Alternative to Ultimak Gas Tube Rail...

[DrDyno 12]

Hi All,

 

New to Saiga-12 forums. I have a converted Saiga 7.62 and want to put a rail on my gas tube.

 

My gas tube locks down very tightly and I am wondering if anyone has used J-B Weld (or similar product) to epoxy a rail to the top of the gas tube. It should save about $85.00 over the Ultimak, allow the gas tube to come off easily for cleaning and forgo any clamps around the barrel.

 

Thanks in advance for your experience and/or suggestions.

 

ADDED March 22nd

 

Finished (except for touching-up and paint) and... I don't think I could separate the rail from the gas tube with a sledge hammer!

I am going to duplicate this post at the end of the thread with more pics and explanation. And, yes, I'll post a range report as soon as I can get to the range.

 

Edited March 23, 2012 by DrDyno

[RoughRider666 47]

dude, your rockin the boat... Ultimak is tried and true....

[mogunner 240]

I think the recoil would make short work of it. Might as well just use two-sided tape and stick it on.

[markdavidson 28]

If all your interested in is a forward mounted optic, you would be hard pressed to find a better product that the Ultimak.

you wont be disappointed

[twoskinsoneman 72]

Go for it! Please post before and after pics!

[G O B 3,516]

JB weld does have it's uses. Replacing rivets or welds in not one of them.

[hutchsaiga 93]

JB weld does have it's uses. Replacing rivets or welds in not one of them.

 

True statement. Please god don't just jb weld crap on your rifle. With The heat and vibration I give it one trip to the range. Just buy an ultimak. Or get credible and actually weld, or drill and tap and bolt or rivet things. I'm all for innovation. But not when jb weld is involved

 

Also FYI

 

the clamps around the barrell that the ultimak design incorporates are necessary to hold zero. They wouldn't waste the time machining them

At ultimak if they weren't.

[DrDyno 12]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Although I agree the Ultimak is a great option (from all the glowing reviews), if I do go with a forward rail, I'll try the J-B Weld first. If it fails and I go with the Ultimak, there's really no additional cost.

 

I am considering a forward rail for co-witnessing. Although off topic... I still don't see any real benefit to co-witnessing the sights.

 

By the way, is there a forum for Classified Ads? I have some Saiga add-ons I would like to sell.

 

Thanks,

 

John G.

St. Petersburg, FL

[jimdigriz 580]

Go for it! Please post before and after pics!

 

And after-after pics.

 

I can't wait to see how this one turns out. I'm not convinced the OP is not pulling our leg though.

[NM0 586]

I'm curious to see if it works. The Ultimak on my 5.45 doesn't wiggle around at all like my other gas tubes do.

 

The for sale area is toward the bottom of main page. Here's a link:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/forum/23-items-for-sale-or-trade-from-private-sellers-classifieds/

 

You will have to do the $5 donation and become a contributor before listing.

 

Welcome to the forum.

[Razr 23]

I just installed Hogue handguard. It can be installed with or without rails. It looks slick, lightweight and easy to install/customize.

http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=656&products_id=6679

[DrDyno 12]

I'm curious to see if it works. The Ultimak on my 5.45 doesn't wiggle around at all like my other gas tubes do.

 

The for sale area is toward the bottom of main page. Here's a link:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...rs-classifieds/

 

You will have to do the $5 donation and become a contributor before listing.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

NMO, looks like an Ultimak in your avatar! And, Jim, only because you think I may be kidding, I guess I'll have to do it!! My plan is, as follows:

 

1. Wire brush the top three flats of the gas tube and the bottom of a 6"Picatinny rail

2. Apply J-B Weld to the top flat of the gas tube and moderately press on the rail.

3. Wait 24 hours.

4. Turn the gas tube 90-degrees to the right and apply J-B Weld to the left-side rail/tube seam.

5. Wait 24 hours.

6. Turn the gas tube 90-degrees to the left and apply J-B Weld to the right-side rail/tube seam.

7. Wait 24 hours.

8. Dress the seams and and refinish. (What's the standard Saiga black paint recommendation?)

 

Now... it's off to the gun store for a Picatinny rail and Home Depot for some fresh J-B Weld!

I'll post pics as I go (once I figure out how to post pics on this forum).

 

I just installed Hogue handguard. It can be installed with or without rails. It looks slick, lightweight and easy to install/customize.

http://www.hoguestor...roducts_id=6679

 

Razr, That looks really good, especially for the price. Does the Hogue set-up come with a replacement gas tube and lower hand guard bracket? My Saiga still has the full fore-grip and no notch in the barrel for the lower hand guard bracket.

[NM0 586]

You will need a lower hand guard retainer (bolt on if no notches) and new gas tube for the Hogue hand guard. The lower is in my avatar. I like it too.

 

For more info on non saiga specific hand guards do a little searching in here and you will find a couple different options.

 

Use google and type in saiga 12 forum before your topic. Works better than search in here.

 

Good Luck.

Edited March 16, 2012 by NM0

[Razr 23]

I'm curious to see if it works. The Ultimak on my 5.45 doesn't wiggle around at all like my other gas tubes do.

 

The for sale area is toward the bottom of main page. Here's a link:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...rs-classifieds/

 

You will have to do the $5 donation and become a contributor before listing.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

NMO, looks like an Ultimak in your avatar! And, Jim, only because you think I may be kidding, I guess I'll have to do it!! My plan is, as follows:

 

1. Wire brush the top three flats of the gas tube and the bottom of a 6"Picatinny rail

2. Apply J-B Weld to the top flat of the gas tube and moderately press on the rail.

3. Wait 24 hours.

4. Turn the gas tube 90-degrees to the right and apply J-B Weld to the left-side rail/tube seam.

5. Wait 24 hours.

6. Turn the gas tube 90-degrees to the left and apply J-B Weld to the right-side rail/tube seam.

7. Wait 24 hours.

8. Dress the seams and and refinish. (What's the standard Saiga black paint recommendation?)

 

Now... it's off to the gun store for a Picatinny rail and Home Depot for some fresh J-B Weld!

I'll post pics as I go (once I figure out how to post pics on this forum).

 

I just installed Hogue handguard. It can be installed with or without rails. It looks slick, lightweight and easy to install/customize.

http://www.hoguestor...roducts_id=6679

 

Razr, That looks really good, especially for the price. Does the Hogue set-up come with a replacement gas tube and lower hand guard bracket? My Saiga still has the full fore-grip and no notch in the barrel for the lower hand guard bracket.

 

No, it does not. The set includes only 2 plastic upper handguards - one plain the other one with the rail. You will need to buy lower retaining bracket. Why would you need a replacement gas tube? I am asking because I have SGL-21. Essentially it's a converted Saiga 7.62. I suppose imported configuration does not have upper retainer either.

BTW. Hogue hadguard set is on sale for 39.99 on CSS website. CSS has gas tube replacement for $30. Total cost: Hogue set (39.99) + gas tube (30.00) + lower retainer (49.95) = $119 + shipping. It's up to you what to install though. There are plenty of options.

[hutchsaiga 93]

I'm curious to see if it works. The Ultimak on my 5.45 doesn't wiggle around at all like my other gas tubes do.

 

The for sale area is toward the bottom of main page. Here's a link:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...rs-classifieds/

 

You will have to do the $5 donation and become a contributor before listing.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

NMO, looks like an Ultimak in your avatar! And, Jim, only because you think I may be kidding, I guess I'll have to do it!! My plan is, as follows:

 

1. Wire brush the top three flats of the gas tube and the bottom of a 6"Picatinny rail

2. Apply J-B Weld to the top flat of the gas tube and moderately press on the rail.

3. Wait 24 hours.

4. Turn the gas tube 90-degrees to the right and apply J-B Weld to the left-side rail/tube seam.

5. Wait 24 hours.

6. Turn the gas tube 90-degrees to the left and apply J-B Weld to the right-side rail/tube seam.

7. Wait 24 hours.

8. Dress the seams and and refinish. (What's the standard Saiga black paint recommendation?)

 

Now... it's off to the gun store for a Picatinny rail and Home Depot for some fresh J-B Weld!

I'll post pics as I go (once I figure out how to post pics on this forum).

 

I just installed Hogue handguard. It can be installed with or without rails. It looks slick, lightweight and easy to install/customize.

http://www.hoguestor...roducts_id=6679

 

Razr, That looks really good, especially for the price. Does the Hogue set-up come with a replacement gas tube and lower hand guard bracket? My Saiga still has the full fore-grip and no notch in the barrel for the lower hand guard bracket.

 

 

There is a reason your buying the rail section at the gun store and the jb weld at home depot.

 

Jb weld does not belong on goddamn firearms

 

End this thread already before too many ideas are givin to people who are new the firearms world

 

This is some bubba shit right here

Edited March 16, 2012 by hutchsaiga

[rnemhrd 165]

The cover on the factory gas tube is only tacked on. If you get the rail to stick the gas tube cover may just end up popping off. Someone here had one just pop off on its own.

[BpS12 512]

The Ultimak has allowed us to advance beyond the old hose clamp system. There are reasons why so many on here are poo pooing the makeshift ideas being offered up. Alot of us have tried them at one time or another.

 

Advice only has value if you heed it.

Good luck.

[DrDyno 12]

 

 

There is a reason your buying the rail section at the gun store and the jb weld at home depot.

 

Jb weld does not belong on goddamn firearms

 

End this thread already before too many ideas are givin to people who are new the firearms world

 

This is some bubba shit right here

 

 

Jeez... some folks seem to be taking this a little personal! Guys, I didn't set out to attack your choices or beliefs, I simply started with a question about, what seemed to me, a reasonable idea. And, by the way, the armorer's bench at my local gun shop had a couple of well used tubes of J-B Weld sitting on it.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

I'll play devils advocate and say go for it. Don't know how long it will last, but you won't get yourself hurt. Worst case senario, you'll have to buy a new gas tube and optic. Cause when your JB weld fails, at the worst time, your optic will hit the ground, possibly become damged. And your gas tub will look so bad caked with JB weld that you'll decied to replace it as opposed to sand all that shit off. So have fun take pics, screw the haters man!! ( you might consider silver soder if you can get steel rails) Enjoy.

[preparehandbook 326]

I think you should consider putting a temporary little tether on your optics to forestall the chance of it being damaged if the JB Weld doesn't hold. A safety wire for the first few heating/cooling cycles should safeguard your optics while you first test this mounting system.

 

I tend to agree with the general opinion here that it will not hold, but I have also seen expedient firearm field repairs with JB Weld that lasted much longer than I thought they would.

 

I remember when it was widely believed that an AK assembled with hand hammered rivets was a seen as a recipe for a catastrophic receiver failure and folks said that they wouldn't even set foot on a range where a home-assembled AK was being fired, now this method is considered the benchmark for the highest quality home builds.

 

I still think the JB Weld won't hold due to differential expansion of the gas tube and the JB Weld, but I could be wrong, I have been many times before, like when I said the Yugo was the car of the future, or when I bought that Lehman Bros stock.....

 

 

I would be cautious about listening to any advice not based on real world experience.

Please post pics and a followup so we can see what the real world results are.

[G O B 3,516]

Bonding on a rail is not the problem.

Airplanes are bonded together because in that case the bonding is stronger than welds or rivets.

JB weld is the problem, it is a cheap filler, NOT a bonding agent. Get a good 2 part bonding filler such as DevCon , a 2 part epoxy material that is mostly metal and is strong enough to hold up.

I have used DevCon to repair the exhaust manifold on a 10,600 cu/in diesel submarine engine. Be carefull using it, if you get it anywhere you do not want it, it will need to be ground off once it sets up.

[DrDyno 12]

Thanks to those of you with positive suggestions... they have not fallen on deaf ears.

 

In researching alternatives to JB Weld, I've been led to most of your advice: silver solder, Devcon, etc. The price of the Devcon is half of the Ultimak. "Insta-Fix Pro" is another possibility; again, not cheap. The slver solder idea (or, perhaps, a brazing material designed to join steel with aluminum) is interesting and I could probably figure it out. However, the the cost of the brazing set-up and the material would, again, probably offset my initial intent.

 

I want to make this inexpensive, easy to perform and duplicatable for those of you who would like the attribute of a forward rail without the expense of an Ultimak or the requirement for new fore ends (like the elegance of Razr's choice).

 

In the fore end department, my Saiga has a stock (although vented) full length fore end, which I, personally, like the look of. I purchased a Tapco Intrafuse and didn't like the look as much as the stock unit. That'll be going to the Classified Forum when I get a chance.

 

So, a fresh set of JB Weld is on hand and a 6" rail is ordered (couldn't find anything longer than four inches, locally). Probably won't come together until next week but I will take pics and let you know how many rounds it takes to destroy it (Handbook, thanks for the tether suggestion!).

 

Regards,

 

John

[hutchsaiga 93]

 

 

There is a reason your buying the rail section at the gun store and the jb weld at home depot.

 

Jb weld does not belong on goddamn firearms

 

End this thread already before too many ideas are givin to people who are new the firearms world

 

This is some bubba shit right here

 

 

Jeez... some folks seem to be taking this a little personal! Guys, I didn't set out to attack your choices or beliefs, I simply started with a question about, what seemed to me, a reasonable idea. And, by the way, the armorer's bench at my local gun shop had a couple of well used tubes of J-B Weld sitting on it.

 

You should consider finding a new gun shop then

[DrDyno 12]

 

You should consider finding a new gun shop then

 

Thanks, hutchsaiga. I would have been disappointed if you hadn't posted that response. Not to worry, I'm sure he just uses it to mount rails.

[hutchsaiga 93]

 

You should consider finding a new gun shop then

 

Thanks, hutchsaiga. I would have been disappointed if you hadn't posted that response. Not to worry, I'm sure he just uses it to mount rails.

 

It may seem like im being a dick. Which I kind of am. And I apologize. But jb weld has absolutely no place in the firearms industry.

 

It's a glue, and only a glue. The fact that they even use the term "weld" in their name would make my grandfather(who welded on submarines for 55 years) sick to his stomache.

 

If it pertains to guns, cars, boats or other high stress, high impact items. And you can't bolt or rivet it, and you can't weld, take to someone who can.

[jimdigriz 580]

It's a glue, and only a glue. The fact that they even use the term "weld" in their name...

 

Marketing genius, you've got to admit.

[logartist 6]

A wire feed welder works well on sheet metal. Fins a steel rail and weld it on. Or find a friend with a welder.

[G O B 3,516]

Rivets work well also.

[DrDyno 12]

Gentlemen,

 

Thank you for your continued interest in this topic. Although I heartily concur with the merits of your suggestions, please keep in mind that my original goal was and, still is, to make this inexpensive, easy to perform and duplicatable for those of you (those of us) who would like a forward rail.

 

To that end and, in the interest of experimantation, my plan is to stick to the original idea. I admit that my expectations for permanent success are low. I, too, have had both excellent results and disappointing results with JB Weld in the past. Like many of you, I can afford both premium metal adhesives and/or an Ultimak gas tube. But, where's the fun in that?

 

And... what a hoot if it works!

[hutchsaiga 93]

Keep in mind the ultimak also clamps to barrell. I don't know if you Have seen the slowmo of an ak firing. But becuase of the movement in the barrel the gas block actually moves away from the receiver alot. Which would definatly cause wandering zero.

 

Ultimak engineered the clamps for a reason:)