaps I wil discover I no longer care about my iron sights or, perhaps there are some of you who don't care about your iron sights. (I have a Marlin Camp-9 and have never cared about the iron sights since I mounted a rail and an RD-30 on it.) So... let's see if I can post a couple of pics to show you the rail height comparison...

 

 

MINE

 

GasTubeRail.jpg

 

ULTIMAK

 

ak_worthwhile_enhancements_ultimak_aimpoint_d_000.jpg

Edited by DrDyno
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hells dude, Let us know how it goes!

 

I was actually the one who started one of the JB weld threads, I was thinking of using it for the bullet guide.

 

I did my homework and found that JB weld is really REALLY strong stuff. especially the uber metal kind.

 

I will probably drill and tap the hole for the bullet guide, but the JB weld idea is still really interesting.

 

I would do some research before i affixed the rail to the gas tube though, How hot does a gas tube actually get? do you have a thermometer that can measure it? Im thinking one of those trippy laser ones would do well.

 

I would get temperature readings after one round, 3 rounds, 10 rounds, 20 rounds and 30 rounds then see the temp variation. Then check what JB weld is rated for. If the temps of the gas tube are well within the recommended range of JB weld, hell, go for it! the worst thing that can happen is the JB weld gives up and your optic goes for a ride. But! as mentioned above, the addition of a safety line to the optic will stop it from hitting the ground.

 

All in all i'd say go for it if you want to. like i said earlier, the worst thing that will happen is the JB gives out and your optic comes off. you may need to clean up the gas block, but who cares?

 

keep us informed as to what happens, I would love to know :D

 

good luck sir!

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Thanks, Red Star. I appreciate the encouragement. Checking the info on the back of the JB Weld package it says it's good to 600-degrees F and has a tensile strength of 3960 PSi. Those two parameters should easily allow for my little experiment. What we don't know is how well it adheres to both steel and aluminum. I will do my best to properly scuff up and clean the parts and will be really careful to mix it properly. I'm in no hurry and have lots of time before it starts to set up. If it doesn' work it will be because it can not work, not because I took a short cut.

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well, with that data, im thinking that the only problem that could arise is degradation of the JB weld over time. I dont know what the service life of JB is, but im thinking that it should do fine.

 

and for retaining zero with the optic i think you should be good too. I dont feel any give on the gas tube when i pull on it vertically, no play when i try and rotate it either. the only play that i get is forwards and backwards along its long axis.

 

I'm really keen as to how this solution develops... please do keep us informed :D

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.

 

well, with that data, im thinking that the only problem that could arise is degradation of the JB weld over time. I dont know what the service life of JB is, but im thinking that it should do fine.

 

and for retaining zero with the optic i think you should be good too. I dont feel any give on the gas tube when i pull on it vertically, no play when i try and rotate it either. the only play that i get is forwards and backwards along its long axis.

 

I'm really keen as to how this solution develops... please do keep us informed :D

 

Please don't call this a "solution"

 

and please god dont try to use jb weld to secure a goddamn bullet guide in your rifle.

 

I disagree with the contention that JB Weld has no place on a firearm. It's a pretty good body filler. I've also used it to keep shims from shifting around, but those shims were being held in place by other parts.

 

Using as filler I could totally see. But securing rails and bullet guides are a horse of a different color.

Edited by hutchsaiga
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yeah, it would be adhering the BG to the trunion. I have neither the time, nor inclination to sculpt a BG out of JB weld.

 

and it is a solution, whether it is a GOOD solution is another matter.

 

And we have done our homework regarding JB weld.

 

the particular kind i am thinking of using (Industro Weld) has these properties:

 

Properties (psi)

Tensile Strength:3960

Adhesion:1800

Flex Strength:7320

Tensile Lap Shear:1040

Shrinkage:0.0%

Resistant to:500° F

 

we want to look at a couple of numbers here:

 

the tensile lap shear number. That tells us that it takes 1040 pounds per square inch of pressure on the bullet guide, or rail on the gas tube, to get the JB weld to break. so, even if your bolt carrier hits it, it would have to hit it at 1040 PSI to break the bond. I dont think that the force of the bolt carrier or even bolt itself hitting a BG would be sufficient to break the bond.

 

The tensile strength of 3960 PSI means that you would have to pull, in this example, 3960 PSI perpendicular to the bond to break it. i cant pull that hard...

 

And, to top it all off, its resistant up to 500 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

So, at least on paper, JB weld has the properties to secure both a bullet guide and a rail atop a gas tube. Is it the best solution? maybe not. Will it work? it probably will.

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Well, except for touching up and paint (and, of course, a trip to the range) our little project is complete. Based upon my personal efforts at separation, I doubt if I could separate the rail from the gas tube with a hammer! Of course, a trip to the range will tell if the thermal expansion has an effect on the "weld." I doubt it will because the JB Weld is advertised for engine block repairs and engine parts can exceed 300-degrees in some exterior areas.

 

By the way, although I thought (and posted) that the iron sights would no longer be functional, I was wrong. If I remove the optics from the rail, the iron sights are indeed operational (through the channel down the center of the rail).

 

I have a series of some 14 pictures of the entire process... does the forum have a limit on the number or size of personal pics?

 

Following are just two of them:

 

7ApplyingtheJBWeldcopy.jpg

 

14FinishedTubeRail-side.jpg

Edited by DrDyno
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http://forum.saiga-1...__fromsearch__1

 

Look at this

868883db.jpg

 

Dolomite

 

In his initial post he mentions either silver soldering or using an epoxy. After he machined the rail, he doesn't say which process he used to attach it to the gas tube. Maybe he used JB Weld but didn't own up to it so he wouldn't get flamed! biggrin.png

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http://forum.saiga-1...__fromsearch__1

 

Look at this

868883db.jpg

 

Dolomite

 

In his initial post he mentions either silver soldering or using an epoxy. After he machined the rail, he doesn't say which process he used to attach it to the gas tube. Maybe he used JB Weld but didn't own up to it so he wouldn't get flamed! biggrin.png

 

Actually I never attached it. It was more of a "can it be done" experiment than anything.

 

Personally if I were going to use anything to attach it would be Devcon Steel Putty or Marintex. They tend to work better than JB because they are thicker in consistency and stay where you put them.

 

Dolomite

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FWIW, I used JBWeld 5 years ago when I put Aluminum shims on the magwell of my WASR. Aluminum to steel. Did it to remedy some of that mag wobble.

The shims are still there after close to three thousand rounds through it.

It would have had a LOT more rounds downrange if I could have afforded it. Damned Obama economy...dry.png

 

Now, that area doesn't get nearly as hot as a gas tube, but, still, JB has worked well in that application thus far.

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Agreed.

 

My point was more to the comment about JB Weld having no place on a gun. Totally depends on the desired application for said filler. I could have used rivets, or a spot weld, but, as you pointed out, shims aren't under tension. They are under compression.

In that particular application, JB Weld worked very well on my gun.032.gif

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Shims are under compression - a perfectly good place to use a filler. A sight base is under tension - a perfectly awful place to use a filler.

 

For GOB , JOHN U. and several others, allow me to respectfully remind you that the purpose of this thread was not to consider the virtues of J-B Weld nor the efficacy of using J-B Weld on a firearm. It was simply to explore the possibility of attaching (bonding) an inexpensive front rail to the gas tube as a low cost alternative to the Ultimak offering.

 

Tensile strength, compressive strength, etc., all play an engineering part in the process. Compressive strength is not an issue in this application. Tensile strength comes into play but... a manufacturer's tensile strength number is identifying the force required to pull their product apart from itself. Assuming J-B Weld's tensile strength of 3960 psi is adequate for this application, the real question we are looking to answer is its bonding or adhesive strength between the two substrates (sheet metal gas tube surround and aluminum Picatinny rail).

 

As it stands right now, prior to the shock and heat of a range visit, there is no doubt I could suspend my Saiga from the rail, indefinitely, without failure of the bond. Handling the finished product (and assuming J-B Weld's claim of 600-degrees F is accurate) I feel pretty confident it will stand up to firing abuse. (I am hoping to get to the range on Friday.)

 

Several of you have offered that this could be a viable idea if a different bonding agent were used (Devcon, Marintex, 5200, silver solder, etc.). So perhaps some of your collective objections refer to the product, J-B Weld, itself. This, I don't understand. J-B Weld is an American product, manufactured right here in the good old USA. If anything, I could understand the objection of using an American product on a Russian instrument. But, the idea that "J-B Weld has no place on a firearm" sounds particularly prejudicial to me. JOHN U. used it successfully on his magazines and here's a link to a fellow who successfully uses it to modify and improve triggers on Ruger 10/22's:

http://home.earthlin...weldtrickmyway/

 

So, my question is: if I go to the range and put 3,000 rounds through my Saiga without incident, will J-B Weld still have no place on a firearm? (By the way, 3,000 rounds is not going to happen... I'm not going to spend $1000.00 to prove a $15.00 idea has merit).

 

Gentlemen, I have no particular allegiance to J-B Weld. If it works as I hope it will, I will be delighted. And, my satisfaction will not come from making any of you wrong. It will come from an idea that actually works and can be easily shared. In closing this post, I offer the following question:

Wasn't there a time when the use of plastic on a firearm was considered sacrilegious?

 

17FinishedTubeRail-rifle.jpg

Edited by DrDyno
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So, my question is: if I go to the range and put 3,000 rounds through my Saiga without incident, will J-B Weld still have no place on a firearm? (By the way, 3,000 rounds is not going to happen...

 

That's right JB Weld has a stigma that it is a jimmy rig replacment for a proper repair really in any situation.

 

Also where are you getting 3000 rds for $100?

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I just received the UTG rail I ordered and placed it on top of my gas tube. The first thing I noticed was that sighting down my iron sights will no longer be an option. The rail, although low, is still about 7/16" higher than the Ultimak. I'll try to post a couple of pics so you can see what I mean.

 

Additionally, I will need to leave a bead of at least another 1/16" of JB Weld between the rail and the tube for adhesion strength. So, do I want to give up the availability of my iron sights? Not really. However, in the interests of this thread and, because I have a replacement gas tube on its way to me, I am going to do it anyway. Perhaps I wil discover I no longer care about my iron sights or, perhaps there are some of you who don't care about your iron sights. (I have a Marlin Camp-9 and have never cared about the iron sights since I mounted a rail and an RD-30 on it.) So... let's see if I can post a couple of pics to show you the rail height comparison...

 

 

MINE

 

GasTubeRail.jpg

 

ULTIMAK

 

ak_worthwhile_enhancements_ultimak_aimpoint_d_000.jpg

Well, I was going to point out that a main win for the ultimak is the ability to co-witness, but looks like you've figured that out.

 

Good luck. Haters be hatin'.

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That's right JB Weld has a stigma that it is a jimmy rig replacment for a proper repair really in any situation.

 

Also where are you getting 3000 rds for $100?

 

Oops... left out a "0." I'll edit now.

 

Thanks, twoskinsoneman. (Interesting user name!)

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DrDyno,

 

Regardless of the JB Weld side issue, I'm following this thread with a good deal of interest.

Being a serial juryrigger, I'm fascinated by ingenuity. Especially, in the field of firearms.

I am anxious to see your ongoing range results, be it stunning success, or, epic fail.008.gif

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RANGE REPORT: A-OK!

 

This afternoon I shot five magazines through my J-B Weld equipped Saiga, well over 100 rounds. I shot about equal amounts of two different cartridges: Russian made Wolf 122 Gr. HP and Sellier & Bellot 123 Gr. SP hunting rounds (what a difference... the Russian ammo makes a louder boom but smells like rotting flesh!). We can't bump-fire at my range but I did shoot a significant number of rounds with sub 2-second intervals.

 

Once dialed in, my trusty old (cheap) BSA RD30 held zero throughout the exercise. Upon returning home, I inspected the "weld" joint with a jeweler's loupe (about 20X magnification) and could find NO degradation of the J-B Weld joint. So, as far as I am concerned...

 

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT AN INEXPENSIVE ALTERNATIVE TO THE Ultimak Gas Tube Rail... THIS WORKS VERY WELL!

 

And, for those of you who still want to cry "foul,"... my Saiga's equipped with a Black Jack Buffer!

 

14FinishedTubeRail-side-1.jpg

Edited by DrDyno
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...FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT AN INEXPENSIVE ALTERNATIVE TO THE Ultimak Gas Tube Rail... THIS WORKS VERY WELL!

 

And, for those of you who still want to cry "foul,"... my Saiga's equipped with a Black Jack Buffer!

 

I'm glad to hear that your JB Weld job held up through an entire range trip, but what does the presence of the buffer have to do with anything? :huh:

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