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MD Arms Double Stack Mag Patent


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#31 Saiga Power

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:43 AM

So does this mean that:

The design works flawlessly
You are feverishly warehousing a billion of these things
Just waiting for all your patent paperwork to finalize to release these to us without fear of someone stealing the design?

#32 havok

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:51 AM

He could have been selling them since sept last year with a "patent pending" if he had them in hand. So I would say no he has no warhousing billions or still waiting the mfg game.

#33 Russian Hammer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:01 AM

can't wait to get the promag version Posted Image
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#34 AtlSaiga

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:02 AM

maybe I don't know enough about manufacturing but once you have the design and the patent, why aren't there production lines pouring these things out the door? what else is there to do? there's no more figuring, just turning the machines to ON and done....right?

Edited by AtlSaiga, 29 March 2012 - 09:02 AM.


#35 Peckaldee

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:45 AM

<<<<<< patiently waiting
Roll Tide

#36 EWOKETEER

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:00 AM

It makes sense for Mike to have waited to release any more info or products until the patent was finalized. And, who knows, he may have been making a stockpile pending finalization. If so, he is showing wisdom in doing so--something along the Proverb that goes something like "A wise man hold his counsel, but a fool tells all..." If/when these DS's hit the market, I'll definitely will be getting at least a couple, funds permitting, of course...
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#37 Caspian

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

maybe I don't know enough about manufacturing but once you have the design and the patent, why aren't there production lines pouring these things out the door? what else is there to do? there's no more figuring, just turning the machines to ON and done....right?


because there is a huge difference than making a prototype and making the molds for mass production. given mikes past, this will happen. however, since there is no Version 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 of the drum, that tells you it was perfected from the start. no need to refund money on crap designs or spend a ton on shipping to send out replacements. doing it right the first time is much cheaper than doing it over and over faster.

he will perfect it before releasing it. that takes time.

BTW, mike, i am willing to trade packaging labor for mags. Posted Image
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#38 6500rpm

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:09 PM

Mike sent a preliminary batch out for BETA testing and anything he had that didn't live up to his expectations no matter how minor durring final production were sold off as blems on Gunbroker. I'm sure C&S would be down with testing these too, got a glimpse of something cool a few weeks ago.

#39 havok

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:13 PM


maybe I don't know enough about manufacturing but once you have the design and the patent, why aren't there production lines pouring these things out the door? what else is there to do? there's no more figuring, just turning the machines to ON and done....right?


because there is a huge difference than making a prototype and making the molds for mass production. given mikes past, this will happen. however, since there is no Version 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 of the drum, that tells you it was perfected from the start. no need to refund money on crap designs or spend a ton on shipping to send out replacements. doing it right the first time is much cheaper than doing it over and over faster.

he will perfect it before releasing it. that takes time.

BTW, mike, i am willing to trade packaging labor for mags. Posted Image


The first run drum is made thinner with thicker rib's and looks like it was made with differant material then the second run drum.

#40 Cameron Hadley

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:45 PM

Many people just don't understand how risky moving forward and investing time and money into this weapon has been! When it comes to plastic mags, I personally think Mike takes the time to do it right, right materials, right design, right timing. Producing anything for this weapon in the past has been very risky with them threatening to banned it every other week, and It takes big balls to stay in the game and to keep throwing tons of money into new product lines, tooling, manufacturing, etc. My hats off to you Mike for even trying to do this, let alone moving forward, to patent and no doubt production. We have risk everything in the worst economy in our life time, to take this weapon from a duck gun to a platform that allows people to walk into their local range and go "yeah that's right, i own that!"
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#41 Magineer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:02 PM

Posted Image

Edited by Magineer, 29 March 2012 - 05:44 PM.


#42 Magineer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:10 PM

Posted Image

Edited by Magineer, 29 March 2012 - 05:42 PM.


#43 Magineer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:30 PM

Posted Image

Edited by Magineer, 29 March 2012 - 05:43 PM.


#44 roachtron

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:40 PM

Why are you turning this into an argument about patents? If someone builds something new they should be able to protect the idea from copies. I live 10 miles outside of dayton and I would be willing to do some beta testing. I'll bring the ammo and my saiga 12.Posted Image

#45 Magineer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

Posted Image

Edited by Magineer, 29 March 2012 - 05:43 PM.


#46 Jbanda1213

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:42 PM

I wish we could actually get some useful info on these products. Instead everyone becomes instantly critical and chases the man away.
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#47 Cameron Hadley

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:27 PM


Why are you turning this into an argument about patents? If someone builds something new they should be able to protect the idea from copies. I live 10 miles outside of dayton and I would be willing to do some beta testing. I'll bring the ammo and my saiga 12.Posted Image


Why? I personally feel the subject of this patent is not novel and wrongfully granted. It's all semantics, though, because the competition will be there if the pursuit is profitable. Boasting that you have "the only way" to do something is just asking for trouble. Hell, I'm almost ready to jump in the pool just to prove him wrong. There's always a better way to catch a mouse...

But, yeah, sorry about the patent tangent.

Well get your ass in there software programmer! Quit running your mouth about all the shit you can do based off the books you've read. Build it, hell wasn't you over in Red Jackets area bitching about how sharp the edges was on your break, realllyyy! Can't seem to run a file but you're going to take a stab at a double stack? Maybe you should start with a file and get good with it before you come in here telling people who have been industry leaders in their market place how much you know! Now I'm sure you're going to respond with some kind of snappy come back, but just keep this is mind, you're working on pissing off all the major business vendors here, people who don't just talk about doing shit, but get shit done! Which tells me your life span is going to be pretty short lived here, if you know so damn much, and you're so amazing where's your banner on this forum Jack! Oh thats right you're just other passer through telling all us poor ole dumb asses how shits done! Why don't you enlighten all of us with your designs, products, customers. The arrogance of some people!
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#48 ChileRelleno

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:07 PM

Magineer, I do believe Cameron just owned your blathering ass.
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#49 Magineer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:14 PM

Thou shalt not share unless thou one of the sheep.

Edited by Magineer, 29 March 2012 - 05:36 PM.


#50 Cameron Hadley

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:31 PM

Get in the pool! Wasn't that your statement or do you have amnesia all a sudden? Oh, and if you don't mind post some of the products you've designed, invented, brought to market, any of the above, so's we can know who we's are dealing with!
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#51 Mike Davidson

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:38 PM


So does this mean that:

The design works flawlessly
You are feverishly warehousing a billion of these things
Just waiting for all your patent paperwork to finalize to release these to us without fear of someone stealing the design?



Not trying to be mean or shut down the party, but I'd encourage the competition to send a request for reevaluation of the patent to the USPTO. There are several grounds upon which it could be contested, including:

- It's just the inverse of existing railing on ALL S12 magazines. I just don't see the nonobviousness of the approach. The "others haven't done it" defense might work--be interesting to see how that would play out.

- It's not yet a product; Diligent in reducing the invention to practice? That's a solid "no." -- Challenging novelty is always an option

- Would a person of average skill in the trade consider it novel? Forcing MD Arms to defend what constitutes the "invention" could lead to at least a weakened patent (the single piece follower is most likely safe).

- Mike has opened to door for declaratory judgement by creating reasonable apprehension


Did I mention I hate patents? It's probably my software engineering background... software patents are the worst kind of evil.


Wish you the best, Mike.


You are completely wrong on your claims on my design. You obviously don know what our looking at regarding the design of my double stack or the other mags. You wish me the best of luck but call for other to challenge me. That's a strange fit. Did you know SGM already tried for the double stack design. They said it couldn't be done if I recall right. Will their argument be that they tried and failed so I shouldnt have a design they can't copy? You state you are tempted to do a double stack. Let's see it. How will you achieve this. You claim to be a software engineer. I'm betting your more of a reverse engineer. If it were the other way around you would favor patent instead of hate them... That is the greed and jealousy talking too. You think others should challenge me to make me spend money. You said you would if you were my competitors. Do you mind posting the links to all the case where you have challenged patents? I'm betting you have never challenged one. Yeah, it costs good money to challenge too. Maybe even more to challenge. You speak like you know I couldn't afford the fight. I'm not much of a bragger but here is a glimps a few days ago of my situation, http://www.gunbroker...Item=278511484. Time to fight it? That's what patent attorneys are for... Did Izhmash take ownership of Molot over infringement a few years back? What about Bailey and HK? Bailey had to shred his dies, pay 2 or 3 million and give up his right to do any HK work if I'm remembering that correctly. There is usually much bigger risk involved with infringement. Is someone going to build a set of molds to challenge me? I doubt it. Also I never said someone else couldn't come up with a design of there own. What I did say was it would likely be inferior, complicated and not well accepted next to mine. I do expect to be challenged some day on the patent. I'm not worried about that. I'll address it if/when need be. I'm betting though someone's best bet (their easiest and most profitable) would be to contact me for a licensing agreement... I'm not goIn to argue this any further.

I'll end this with Bill Gate's won the rights to patent software for a reason... Good luck to you...
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#52 ChileRelleno

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:40 PM

"The arrogance of some people!" -- My point exactly.


What you seem to overlook is I have a right to my opinion. I've not attacked anyone personally, nor undermined the quality of any product. Sure, I was a little surprised by the sharpness of the Immobilizer brake. Didn't say I couldn't fix it or that it wasn't one hell of a muzzle brake. FYI -- It works EXACTLY as described -- AWESOME.

On to the double stack patent...

Mike's done great work with the drum and now answering the call for a double stack box magazine. That doesn't mean his patent is valid or his creations novel. Steve Jobs, famously, never "invented" anything. Instead, he saw the potential of scattered technology and created combinations that changed the world.

Bottom line: Making the case that a patent is invalid takes nothing away from the quality and utility of one's work. I believe I've been clear on that from the start.




Magineer, I do believe Cameron just owned your blathering ass.




Nope.

Yep.
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#53 Saiga Power

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:43 PM

Link didnt work. I think most of us are just chomping at the bit for a date, but it doesnt sound like a date is available yet

Thanks for posting

#54 Mike Davidson

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:44 PM

Here is the link I tried to post... http://www.gunbroker...?Item=278511484
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#55 ARMOR

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:51 PM



This is definately coming to market. Multiple capacities. Will take both 2 3/4 and 3".

As far as patents... I never patented the drum. There are to many different ways someone could make a drum. I didn't account for someone just coping the key features though. I was considering someone with the same passion I had. I didn't consider the cheap cloners only in it for a quick buck.

The double stack I definitely wanted to patent... Some would say and some have said there was no way to do it. There was in fact one very simple way... My patent will cover all feasible variations and even a not so feasible one. Getting around a patent isn't nearly as easy as some think either. You have to have a good patent (good attorney) and be willing for a fight if need be. I have a great firm I work with. They are all patent attorneys, all they do... I have an advantage to that I am located in a hub of filed patents (Dayton). Willing to fight? I don't want a fight but am completely prepared to give it all I have. I fight very hard too. My attorney is in fact the person who sent me a link today to the same thread that King Cash linked and that made me check here... I filed the patent a good while ago and my attorney filed in a manor to keep it form the public for 18 months. My attorney is on it. He knows what we have... This patent isn't limited to saiga-12 mags. This patent isn't limited to 12ga either.


Isn't the drum you made just a USAS 12 drum with a Saiga 12 feed tower?


And a unique dummy round and the geometry changed to feed at a different angle and...


Thanks, but I knew that part.
I used to have a C and S 9mm MP5 drum that was setup kinda the same way. (sorta)
I was just curious about modifying a drum body for another project.

Edited by ARMOR, 29 March 2012 - 05:53 PM.

HART SYSTEMS

#56 Jbanda1213

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:52 PM

Nothing to see here people... move along.

#57 Cameron Hadley

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:54 PM

Thou shalt not share unless thou one of the sheep.

Yeah, kinda thought not!

#58 BuggedOut

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 07:36 PM

Finally!!
Please please pleeese make them for Akdals too!

#59 Bigchris

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:23 PM

Congrats Mike on being the first with the new DS's!!! When can we expect a release date????
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#60 6500rpm

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:21 PM

http://www.gunbroker...?Item=278511484 -Mike D's the Saiga 12 version of Duck Dynasty! Just go's to show that "Those that can, Do", and those that do it well make a shit load of money in the end, and get to own all kinds of fun toys. popcorn eat that shit.....




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