Can't Hit The Broad Side of a Barn

[one2za 7]

So, I've had an S12 for a few years now and love it. It shoots well annd seems acurate. I'm 65 now and I decided to make more use of the weapons I have, so I joined a gun club that has many different ranges including an action range, black powder and plenty of trap and skeet. Now I know the S12 is not for shooting clays, but in the past I've seen members posts about doing just that, and since I want to have the most fun and enjoy a variety of shooting, I decided to try it.

 

I bought a Trius One Step Trap, (works fantastic, especially if you shoot alone), and off to the club I went a few weeks back. I hit 4 clays out of 50. Today I returned to the club and ran thru another 50 rounds. This time I didn't hit a thing! I tried various trap adjustments and various choke settings to no avail. I tried altering my technique some too.

 

It is very frustrating. It would seem easier than that to hit something with a shotgun. After all, it creates a wide pattern and it seems acurate with fixed targets. Also there isn't all that uch movement when launched from a trap you are stepping on. I couldn't believe how much I sucked. It felt like I was shooting blanks.

 

So this post is to solicit help and suggestions. Any of you go thru the same thing and find ways to improve?

[gregomega 929]

I shoot clays with mine. Before I had a poly choke and had it set to the tightest grouping which when done, made it possible to turn the clays into dust like my brothers 24" with modified choke. I have since sold the poly choke and have been shooting with just an open bore. The grouping at 30-40 yards is about the size of one of those exercise situp balls. about 65cm or what ever. but If you said you've already tried chokes and such. I wouldn't know what to suggest for you. I still plan to get the tightest grouping choke the have, full I think its called. They make ones specifically for saiga 12.

 

Good luck with your shooting, and dont get too discouraged. If anything you can go buy some watermelons and go have yourself a Gallagher day and blow up some fruit!!!

Edited March 30, 2012 by AZG

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Sounds to me your just a bit rusty. I've had great luck shooting skeet with mine. But it did take me a few rounds to get good as my previous shotty was a remmy 1100, it's just diffrent. But at the end of the day it's just range time.

[WhiskeyMinion 300]

As said above the key to busting clays is practice.

 

Go see where you pattern on paper, and remember to lead the clay

[TonyRumore 1,332]

You're probably missing in exactly the same place every time. If you're leading the bird 5 inches and you miss, don't lead it 5 inches again.....you'll just miss again. Try no lead, 10 inches, 20 inches etc.

 

I would bet though, that you are off, high or low, since you are standing on the trap, there should not be much lead required. Where ever you are aiming and missing....don't aim there again. Try running the sights over the bird, below the bird, etc.

 

Hopefully you don't have to aim high to hit the bird. In that case, your barrel will be covering the target and you won't be able to see it when you get to the trigger point.

 

Tony

[RED333 1,025]

I never could hit fake things moving in the air, but a bird is dead when I shoot at them.

I dont know what it is about clays but I aint any good at it.

[YOT 3,743]

Width-of-the-barrel lead, as a general rule if the clay is flying crossways. It's always worked pretty well for me.

[gunfun 3,931]

I take mine trap shooting all the time. The choke adapter is a plus.

 

When I let freinds try it, thy try to look at the end of the barrel over the target and miss high. What you need to do is sight down your dust cover and gas tube as you would the barrel of a normal shotgun. Throw a pop can on the ground and shoot at it untill you can keep it jumping. Then you will have a good feel for point of aim. Then shoot at clay.

 

The other common problem is rushing. Count to "one' in your head after it feels like time to fire then pull the trigger. You will break a lot more clay when you make yourself slow down. You don't want to aim at the target like you would with a rifle. That makes you freeze. you want to fire as you are flowing through the point of aim. The easiest technique to achieve this is to follow from behind the clay on the same path, moving your barrel slightly faster and fire as your point of aim crosses the target.

[GKW 4]

• One2za I feel your pain. I have been wingshooting for 25+ years and am pretty good with a shotgun. I have tried my S12 on doves and clays and have been dissappointed. I think part of it is the pistol grip. But most of it, I believe, is the site picture. The rifle type sites and the much shorter site radius give a very different look and I just don't have that "feel" that I do with a bead at the end of a long barrel. I have considered taking off the rear site, but it sounds like a pain and I like it for slugs and buckshot. Good advice above by all, but I just think it will take longer to get used to the S12 for wingshooting. I will probably use it for that once in a while for the heck of it, but use one of my "regular" shotguns for serious wingshooting.
  

[patriot 7,197]

Can't hit the broad side of a barn?

 

Do what I did...start by shooting inside the barn.

 

Seriously, put up a large piece of paper with a mark on the center. Aim carefully and squeeze off one shot to see where the center of the pattern is.

Once you know the pattern center and shot spread at a given distance, the rest is just practice.

[scoutjoe 276]

The Saiga-12 sights are a fair amount different from "traditional" shotgun sights, took some time to get used to but I'm good with mine now.

[havok 21]

The Saiga-12 sights are a fair amount different from "traditional" shotgun sights, took some time to get used to but I'm good with mine now.

 

With the S-12 it's site's on or above the gas tube is like haveing a 1'' ribbon on a traditional shotgun. For me it was an easy transition .

[kodaline 178]

The Saiga is NOT a trap gun. It can certainly do well at it, and it works, but it is NOT one.

 

Good trap guns are light, long, they flow and balance well, and they are "pointed" not "aimed."

I would recommend trying your luck with a different, traditional shotgun to see if you can isolate

your problems. If they are just related to the Saiga, perhaps you can pick something up from

your technique with the other gun to fix it.

 

I am not a very good clays shot, but I can hit most of them with an 870, some of them with a Saiga,

and none of them with my Benelli M4.

[ironhead7544 35]

Check your patterns on paper. Might be off. Rifle sights are not the best for shot and may have to be adjusted to hit properly. My guess is you are hitting low.

[incognito485 26]

I'm assuming you have an IZ 109 with rifle sights. I haven't shot clays with my IZ 109 but I have with my Iz 108.................and everyone has a hard time beating me to the clay. And they usually get pissed because I beat them with their fancy Benelli's. But if all you want to do is shoot clays with the gun you can always look to replacing the sight with a ribbed sight like on the 108s. They are ideal for hitting moving targets, especially clays and birds.

[gunfun 3,931]

The Saiga is NOT a trap gun. It can certainly do well at it, and it works, but it is NOT one.

 

Good trap guns are light, long, they flow and balance well, and they are "pointed" not "aimed."

I would recommend trying your luck with a different, traditional shotgun to see if you can isolate

your problems. If they are just related to the Saiga, perhaps you can pick something up from

your technique with the other gun to fix it.

 

I am not a very good clays shot, but I can hit most of them with an 870, some of them with a Saiga,

and none of them with my Benelli M4.

 

Most of this kind of statement has to do with ergonomics and getting used to the gun. Fit the gun so that holding it naturally has the line of sight down the gas tube, just like you would sight down the barrel of your 870. The 870 shoots well for you because it fits you, not because it patterns better. Fit your saiga to you. You should be bringing the gun into your line of sight, not your head down to the gun. Once you have it set up, practice to get consistent in the way you shoulder the gun. A stock that allows for a good cheek weld helps a lot for this. Ignore the pistol sights and point and fire on the swing with a follow through just like you would with a fancy trap gun.

 

You have to unlearn the feel of your old gun and relearn it with this one. Good technique is the same. Just because it has fine sights does not mean you have to pause and aim. The IZ108 models have a vent rib with wings, which I like.

 

Oh, and I have tritium AR sight post that I will put on my 108 rail in place of the bead, so I will have the best of both. I just need to pick up the tap.

[Sian 14]

I'd imagine trap to be difficult with the S12 because of the trigger. Compared to a competition target gun, the S12's lock time is positively GLACIAL.

 

 

Good trap guns are light, long, they flow and balance well, and they are "pointed" not "aimed."

 

 

That's true of skeet and sporting clays guns. Trap guns are heavy like engine block. (I've been shooting trap for 25 years) but you're right. If you can't hit in Trap, it's generally because you don't know where it patterns. 50% or 100% high is common in trap, you need to know where you're *looking*, and make sure that's where the gun shoots.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Sian

[one2za 7]

I'm assuming you have an IZ 109 with rifle sights. I haven't shot clays with my IZ 109 but I have with my Iz 108.................and everyone has a hard time beating me to the clay. And they usually get pissed because I beat them with their fancy Benelli's. But if all you want to do is shoot clays with the gun you can always look to replacing the sight with a ribbed sight like on the 108s. They are ideal for hitting moving targets, especially clays and birds.

Where would I get one?

[magsite20 1,664]

When I shoot skeet / clays I use a few things:

 

· 1^st is the old “clank - clank I’m a tank” thing, meaning rotate for left and right at the hips / waste, and only use your arms for up and down not to swing the gun. Swinging with the arms is usually too fast.

 

· 2^nd start with the gun mounted, once you get better you can start from a low ready but for beginners it’s best to have the gun shouldered and ready to fire.

 

· 3rd shooting clays you know where the target is going to be so use that to you’re advantage. Set up your body’s position to the break the clay about mid field or a little after. Then rotate your body / gun barrel about ½ way back to the house / thrower the clay is coming from so when you see it you can start your rotation / swing to get on it as early as possible.

 

· Finally is another old standard “butt, beak, bang”. What that means is swing through the clay / bird and fire keeping the barrel in motion / don’t stop the swing just because you pulled the trigger. You’ll be a little behind the clay and catch up to it swing through it and then fire keeping the barrel in the swing at all times.

 

Good luck, have fun, and practice.

[PA Shooter 7]

The Saiga is NOT a trap gun. It can certainly do well at it, and it works, but it is NOT one.

 

Good trap guns are light, long, they flow and balance well, and they are "pointed" not "aimed."

I would recommend trying your luck with a different, traditional shotgun to see if you can isolate

your problems. If they are just related to the Saiga, perhaps you can pick something up from

your technique with the other gun to fix it.

 

I am not a very good clays shot, but I can hit most of them with an 870, some of them with a Saiga,

and none of them with my Benelli M4.

 

Most of this kind of statement has to do with ergonomics and getting used to the gun. Fit the gun so that holding it naturally has the line of sight down the gas tube, just like you would sight down the barrel of your 870. The 870 shoots well for you because it fits you, not because it patterns better. Fit your saiga to you. You should be bringing the gun into your line of sight, not your head down to the gun. Once you have it set up, practice to get consistent in the way you shoulder the gun. A stock that allows for a good cheek weld helps a lot for this. Ignore the pistol sights and point and fire on the swing with a follow through just like you would with a fancy trap gun.

 

You have to unlearn the feel of your old gun and relearn it with this one. Good technique is the same. Just because it has fine sights does not mean you have to pause and aim. The IZ108 models have a vent rib with wings, which I like.

 

Oh, and I have tritium AR sight post that I will put on my 108 rail in place of the bead, so I will have the best of both. I just need to pick up the tap.

 

one2za, what size shot are you using? Also a tip that worked for me from an old timer... Breath in before you pull, follow the bird till it reaches its highest point in the air, exhaling from your lungs as it hits the high point, and take your shot then. For that second it seems to float before gravity takes its effect and begins to pull the bird down, giving you a little longer on the target. Some people like to breath out a little longer as it travels down, giving them more time with the bird in their sights before taking the shot.

 

repetition is the key in shooting, i'm sure at 65 you don't need to change your technique. But what I said above works for me.

 

Exactly as GunFun said about learning the feel of the gun, unlearning the feel of the old gun. I was out two weeks ago hitting 85/90 clays with my s12 one at a time, and 88/90 two at a time (backwards i know), we went out last weekend with my friends weatherby, and i may have been lucky to hit 35/90 one at a time and about 12/50 before getting frustrated going two at a time. It has taken a couple months shooting every weekend to get there. I have a poly choke on xtra full, using 7 1/2 federal low brass. A few weeks ago i went out with the old man down the road and he nailed 90/90, half way through he said throw two at a time, and the last 10 we did 3/3/4 at a time with two of us throwing. We were using my s12, he owns a benelli... I don't know know how he does it. retired vietnam vet, 84 years old and can shoot a chipmunk with a .22 remington, open sights around 100 yards...

[going12220 125]

you're more than likely waiting too long, shoot way faster. gun sholdered, break the clay before it starts to drop.

[magsite20 1,664]

While my earlier post might be good for skeet crossing birds may not get you what you need on away birds.

 

Again use the advantage of knowing where the clay is going time after time and ambush it. With the shotgun up and pointed at about the right height in the direction the bird is going as soon as the clay is on top of the front sight pull the trigger. Of course you may need to rotate a little to get everything lined up but don’t ride the target long get the shot off.

 

One of the things to think about is you’re not shooting at a round orange clay, you’re really shooting at the flat edge. So your target is smaller than you might be thinking, shooting sooner will give you more shot density to hit that target. You should be busting them within 20 to 25 yards of you.

[incognito485 26]

I'm assuming you have an IZ 109 with rifle sights. I haven't shot clays with my IZ 109 but I have with my Iz 108.................and everyone has a hard time beating me to the clay. And they usually get pissed because I beat them with their fancy Benelli's. But if all you want to do is shoot clays with the gun you can always look to replacing the sight with a ribbed sight like on the 108s. They are ideal for hitting moving targets, especially clays and birds.

Where would I get one?

 

I want to say that Cobra put some on for a guy, but I can't recall. I'm sure that the vendors around here have access to them.

[Kylsix 2]

The most common misunderstanding is just how fast your shot is moving, fucking fast. It seems a lot of folks have trouble with that concept, and lead way too much. I routinely shoot skeet with my S12 with no problems, even using game loads (Rabbit/Squirrel), and I generally put my sights on the edge of the skeet of the direction it is traveling, so if the skeet is moving laterally to my right, I put my sights on the right edge of the disk. You make minor adjustments based on whether the disk is moving faster or slower, as well as if there is a noticeable wind, as well as range to target.

[gunfun 3,931]

I think we are in danger of telling him too much stuff. If he follows the tips from 20 mags and just practices a few times first on ground targets to get a feel for point of aim, he should be good. Over thinking and panicking is the thing that shuts people down the most.

 

Also, this helps give another 20 -30 usable feet of range in my experience with #7 or #8 shot. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/56319-new-style-winchoke-adapters-2/ I think it is the most useful accesory for your gun other than big magazines.

[going12220 125]

one2za, done any more shooting and try any of this stuff yet?

[one2za 7]

Thanks for all of the helpful input. Remember, I'm shooting trap with a foot pedal self-actuated machine. This adds a little difficulty to the equation. Also, I've only gone twice, 50 rounds each time.

 

I've been shooting 7 1/2 shot. First time was Federal bulk pack. Second time was a variety of two different brands I ordered. Don't remember which. Also tried different trap elevation launch angles and different launch speeds. Haven't tried yet with someone else operating the trap.

 

I have a polychoke I've tried on a couple of different settings, but to be honest with you I'm not sure I'm setting it right. Do you tighten the poly choke as far as you can and then back off to the setting you want? I notice that I feel the notches when I rotate thru two or three 360 degree revolutions so I'm not sure which is correct.

 

I may try modifying the S12 by adding a tube to extend the gas tube or put one just above it between the front & rear sights. I have some ideas but not sure it will take the recoil. Anyway, probably premature. I should probably get a few hundred more practice rounds thru her to see if I improve any. Not sure when I'll get to try again. Maybe in a couple of weeks.

[magsite20 1,664]

Yeah you may be overly multi-tasking for a new clay shooter, try to get a 2^nd person out with you to trip the thrower. In the beginning just shooting is enough to think about. I’d start with the thrower set at about a 35 degree angle to have more time on the up going, a dropping clay is harder to hit.

 

Once you’ve started hitting clays and you know what the sight picture looks like with your guns setup it tends to get easier real fast. Then you can start changing things up to make new challenges.

[casper980 0]

1. Open both eyes, always shoot with both eyes open even more important with a shotgun.

 

2. Stop thinking about it so much

 

3. Do not aim down the sites! Yes I know it has sites, they are for slugs!

 

4. Point it at the target same as any other shotgun, lead only slightly

 

5. It only has a 19'' barrel...do not let them get too far, shoot fast.

 

When shooting in general you should be shooting with both eyes open. This is even more important when shooting clays, so open your eyes if they are not already. This never sounds right, but do not aim down the sites, point the gun, just like any other shotgun. I was just out yesterday, dusting clays 2 at a time and was even double tapping some. The Saiga makes a great skeet and trap gun even using the stock barrel without chokes. You do want to get on them quickly before they are out of range however. I like the can suggestion, I like to throw the can on a berm and keep it bouncing up the hill, while I move side to side. This will help you keep target on a moving object. Also practice shouldering the weapon, if your system is comfortable to you, the site picture should come up very quickly and naturally. Practice, practice, practice....the gun is expensive luckily its cheap to keep feeding it. Good luck and stop over thinking it. My .02 cents