preparehandbook 326 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Years ago, before the age of pointy muzzle brakes (back when guns were wood and fired stone balls) I taught LEOs things like room clearing and door breaching. We had seen various stand-off devices, some like a short spike bayonet, some that resembled a coffee can and were designed to catch flying debris. Most were seen as gimmicks, none really saw general adoption. We saw problems result when a person trained to rely on the weapon sticking to the door had the device slip or slide, often resulting in a wild shot, sometimes in injuries. Mostly it was seen that these devices were a poor substitute for adequate training and generally encouraged the user to get the muzzle way to close to the door. So, what is everybody's opinion? Practical tool? Mall ninja crap? Extra credit for anyone who has used one in training/play/practice Super extra credit for anyone who has used one in a real life situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joseph 141 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) i put a breacher brake on my saiga 12 years ago, stopped using keys ever sence! although i do admit it is alot harder to start cars with the breacher Edited April 17, 2012 by ZombieJefferson 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 The other end of the spectrum.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Pfft, I'm so tactical, I have a muzzle-mounted lock pick. I'm kidding. I've no idea about door breaching and breachers. Even those rebar-cutter muzzle devices mystify me. They must mean something to someone. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 I have never needed to use one so I dont have one. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 If you dont have a job that involves door breaching then its mall ninja. If you do I leave it to you to decide what to use. My personal preferred method is setting fire to the building and shooting them as they run out. Next can we do a poll about 37mm flare launcher attachments? 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 "Next can we do a poll about 37mm flare launcher attachments?" I've never really had a need to launch flares. Anyone who needs to launch so many flares that they need a mounted laucher should probably give up boating entirely. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 "Next can we do a poll about 37mm flare launcher attachments?" I've never really had a need to launch flares. Anyone who needs to launch so many flares that they need a mounted laucher should probably give up boating entirely. Nor do the vast majority of us have the need to breach doors. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Pfft, I'm so tactical, I have a muzzle-mounted lock pick. I'm kidding. I've no idea about door breaching and breachers. Even those rebar-cutter muzzle devices mystify me. They must mean something to someone. I just had to google Muzzle mounted rebar cutter,I will be such a hit on the jobsite! No more boring old bolt cutter, or stinky floor mounted rebar chopper. When the ladies come by they'll be all anout impressed... "Look at that guy,he's cutting rebar with a gun! Let's all have his babies!" OSHA and the local cops may have some pussy ass concerns about "stray bullets" and "gunfire within city limits" but I'm sure the union will back me up. "Next can we do a poll about 37mm flare launcher attachments?" I've never really had a need to launch flares. Anyone who needs to launch so many flares that they need a mounted laucher should probably give up boating entirely. Nor do the vast majority of us have the need to breach doors. I have not messed with anything like this in 25 years, and doubt I ever will again. I did help an old lady get her keys out of her car recently by giving helpful hints and crowding the AAA guy. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mgconnor13 206 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 if you plan to breach a door use a door ram, enough said 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 I breach doors with some regularity in the fire service. Hooligan took and sledge hammers make short work of most locks. The sledge can do it all by itself but the hooligan reduces damage most of the time. I'm not wasting my barrel or ammo on a lock that I can get into otherwise. Also many homes have new or replacement vinyl widows. The tiny screws holding the locks in place are mounted in vinyl on both sides of the window. Which do you think gives first? Simple pry bar can open most of them and not damage the glass. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 If nobody on the other side of the door wants to let me in then I don't want to go in there. If I need to rescue somebody in trouble then I don't need a gun. I have a shark brake in a drawer somewhere that came with a gun when I bought it, but I have no use for it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 I breach doors with some regularity in the fire service. Hooligan took and sledge hammers make short work of most locks. The sledge can do it all by itself but the hooligan reduces damage most of the time. I'm not wasting my barrel or ammo on a lock that I can get into otherwise. Also many homes have new or replacement vinyl widows. The tiny screws holding the locks in place are mounted in vinyl on both sides of the window. Which do you think gives first? Simple pry bar can open most of them and not damage the glass. Yeah, that is good practice for a firefighter but muzzle stand-offs are made for dynamic tactical entry. The whole squad climbing through the window is not an option. Some LEO's like the standoff, some don't. Ours features an effective muzzle brake. If you're going to play the "do you really need this" game, judge not lest ye be judged; what do you use your Saiga-12 for, after all? These guns are 99.9% purchased because they look badass. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) I breach doors with some regularity in the fire service. Hooligan took and sledge hammers make short work of most locks. The sledge can do it all by itself but the hooligan reduces damage most of the time. I'm not wasting my barrel or ammo on a lock that I can get into otherwise. Is that actually called the "Hallagan Tool"? I like "Hooligan" better! I was watching one of the "reality" police shows on TV once, where a SWAT team had to make entry into a building through the back door... Concrete block walls with a heavy-duty, steel security door, with the steel cover over the latch area. (Door opens to the outside, not in.) One team member laid the "Hooligan Tool" flat on the door, with the claws in the gap of the frame just above the latch plate. Another team member smacked the head of the tool with a heavy sledge hammer, then the first guy just grabbed the far end of the tool and pried the door wide open! It took maybe 4 seconds max!! I was amazed how fast that door was open. There's no way a shotgun could have done that, no matter what loads you were using. (Except maybe some kind of explosive round?) Edit: It may have been a "Pro-Bar", not a regular "Haligan"... Edited April 17, 2012 by Ronin38 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 if you plan to breach a door use a door ram, enough said I use a DODGE Ram to breach doors! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BpS12 512 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Lock buster rounds ie. breachers, do work, against the correct barricade. I've tested them, ;-)c . EVERY situation is different and should be reconed BEFORE action. From the few LEO guys I've talked to, the muzzle mounted breachers are more a bayonet replacement rather than an actual breaching tool. Less lethal but also less likely to stick the guy in front of you or break or draw unwanted public attention. As for the stand off devices, it would seem to be more a matter of personal pref. The guys that like them are often called lazy by those that don't, lol. If it works for you, by all means use it. I like the blunt toothed attachments as for me it would be used as a bayonet substitute in a pinch or to maybe break auto glass, etc. As pointed out by BobAsh, if you're going by "why have it if you don't have an immediate use for it", (sounds anti gun to me), most of us would not have much of what we do have. Remember, it's ALWAYS better to have and not need, than to need and not have. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Personally, I think they are ridiculous mall ninja bait, but if the edges and points are nice and sharp. . . they are unquestionably a terrific 'training/reinforcement tool' for never placing one's hand over; grasping the firearm by the muzzle. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 You know I've been wondering how peope keep cutting themselves on these things. I could see it pissing you off it it ripped a nice gun case, or bag. But if your cutting your hand on a breacher other than I dunno maybe initially installing it (even that is suspect) how do you operate power tools or make a fucking sandwich for that matter? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) If you're going to play the "do you really need this" game, judge not lest ye be judged; what do you use your Saiga-12 for, after all? These guns are 99.9% purchased because they look badass. I never said "you dont need that". I said most people will never need to do what its designed to do. As far as what guns are designed to do... They are designed to fire bullets or pellets and that is exactly what I use them for. I never buy a gun to look at. Edited to fix spelling because I can't type on my tiny phone keyboard. Edited April 18, 2012 by XD45 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) You know I've been wondering how peope keep cutting themselves on these things. I could see it pissing you off it it ripped a nice gun case, or bag. But if your cutting your hand on a breacher other than I dunno maybe initially installing it (even that is suspect) how do you operate power tools or make a fucking sandwich for that matter? It usually ends badly Edited April 18, 2012 by preparehandbook 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I breach doors with some regularity in the fire service. Hooligan took and sledge hammers make short work of most locks. The sledge can do it all by itself but the hooligan reduces damage most of the time. I'm not wasting my barrel or ammo on a lock that I can get into otherwise. Is that actually called the "Hallagan Tool"? I like "Hooligan" better! I was watching one of the "reality" police shows on TV once, where a SWAT team had to make entry into a building through the back door... Concrete block walls with a heavy-duty, steel security door, with the steel cover over the latch area. (Door opens to the outside, not in.) One team member laid the "Hooligan Tool" flat on the door, with the claws in the gap of the frame just above the latch plate. Another team member smacked the head of the tool with a heavy sledge hammer, then the first guy just grabbed the far end of the tool and pried the door wide open! It took maybe 4 seconds max!! I was amazed how fast that door was open. There's no way a shotgun could have done that, no matter what loads you were using. (Except maybe some kind of explosive round?) Edit: It may have been a "Pro-Bar", not a regular "Haligan"... Depends on what part the country you're from. Kinda like "you guys" in the north, and "ya'll" in the south. Same thing with water tenders and water tankers. Same thing just a different term. I like hooligan cause I get to be one and get paid for it when I have to use one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I breach doors with some regularity in the fire service. Hooligan took and sledge hammers make short work of most locks. The sledge can do it all by itself but the hooligan reduces damage most of the time. I'm not wasting my barrel or ammo on a lock that I can get into otherwise. Also many homes have new or replacement vinyl widows. The tiny screws holding the locks in place are mounted in vinyl on both sides of the window. Which do you think gives first? Simple pry bar can open most of them and not damage the glass. Yeah, that is good practice for a firefighter but muzzle stand-offs are made for dynamic tactical entry. The whole squad climbing through the window is not an option. Some LEO's like the standoff, some don't. Ours features an effective muzzle brake. If you're going to play the "do you really need this" game, judge not lest ye be judged; what do you use your Saiga-12 for, after all? These guns are 99.9% purchased because they look badass. I have a solution for the window issue. . .Use more than one. A full crew of firefighters would be smart enough to figure that out. We also try to make exits when possible. Fire is a living creature that operates on instict to feed. That's why firefighters are hero's for the guys that write tickets. Never questioned the need for a door breacher. Simply offered another possible solution. I have one on a shotty, but it's more for spearing a person than opening a door. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 You know I've been wondering how peope keep cutting themselves on these things. I could see it pissing you off it it ripped a nice gun case, or bag. But if your cutting your hand on a breacher other than I dunno maybe initially installing it (even that is suspect) how do you operate power tools or make a fucking sandwich for that matter? Well rats! Truthfully, I put a breacher (a small and tactful (not tactical) one) on my S12 simply because the factory thread protector was boring as hell. Searching desperately for further justification, I suppose it would up the intimidation factor slightly and would be a humane "persuader" not that I figure I'll ever use it for either purpose. You never know though. I'll shamefully admit that I've poked my fingers a few times and the damn thing just loves to chew the innards of gun bags too. My solution? Since I also had a raised front sight I bought a one inch (I think) PVC cap that fit perfectly, drilled a hole in the end and installed a bicycle cable holder with a nut. Then I ran a rubber band through the hole and over the front sight. Problem solved. Looking back, if I had it to do all over again I probably would just get a brake without the pointy things. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 You know I've been wondering how peope keep cutting themselves on these things. I could see it pissing you off it it ripped a nice gun case, or bag. But if your cutting your hand on a breacher other than I dunno maybe initially installing it (even that is suspect) how do you operate power tools or make a fucking sandwich for that matter? It usually ends badly That sandwich made me sad...it's like if "deliverance" was about a sandwich.. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 "Next can we do a poll about 37mm flare launcher attachments?" I've never really had a need to launch flares. Anyone who needs to launch so many flares that they need a mounted laucher should probably give up boating entirely. I laughed so hard at that I had a coughing fit. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 In my eyes 37mm launchers lost their fun potential when ATF decided that solid projectiles made them a DD. Prior to that when loaded with scary-huge loads of rubber buckshot they were a serious home defense option. (I liked Def-Tec's buck loads) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 Oh, and I vote for ever option other than the top one. Nothing wrong with having one, but almost no-one could claim to need one. "It makes my gun look awesome is a legitimate reason", just as much as "It makes my gun 100% authentic original". Making a gun look scary or evil may have value as a threat to deter attack, and can make you look bad too. The brake function may have some value depending on design. Since most of them are really just on there for looks, it is kind of sad to me how cheap and boring most of them look. SGM ones really exemplify this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I agree. The "looks neat and scary" was not meant sarcastically. Just because I choose function above appearance doesn't mean other's feel the same way. As far as I'm concerned I would paint all my guns pink if it made them run better and I wouldn't pay a single dollar more for an attractive wood grain in a stock, smoother parkerizing or any other non-functional feature. On the other end of the spectrum is the recent thread where a forum member showed off his "zombie killer" S12 which obviously was built with a great deal of care and attention to detail and came out looking really good. I started this thread honestly wanting to know what people think of these popular breaching accessories. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I've only breached a door a few times, some 20 years ago. We didn't have a breaching attachment, just a pump shotgun. So my experience here is quite limited. Having said that........... LOL I suspect in my life as a civilian, I will probably never need to breach another door. If I do, I'm sure I can make do without a breaching attachment on the muzzle. However, what I could possibly see myself using a "breaching" style muzzle device for could be a less than lethal persuader if I jabbed someone with the thing. The chances are though, if I felt threatened, I'd just fire instead. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I suspect in my life as a civilian, I will probably never need to breach another door. If I do, I'm sure I can make do without a breaching attachment on the muzzle. However, what I could possibly see myself using a "breaching" style muzzle device for could be a less than lethal persuader if I jabbed someone with the thing. The chances are though, if I felt threatened, I'd just fire instead. Same reason I have a Shark on the S12. Also same reason I modded this AMD brake for my Draco since it doesn't have a bayonet lug for attaching pointy things. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.