setting up a budget sniper rifle

[jimmy21 18]

I was thinking my next gun purchas should be a long range sniper rifle. Im not saying that im capable (right now) but i want like to set the gun up to be able to take 1000 yard shots. Since i don't hunt, it will be used to shoot targets, but i want the option to be able to shoot deer and whatnot. I've been doing a little bit of research and it seems that .308 Is the best caliber for me. Packs a lot of punch and is more accurate than a 30-06. It is also more readily available, since i don't reload. I can't believe how expensive this stuff is. At first i started looking at rifles, and a lot of them were in the $500 range. I thought, all right, thats not bad at all. Then i see that people put $1800 scopes and $1200 stocks on to their $500 rifle. No way.

 

What i want out of the gun

 

very long range accuracy

sweet looking tactical stock with a pistol grip

bifold

prefer a magazine, mainly for looks. That might sound wierd, but i don't want a gun that i don't like the way it looks

 

 

So far what ive found

 

$550 remington 700 varmint in 308 with 26" heavy barrel (suppposed to be very accurate right out of the box)

$200 choate ultimate varmint stock. Very tactical looking, but i heard they are very heavy. I don't care, im not packing it around the woods. Not the highest quality, but the price is 1/5 the others

 

 

what are you guys thoughts?

[ShadowFire 220]

If you want accuracy on the cheap and you seem to be leaning toward the Rem 700 design (can't blame you there) You need a Remington 700 P. Get it at a shop, you're not gonna find one at wally world. It's inexpensive, accurate and has a thicker barrel straight out of the box. Most common chambering for a 700P is .308 so you should definately be able to find one.

 

As for the optics, you get what you pay for. Good optics with Mil-Dot reticles will not be cheap. I like the Mil-dot reticle, some don't but I do. I really understand why the military likes to use them.

 

There is more to an SWS (Sniper Weapon System) than just the rifle and the scope. However since you seem to be starting on the cheap, the Rifle and the scope are a great start. You'll also need a notebook (and several more after that) to make range cards in (easier than keeping track of all of those individual range cards for sure), NEVER throw away a range card, past data often comes in handy when similar situations in an environment present themselves.

Edited March 17, 2012 by ShadowFire

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

30-06 is going to be a better performer than 308 at long range because of the better performance with heavier bullets, but its also more expensive so you wont be able to practice as much. consider a savage instead of a remington, that way you have more money left over to put into glass which is very important, you're not going to shoot 1k yards with a $30 tasco, you want high end nikon, zeiss, swarovski, etc

[paprotective 362]

Maybe look a Savage 10FP ($640 @ Buds) and has Accutrigger standard and 22" barrel in .308.

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

not to your specifications, but something to consider. surplus military rifles can be highly accurate. ammo tends to be less expensive. match grade ammo is available. great choice for starting out in long range shooting. just food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3VBsjcS1hE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2M1hC4c0tc

 

how about no optic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-Lcvyrifw&feature=related

Edited March 17, 2012 by DANE AXE

[belt fed frog 56]

what most have said here is very good input most all High Power matches are shot with .308/7.62 X 51, 300 win mag or 6 mm PPC ,6.5 X 55 Swedish, 6mm BR

 

The remmy 700 is a good action but there is that nagging little problem of Safety Off/Fire with it factory trigger pack ,replace it and no problems but barrel change out is a mother

 

The Savage is far more attractive to me because you can change barrels your self ,Superb After market barrels are readily available in a wide selection of chambering`s As long as the case base fits the bolt /extractor you can shoot that caliber with the correct barrel , they have a good reputation for accuracy and quality .

 

The comment on optics is very important however i have issues with Mil dots 1 Mil @ 1000 yds =36" ( yes you have to subdivide as the dots are calibrated but not evenly ) I find it far easier to work in Minutes Of Angle which is a finer measure by 3X 1 MOA @ 1000 yds=10.47" so the math is intuitively easy .

Unfortunately optics of the quality you need cost more than the rifle !!! by 2X

Oh and Cant mounts to allow a scope to be more centered (internally) at distance are only offered in MOA

the only "Cheap" scope that is good is the Super Sniper series from SWFA (riflescopes dot com ).

For 1000 yard use you need a 5 X 22 power amp scope with a 50-56 mm Main Objective and side or main parallax adjustment your choice and as much internal windage and elevation as possible . For the best results something close in to those specs are best ,a 10X will get you minute of man accuracy at best .

Night Force is the largest internal adjustment at 90 MOA total in both directions and bloody expensive But shoot 50 it is not a matter of If you will break a scope but When !!! Any scope worth a damn has a lifetime warranty, Night Force is a 2 week turn around for repair or reticule swap and tune up only costs 125$ and some of the very best reticules you could ever want Mil Dot , MOA all flavors of them ,Leupold MkIII and MK 4`s excellent , Swarovski superb ,Super Sniper a real surprise oh they break on a 50 once, they fix it and they seem to last ,glass is nice for such a "cheap scope" $400 (a lot of guys who shoot the $$$$ scopes have one in the range box as a spare)

 

Now you have to take what i have said and understand i come from the higher caliber 50 BMG class sniper group over 30 years retired for 16 that means i am Old School and a lot available today was not even at my retirement . So my opinions are going to be colored by my experience , i know tricks you young pups have never heard of that win matches !!!

 

The true key to 1000 yard shooting is a good accurate rifle ,good glass ,the right load for Your rifle (it is unique like a finger print so what shoots great in someone else`s rifle will not hit a barn in yours, smaller the caliber , smaller the problem but still a problem ) these only make up 30% of the equation , The wingnut on the trigger is 70% of it , reading mirage( this is why most Military scope are 10X way less mirage effect ,wind and knowing what the speed and direction will do to the bullet in flight (some very unexpected thing if you don`t know) ,how topography and wind interact extraordinarily important even on a groomed range i know of several that wind direction interacts with topography so much that it looks like shot gun hit the target 6' Sq and wind from any other directions these guys shoot sub MOA consistently

One range even has a name for that wind feature the Troll I Know what is happening but even i would have trouble with the Troll with the wind from 12 or 6 o clock and a horizontal rotor forms so you are shooting thru a low speed tornado , wind up or down on the front side and and reverse on the far side, 600 yards out no visual cues of the wind velocity or direction in rotor all but impossible smoke it and you have a chance a small one . Remember time of flight of the bullet about 2-3 seconds at 1000

 

So you can see at that range small things have Great effect on accuracy and are directly human factor related not equipment

 

My advice learn the wind by finding a small brook watch the water flow ,change the bottom contour and watch again , rinse and repeat (a bottle of food dye might help) and as you watch think of how shooting from different directions across , with it ,at angles the flow . A right or left wind will cause the projectile to climb or drop depending on the engraving of the rifling direction, amount varies with angle of wind and velocity . Once you know the wind and know what projectiles in flight do in relationship to it ,it is never easy but easier and Nothing is more important than Time on Trigger !!!!

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

how about no optic?

Edited March 17, 2012 by DANE AXE

[belt fed frog 56]

DANE AXE,

Yes it can be done Palma class is no optics 1000 yards prone position and yes they shoot sub MOA i could do it on a range as a young man with superb eyesight , now i can`t use iron sights my near vision is shot ,so pistol is a challenge for me but i manage pretty well .

When i was young a 16 Oz propane at 800 yards with an SVT 40 7.62 X 54R Iron sights ,off hand or seated on ground elbows braced on knees never more than 5 shots to hit it (it is 4" Dia. x12" tall this is a sub MOA shot in width not height ,the new style ones 6 X 9" sub MOA in width and just over 1 MOA high at 800)

Using a bench is a bit of a cheat to me ,i am a surface shooter(snake in the grass) ,on the ground in the dirt , bipod maybe a monopod too, studied Creedmore 1890`s match shooting style positions (beat the snot out of the Irish national team with homemade US built Sharps rifles against the very best European made rifles ). had to use them occasionally , they work very well for all the contortions They may seem crazy to a modern smokeless shooter but once you go to ground and concealment is your only protection under the correct conditions they work and offer a shape that veiled is un noticed by the human eye with optics if you are force to setup in the open well ahead of time and your field craft is good (there are other options depending on conditions, terrain ,set up time, if possible other wise the Stalk never an easy task even for the best) .

 

I do like your choice of rifle though one of the best ever made and extremely accurate , the Swiss do noting by half measures, it is part of their national pride and identity . You ever take the butt plate off ? i ask because most all have the name and address of who it was issued to on a piece of paper under the plate and a number of shooters have made contact with the original owners to the pleasure of both parties or their families .

 

Nice shooting conditions and shooting too , you give your load , do you weigh each component group in sets of very close (bullets and brass too) and load that way ? slap them together and shoot weight does not matter?

 

I will let you in on a Trade Secret that goes back to WW I, snipers weighed the entire cartridge and grouped accordingly , you want the ones that are very close in weight all the rest are blasting fodder the ones you select out are going to be the most consistent accurate shooting it Works and won matches . In those days they had to use issue ammo and this is how they selected the most accurate ammo out of a box or belt and turned the rest back . I my self was taught this , de Linked more belts than i care to remember, still have my treasured 100 year old Kodak two pan balance scale and use it to this day even with my hand loads for accuracy .

The M-24 and M-40 use ammo loaded just for that specific rifle by serial number with the greatest of care for consistency of each component (out of tolerance in the trash), lot of time and money , i can get the same or better results downrange by careful loading but grouping by entire cartridge weight !

 

.

Edited March 18, 2012 by belt fed frog

[Sirex 34]

I had nice Mauser in .308 that shot well, but sold it to buy a Remington 700 ADL Varmint with heavy barrel and scope. I got mine in .308 since .308 is common and shared with my Saiga .308, so less caliber variance to deal with. I got mine with heavy 26" bbl and cheapish but usable (for now) scope at Dick's Sporting Goods for about $500.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

what are you guys thoughts?

Go to Zac Smith's site. Start with this article: http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/

 

Realize that good (factory) ammo for this is EXPENSIVE. You'll be about a buck a round for match grade ammo in bulk (Really good prices on Federal Gold Medal, boxes of 500), and it doesn't make a lot of sense to use crappy ammo when trying to do long range precision shooting. Look at Zak's discussion of the economics, and he assumes you are reloading.

[jimmy21 18]

i think this is the scope i have decided on.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Viper-6-5-20x44-Riflescope-Reticle/dp/B002SCV3BS

 

 

what you guys think. Its budget...... but not TOO budget.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

It appears to be a second focal plane reticle. This is undesirable, particuarly on a scope that goes to 20x. At 20x it's like looking through a straw, and the only way the reticle works in a second focal plane scope is at maximum magnfification. You should look for a first focal plane reticle.

 

Also, life is easier if the reticle and the turrets are calibrated in the same unit, either mils or MOA.

[jimmy21 18]

It appears to be a second focal plane reticle. This is undesirable, particuarly on a scope that goes to 20x. At 20x it's like looking through a straw, and the only way the reticle works in a second focal plane scope is at maximum magnfification. You should look for a first focal plane reticle.

 

Also, life is easier if the reticle and the turrets are calibrated in the same unit, either mils or MOA.

 

maybe you could suggest a scope?

[RobRez 1,895]

Either you WILL hunt with it or you WON'T. You say you will only use it for targets, but want to have a hunting option, You say that the weight of the rifle & stock doesn"t matter?? You really need to decide what this rifle will be. A 15lb. range toy is NO FUN to tote around the woods. Sounds like you want a pimped out Mall-Ninja Range toy, on the cheap......Kinda like a $50 Mercedes.......

I think you should get a solid rifle, Float the barrel and Bed the action, and start reloading. Most normal Hunting rifles are accurate enough for the job. Are you killing people with it?...,..probably not, so why do you call it a "Sniper rifle"??? Adding the words Sniper or Tactical serve only to raise the price of products, you simply need a good ol'hunting rifle. Most calibers, 30-06, 7mm mag etc. can reach out that far pretty well.

The old saying is true..."You should be spending at least as much on your optics as you did on the rifle.

The idea of getting a simple Savage rifle, Float & Bed the sucker, load your own, and save a bit of cash. learn the tricks of shooting 1000yds, then see if you need a better stock, seems like a cheap and easy way to go.

[jimmy21 18]

I know your just tyring to be helpful, and i appreciate that, but its gotten a little off track. Im planning this rifle to go out and punch paper at a few hundred yards. i know if im not going to be toting it through the woods on an all day hike. But i could see using it in a tree stand or something of that sort. My point was that i want a caliber to have some some knock down power. I've never in my life been hunting and that is saying something. I live on the coast of oregon where EVERYONE hunts. I have no desire to go out and shoot a deer. Also, i know your just trying to be helpful, but its obvious that your needs are much different than mine. I wrote sniper rifle, because you knew exactly what i meant when you read it. Maybe i should change the title to "setting up long range rifle with pistol grip and bipod"????? Also when i say 1000 yards, its just like what i was saying about the caliber for shooting deer. I may never take 1000 yard shot. I just want a rifle capable. I will start out with 100-200 yards and work my way up from there. I may never take a shot farther than 500. I just want a rifle capable of reaching out there if i decide i want to put in the time and effort to learn ultra long distance shooting.

 

 

I just thought this forum would understand the whole thing about "looks." I have no desire what so ever to own a saiga 762x39 "hunting carbine" But i can't wait to own a fully converted saiga ak-74 replica. Basically the same gun, except one will cost me tiwice as much and look different. Same thing with i have no desire to own my grandfathers deer rifle, but i can't wait to set up my "long range rifle with pistol grip and bipod"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on that note, can anyone suggest a scope?

Edited March 22, 2012 by jimmy21

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

......Kinda like a $50 Mercedes.......

 

 

hey, you better quit making fun of my shit

 

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

maybe you could suggest a scope?

Not for what you want to spend. I've been there. I bought a ~$900 Remington 700P and went out to find a $700 scope for it. I ended up buying a $1600 IOR FFP 3x18 scope with mil turrets and reticle. Mostly because it was the least expensive variable power scope that I could find that had FFP mil dot and mil reticle that got good reviews on Snipers Hide etc about 3 years ago when I bought it. It is a good scope but I found the 18x was almost never needed. 10-14 power would have worked fine.

 

A Lupold 110080 Mark 4 LR/T 3.5-10x40 M5 Riflescope would work, but it's $1300 from Botac. Which is not the best place in hte world to buy stuff, but they are typically about the least expensive place out there. 10x with good glass is usually better than a mediocre 20x at long range. Most everyone at the precison shooting course I took had Leupold scopes, other then me and the guy with the Millet.

 

However American Rifleman this month had a review of a new Weaver 4-20x50 30mm FFP scope that SWFA is selling for $800, and Optics Planet for $780. It isn't perfect (it has 1/4 moa turrets vs 0.1 mil) but it looks interesting. Review is on page 82 of April 2012. You might look into that.

 

And I really suggest you read the series by Zak Smith before you buy anything gun or optic.

[RobRez 1,895]

I surely don"t intend on sounding like a jerk, sorry. You are asking for a tough bill to fill. I think most of us have been in a similar situation and found that going the cheap, or inexpensive route just doesn't get you what you really need for this project.

If you are happy with a 500yd range, that opens up the tolerance level of your optics quality, and gets you down to the more affordable scopes. Also, for a really nice stock that fits you well, it can cost a bundle, as I am sure you already know.

The basic fact is that going for the low-end on these and the rifle, ultimately may seem like a waste of money. I have found in my own experience that saving more and waiting is better.

Sorry, but I cannot think of any optics that are in the $150 to $300 range that are really good for 1000yds.

I CAN say that when you choose your pistol grip stock, buy it in person, not online. At least check 'em out live, and hold it, handle it a bit and make sure the angle of the grip is good for you!

[xICEMANx 13]

Simmons Whitetail classic. You can get with the mildot recticle. I have the duplex or whatever it's called. 6-20x. It's a very good scope for the money. I built a similar setup to what your asking minus the pistol grip. I purchased a Marlin XS7 in .308, got the scope and bipod. I'm in it under $500. It's very accurate, though I haven't taken more than 200 yd shots so far.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/168462/simmons-whitetail-classic-rifle-scope-65-20x-50mm-adjustable-objective-mil-dot-reticle-matte?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Optics+-+Scopes+-+12X+and+Greater-_-PriceCompListing-_-168462

[jimmy21 18]

I surely don"t intend on sounding like a jerk, sorry. You are asking for a tough bill to fill. I think most of us have been in a similar situation and found that going the cheap, or inexpensive route just doesn't get you what you really need for this project.

If you are happy with a 500yd range, that opens up the tolerance level of your optics quality, and gets you down to the more affordable scopes. Also, for a really nice stock that fits you well, it can cost a bundle, as I am sure you already know.

The basic fact is that going for the low-end on these and the rifle, ultimately may seem like a waste of money. I have found in my own experience that saving more and waiting is better.

Sorry, but I cannot think of any optics that are in the $150 to $300 range that are really good for 1000yds.

I CAN say that when you choose your pistol grip stock, buy it in person, not online. At least check 'em out live, and hold it, handle it a bit and make sure the angle of the grip is good for you!

 

 

I had origianlly budgeted $1000 for the entire setup. When i figured out that wasn't going to happen. I now have budgeted 1500. Its not a case of having to "save up" or anything like that. I have plenty of money, its just hard for me to justify spending more money on a rifle that i'll probably (realistically) only shoot once a year. I hate to admit it, but i think i buy guns more often than i actually shoot them. Seems like i buy a new gun at least once a year, and i don't think ive been shooting in 3 or 4 years. Its hard for me to justify bumping my scope budget from 500 to 1500 when in my eyes, they will suit my needs exactly the same. Needless to say, i intend to start shooting my guns more often. I know for a fact im never going to be shooting competitions or anything like that. If i end up getting hooked on long range shooting and can justify the purchase at that point, i'll spend the money at that point

 

im still thinking that vortex scope is my best option so far. I like the "no questions asked warrenty" Whether its $100 or $1000, i don't want to get stuck with an expensive paper weight

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

for shooting that kind of range you want really good glass, it's not just about having a durable scope that will hold zero, you need one that's going to be clear at that range. if i had a $1500 budget i'd spend $1000 on the scope and $500 on the rifle

[jpg366 2]

What is practicality of 1000 yds in SHTF? Who has that kind of field of fire, much less the ability to ID the target? Better to lay low and let 'em move on.

 

If we think about 2-300 yds then we are into Mosins and perhaps iron sights. That's really on a budget!

[Scott Kenny 144]

I know your just tyring to be helpful, and i appreciate that, but its gotten a little off track. Im planning this rifle to go out and punch paper at a few hundred yards. i know if im not going to be toting it through the woods on an all day hike. But i could see using it in a tree stand or something of that sort. My point was that i want a caliber to have some some knock down power. I've never in my life been hunting and that is saying something. I live on the coast of oregon where EVERYONE hunts. I have no desire to go out and shoot a deer. Also, i know your just trying to be helpful, but its obvious that your needs are much different than mine. I wrote sniper rifle, because you knew exactly what i meant when you read it. Maybe i should change the title to "setting up long range rifle with pistol grip and bipod"????? Also when i say 1000 yards, its just like what i was saying about the caliber for shooting deer. I may never take 1000 yard shot. I just want a rifle capable. I will start out with 100-200 yards and work my way up from there. I may never take a shot farther than 500. I just want a rifle capable of reaching out there if i decide i want to put in the time and effort to learn ultra long distance shooting.

What we're saying is that a 15lb rifle is a right heavy bitch to carry all day. My PSL tips the scales at ~13lbs with the big scope mounted, and I hate carrying her around. You're not going to *want* to hunt with a rifle that heavy, it's just going to be a safe/bench queen.

 

The current US Military rig is a Remington 700 in .300 Winchester Magnum, with a McMillan (IIRC) stock and a big suppressor. And about $2000 worth of scope sitting on top. Roughly $5000 all told, and the rifle itself is the cheapest part of the system. $800 for the rifle, probably $1200 for the stock, $1000 or so for the suppressor, and $2000 in optics on top.

 

I bought a Remington 770 in .243 for a hunting rifle last year at Cabela's 4th of July sale. Awesome trigger, bolt is annoying. Nothing like a real military rifle. But I don't need to cycle the bolt in a hurry, I can usually take my time with the .243.

 

Buy good ammo, and shoot lots. That's the only way to get good at shooting. It's cheaper to reload if you shoot more than about 1000 rounds a year, but that's your call.

 

on that note, can anyone suggest a scope?

Nothing wrong with that Vortex Viper. I have one almost exactly like it (I bought the 50mm lens version), and normally leave it set at 14x. 14x is where the Mildots are accurate on my scope, I'd assume it is the same for the smaller lens version.

 

The Vortex Viper is the absolute cheapest scope I would use, because my eyes aren't good enough to use a lower magnification like a 4x POSP. At least not over 400m.

 

First focal plane scopes are nice to have, but they're another $200 more than their second focal plane equivalents (so now you're talking $1000, not $800, for the scope). With a variable-power scope, you need to know what the accurate point is for the Mil-dots (and the Vortex scopes are marked at that point). As long as you understand what the mildot is telling you, you can use a second focal plane scope.

 

My priorities for a dedicated sniper rig (in terms of how much money I'm going to spend) are:

1) Ammunition. It'd be like using regular unleaded gas in a Ferrari and complaining that it doesn't get up and go.

 

2) Optics. If I can't see what I'm shooting at, how can I hit it?

 

3) Rifle. yes, least amount of money on the rifle itself. $500 or so for a hunter-grade Remington or Savage is plenty, but I still want to buy myself one of the Accuracy International AWP rifles (that the brits are using as the L118 sniper rifle).

 

Yes, I would consider sniping with a $300 Rem770.

[DoubleTapDrew 4]

I would reconsider the stock. I put a choate on my 700 to replace the factory wood one and accuracy went to hell (from sub MOA to 2-3moa). The action "bedding" area was all plastic and looked like a whale's vagina.

I'd go with something like a bell & carlson ($200 neighborhood) or (for about $100 more) HS Precision. I think they both make pistol grip style stocks if you like those, plus they have aluminum bedding blocks and weigh 2-3lbs. I put my 700 action into a HS Precision and the accuracy came back (actually it's shooting better than before).

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Yeah, my 700P came with an HS precision and the whole thing is more accurate then me. I have urges to buy a folding McCree from time to time, but I've held off. Someday (I tell myself) I'm going to buy the 20" R5 and a McCree and a SF .308 suppressor.

[1mile50 102]

Savage Model 10 FLP "Flat Top" in .308, Choate - Major Plaster Varmint Stock, Timney Trigger Set to 1#, Leupold Long Range Target Vari-X III 8.5-25x50mm, Nightforce 2 piece rail w/20 minute slope.

 

Set up the rifle you want. Not what someone else wants. But, if you don't learn to reload, you will never realize your rifle's full potential. Not to mention, factory match loads in .308 are not cheap, not by a long shot.

 

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Federal Gold Medal is a buck a round, in cartons of 500. It adds up quick.

[1mile50 102]

Federal Gold Medal is a buck a round, in cartons of 500. It adds up quick.

 

Yes, and Handcrafted Match .308 runs about $.53 a round.

[jmzzl 146]

The SPS Varmint is pretty nice. I had one in .223, but was stupid and I traded it away. I'm looking for another one. I also had an SPS tactical in .308 that I put an HS Precision magazine kit on, with a Bell & Carlson stock. Stocky's Stocks used to have some B&C stocks for a little over $200.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Federal Gold Medal is a buck a round, in cartons of 500. It adds up quick.

 

Yes, and Handcrafted Match .308 runs about $.53 a round.

Plus your up-front equipment investment and whatever you think your time is worth for round development and production time. If you shoot a lot it is worth it. If you don't shoot multiple thousands of rounds a year it might not be.