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Scorpion0631

Ejecting Problem

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So I´ve had my Saiga for 3 Months now and i keep getting shells stuck between the bolt because they aren't getting thrown out properly(roughly every 10th shot).

The first 200 rounds I didn't get this problem. Iv'e tried all kinds of different ammo from 55gr to 62gr and 63gr (PMC, WOLF, Tulammo, Geco, TopShot). Im using 2 10round Izhmash Magazines.

 

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Any Ideas?

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Ok so I took my Bolt apart and cleaned everything. Today I went to the range and still got the same problem. I took Pictures everytime.

 

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I was using PMC 55gr.

 

I noticed that the typical AK dent was on the shells, meaning they must be getting stuck in the ejector or they are maybe bouncing back into the reciever?

 

How can i check the spring or ejector for faults?

Edited by Scorpion0631

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Hello again, after years of just accepting my ejection problem I started looking into it again. I went to the range and shot about 20 rounds and got 4-5 FTE, exactly as before, stovepiping and even getting stuck in the far left of the receiver.

My extractor did not seem to be to short or worn off, my bolt wasnt that loose eihter. Looking at the shells that got stuck I noticed it was weird that they had the typical ak dent, so they must of been on their way out but bounced back in. I loaded a Mag and just charged the gun by hand without the dust cover on, everytime the bullets would eject the same no hangups. With the dustcover on however they would somtimes just kind of flop out, the ejection pattern was random.

My conclusion was that the shells are probably ejecting and hitting the dust cover in a weird way and therefor getting flung back into the receiver.

I bought myself a soviet ribbed dustcover, when comparing to the factory one, the opening was a bit longer on the soviet one.

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Im not entirely sure if this is really the problem, but when going to the range I shot 40 rounds without any jams. I was using steel case ammo(Tulammo)  so I'll have to test it out on the brass case aswell.

But so far so good.

I'll keep this thread updated in case anyone else has a similar issue.

Edited by Scorpion0631
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You could shoot it with the cover off and then on to verify your theory.

 

I believe it is probably the cover anb your new cover will clear the problem. 

 

Interesting though  thanks for the info.

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You'll notice on the ribbed cover that there is a more defined roll on the metal that rolls inward to make the ejection port when the die in the press comes down to strike and create the top cover from the sheet metal.  I wonder if some of these top covers are made from worn out dies or incorrect geometry.

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I went to the range today to see if the dustcover would fix the FTE with brass casing aswell...

Out of 10 shots I had 3 FTE.

I'm going to get some different brands of ammo soon and test if it is just due to the brand or generally brass casings.

 

Must say though, with the 52gr bullets my accuracy is quite good, just hard to find that weight here in Germany, not many brands(Remington,Hornady and Sellier & Bellot

Edited by Scorpion0631

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First things first. With some dummy rounds manually eject them to see if it is an ejector problem.

If they eject then your bolt is not going back far enough most likely and could be the spring or piston hanging up but my bet is you have a plugged gas hole at the barrel or you are losing gas before the piston some how or it got pressed on wrong at the factory.

Most 556 Saigas tend to be over gassed so I bet this is what is happening if they manually eject.

Also it could be your mag what kind are you using but if it manually ejects then the bolt is not going back far enough.

These guns really eject along way ,so if you are not throwing the cases out like that it points to your bolt not going back far or fast enough.

If you reload try going a little hotter on a few loads. This will confirm a gas issue

 

Also PM Mancat here as he would have other solutions

Good luck

Edited by jerry52

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Just another thought

You might have some binding going on with the bolt or piston it should travel smoothly in and out .

If the bolt pulls hard or goes in to battery slow this also could be your problem.

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Im using the standard 10 round mags without a buffer.

I've got a spare carrier spring and have changed them inbetween shooting, so I dont think its that.

I cant get my head around the fact that the shells have the ak dent on them, this must indicate that the shells are on their way out or not?

I have manually reloaded to check if the ejector was worn or faulty but didnt have any problems doing so.

Im going to get some different ammo and test without the dustcover on and get someone to film it.

If the gas hole is plugged hiw could i clean it?

 

Thanks for all the feedback so far

Edited by Scorpion0631

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Today was Range Day.

 

I got myself some steel cased Tulammo and some Lithuanian Military ball.

I started off with the Lithuanian ammo and loaded up my Promag and the Bakelite with 10 rounds each.

Out of the 20 rounds I got 3 FTE's

 

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Notice how this case flipped and got stuck but yet it has the AK dent !?

 

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I then loaded up the Steel cased Tulammo and had 0 FTE's out of 20 rounds.

 

Looking at the cases one can notice they have quite the gash where the ejector hits, exspecially on the brass cases. The gun must be so overgassed that the ejector just cuts through them.

The steel cases didnt have a gash but a noticeable dent from the ejector.

 

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What do you guys think?

Edited by Scorpion0631

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Promag mags SUCK. One of the worst if not the worst magazine you can buy for the Saiga rifle.

Somehow they surprisingly made a decent S12 mag.

The ejector dent is common with the Saiga 223.  It's done on purpose to distinguish military from civillian(forensics purpose), some European countries .

​You are wasting money using brass ammo with the Saiga.

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I don't think simply being over gassed would cause this. Tons of AKs are over gassed and eject fine. I think the extractor claw is out of spec or the ejector is too far back.

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You never said if ejecting manually gets the same results.

Does this happen only when you rapid fire?

Have you had any slam fires?

Is the ejector pivoting free or is it sticky? Have you removed the ejector to clean and inspect it.

With out a video on this problem we are all guessing.

Time to send it to someone PM cobra see what he says

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Finally looking at the pictures it looks like you ejector is not dropping tight around the case.

Try cleaning it by taking it apart. There may be some milling stuck in there.

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Im sure you mean the extractor claw, I have taken the bolt apart and cleaned it twice after 3 range days. I changed the extractor spring yesterday and will test it on tuesday (ak-74 spring, is a bit longer).

Cleaned the hole gas system as good as I could and everything runs smoothly without getting stuck.

Charging the gun manually does not cause a FTE but im sure its due to the fact that I cannot manually create the same force like the gas does, although the shells still get a nick on the rim from the ejector hitting them.

Is it possible the extractor spring is to strong? It's not easy to push it by hand and when charging the gun by hand and guiding the bolt and carrier by hand into the foward position it will sometimes not be able to pass the rim, i have to give it a extra push. While shooting this does'nt occur.

 

I will send cobra a PM.

 

Thanks for the help so far.

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With out hands on, this is all I can do for you. I love mine and also have a ar mag adapter that I put on.

Do not give up on this rifle it is a sweet shooter in fact I do not have and AR in 556 it is that good.

Everyone who shoots it wants to buy it

Good luck

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Sorry to reply so late to your thread, hope you're still around.

 

What is the ejection pattern of cases, how far away, etc?

 

I suspect that the rifle is overgassed and is affecting the ejection pattern to the point that cases occasionally bounce back into the receiver. As you already noted, the .223 case in an AK action can have a tendency to flip backwards and hit the forward edge of the dust cover. The fact that the addition of an older style ribbed dust cover reduced (but didn't eliminate) the FTEs shows that this may have something to do with it.

 

Here we have this handy video where someone actually captured the action of a Saiga .223 - note how the case comes really close to bouncing right back into the receiver

 

 

I suggest that you buy a couple different recoil springs (another OEM and a Wolff XP) and see where it gets you. You can significantly change the ejection behavior of the .223 case by altering the spring stiffness of the recoil assy.

 

My .223 Saiga I have always felt was overgassed, to the point that I usually swap in a Wolff XP spring & rod if I know I'll be shooting hotter ammo in it. It makes a huge difference in felt recoil and ejection pattern & distance. However it has never malfunctioned due to that. 

 

It's interesting that your original Saiga dust cover had the stamped lip on the ejection port. Mine doesn't that, just a blunt edge. Not sure if this is a design revision or a manufacturing error. 

Edited by mancat
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I would recommend you try a buffer. It would appear to be very over-gassed, and the buffer will absorb some of the excess energy, allowing the spent round to eject properly. From the pics, it looks like the brass is ejecting with way too much force, causing them to bounce back into the action. Another thing to check is the ejector nub in the left side of the receiver - if this is worn,chipped, or too far back the round coming up from the mag can jam the spent brass.

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I cant get my head around the fact that the shells have the ak dent on them, this must indicate that the shells are on their way out or not?

Edited by tbryanh

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I cant get my head around the fact that the shells have the ak dent on them, this must indicate that the shells are on their way out or not?

The dent might be made by the bolt after the shell fails to eject. The shell is wedged between the bolt and barrel, and the bolt hits the side of the shell putting a dent in it.

 

I have seen dents from the bolt on unfired rounds that fail to feed into the chamber after being stripped from the magazine.

 

Edited by tbryanh

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Ok I'm back and motivated, havent been on this thread since my last posts and havent had time to get to the range.

I'll be ordering a Wolff XP spring and give that a try, I might even try and modify the dust cover, that slowmotion video from Mancat sure shows how the shells could get back in the receiver.

I'll report back with my findings soon!

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