HART1 92 Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 This is my S12 BULL. I call it the bull because of what has been done to the gas system. This is a link to the story behind the gun. http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?65952-The-Saiga-12-quot-BULL-quot 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Why not just install an autoplug? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 OK, so there is a story (knid of) but no actual information or pics of what was done. Care to elaborate? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Your gas tube spits out fouling? Do you have any video of it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun12 205 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Pics and video would be awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I'm trying not to have to do a bunch of cross forum posting, but if you read my posts on Uzi Talk, you will see see that I pretty much answered these questions already. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I'm trying not to have to do a bunch of cross forum posting, but if you read my posts on Uzi Talk, you will see see that I pretty much answered these questions already. From what you linked, there isnt much of any information about, or reasoning. I dont get it, please help me understand what and why. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 If you look closely he has holes at 10 n 2 just behind his HK sight. Presumably the puck covers them until the back of the stroke, then allows them to vent up when it passes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) I'm trying not to have to do a bunch of cross forum posting, but if you read my posts on Uzi Talk, you will see see that I pretty much answered these questions already. From what you linked, there isnt much of any information about, or reasoning. I dont get it, please help me understand what and why. I understand what your saying but I don't even have all the data yet. This is the first time anyone has tried anything like this and there is no information avalible. Sorry As far as how it's done? Well, I don't have an llc and if you somehow got hurt doing this mod yourself I'm not going to be held responsible. Hence, no mod info. The two people I directed you to have an llc. As far as the reason I did this to my weapon? Just to test a theory and see if powder fouling, pastic, whatever, could be ejected from the gas system while the gun was being fired, it's as simple as that. I wanted to try to make a S12 run like an AK47 without all the polishing and add on products that are being sold on the market. I want something that can be kicked in a mud hole and still shoot with no problems after it's pulled out. That's what I want, your tastes might be different? I see no reason this wouldn't work on the new 030's also, but I don't have a 030 to test. Edited April 22, 2012 by ARMOR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Gotcha. Mine runs fine, i have no want to try it, i was just curious. I see the holes now and get the idea for cleaning but how is it suppose to compensate for friction in the action? I could be way off and very well might be but it seems like once the puck passes the "nostrils" (bull), it would lose alot of the pressure thats been built up to drive it home. This would make an already weak cycling gun that has friction issues in the action, even more prone to failure. Was the orignal bleed hole closed up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Gotcha. Mine runs fine, i have no want to try it, i was just curious. I see the holes now and get the idea for cleaning but how is it suppose to compensate for friction in the action? I could be way off and very well might be but it seems like once the puck passes the "nostrils" (bull), it would lose alot of the pressure thats been built up to drive it home. This would make an already weak cycling gun that has friction issues in the action, even more prone to failure. Was the orignal bleed hole closed up? Gosh I hate typing, and you seem to make me do the most. Lol. I'm not getting into details, but the gas system has to be tuned for this to work correctly. We all know you can't just pick up a Vodka Special and want it to run the way I do whithout something being done to it. I feel your close to getting it, but off on your gas pressure theory. I have an engineer buddy who also friends with the Tac 47 guy on this forum coming over to go over some data on this weapon to see if it can even be kicked up a notch. I'd really like to make it auto regulate like the 030's also, but haven't got that far yet. I'll get some video when I have time, maybe next week? You can also ask Ray, he shot it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 LOL, i'm just curious thats all and have never seen this before and with the little info given want to know more. Like i said, i am probably way off, i dont claim to be a pro by any means. I have a rough understanding but thats about it. What all is done to it besides the ported block work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I did just a little polishing on the bottom of the carrier and bolt stem, installed a new Tapco G2 FGC and a puck. That's it, and what you see installed on the outside of the gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) C'mon, man. It's interesting, but the work you had done is not as super-secret-squirrel as you imply. You've just chosen to vent the gas block, rather than the muzzle device or barrel. Same/similar result, different location.. interesting, but not superior. Surely no one thinks that the gas system on my LSA S-12 is stock... since she still cycles anything down to Federal birdshot, (and that without much discernible recoil), all day, no problem. Edited April 22, 2012 by post-apocalyptic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) C'mon, man. It's interesting, but the work you had done is not as super-secret-squirrel as you imply. You've just chosen to vent the gas block, rather than the muzzle device or barrel. Same/similar result, different location.. interesting, but not superior. Surely no one thinks that the gas system on my LSA S-12 is stock... since she still cycles anything down to Federal birdshot, (and that without much discernible recoil), all day, no problem. I never said anything about, super-secret or superior. I said it was a theory I wanted to test and I don't have an llc, so I'm not giving out info. You can contact the two companies I listed if you want any info. Lets not start some mud slinging here or I'm done. I'm just a person like you trying to test an idea. As far as this. "You've just chosen to vent the gas block, rather than the muzzle device or barrel. Same/similar result, different location". Maybe you need to read my thread again. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion? Edited April 22, 2012 by ARMOR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 The autoplug performs the same function but, IMO, in a better way because it also regulates pressure. I don't understand how a non-regulating ported gas block would work better than an automatic gas regulating plug. I've got the real world experience to back it up, and my gun even cycles Win Uni. After my last outing, where I fired over 250 rounds of very foul-burning birdshot, I pulled the plug to find very little fouling in the gas block. I'm glad that there are people out there trying new things, but I don't see how this is an improvement upon what is already out there, I guess time and real world experience will tell... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 This looks like he is just tryIng to clear out any debris that gets in the gas chamber after the piston moves past a point. His goal seems to prevent fouling in the fluted section also. If It doesn't take away from gas needed to cycle the gun then it looks like this could be a very good addition to the Autoplug (which I have on my gun). Just another step towards a "self cleaning" gas system. The auto regulating concept sounds verry interesting. I like the way your mind works, it wasn't enough to just get my gun running, I love to try new ideas. Keep us updated... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) This idea I'm working on has "nothing" to do with auto regulating the weapon. I want to make that clear. It is "not" the same thing as the auto plug and it can not be compaired to whatever with a muzzle device. It is intended for what I stated (Keeping the gas block clean of powder fouling and other crap) and nothing else. This looks like he is just tryIng to clear out any debris that gets in the gas chamber after the piston moves past a point. His goal seems to prevent fouling in the fluted section also. If It doesn't take away from gas needed to cycle the gun then it looks like this could be a very good addition to the Autoplug (which I have on my gun). Just another step towards a "self cleaning" gas system. The auto regulating concept sounds verry interesting. I like the way your mind works, it wasn't enough to just get my gun running, I love to try new ideas. Keep us updated... You sir, get a gold star! Edited April 22, 2012 by ARMOR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 You are correct, it most DEFINITELY is NOT the same as the autoplug. How about a gentleman's challenge? Let's report back after our range outings with proper info, what type of ammo, brand, number of rounds, etc... and let's see how many shots we can go without cleaning the gas block. I've already ran 250 rounds of Federal 7 1/2 birdshot bulk pack from Wally World. I've also ran 50 rounds of Win Uni 7 1/2 birdshot. So we can go from there. I only removed the autoplug and dumped debris out of the gas block. How 'bout it? Wanna really see what it can do? Oh, and add ten remington sluggers to that number as well, 2.75" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I havent cleaned my gas system in like 500-600 bulk pack rounds, still runs fine for me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 You are correct, it most DEFINITELY is NOT the same as the autoplug. How about a gentleman's challenge? Let's report back after our range outings with proper info, what type of ammo, brand, number of rounds, etc... and let's see how many shots we can go without cleaning the gas block. I've already ran 250 rounds of Federal 7 1/2 birdshot bulk pack from Wally World. I've also ran 50 rounds of Win Uni 7 1/2 birdshot. So we can go from there. I only removed the autoplug and dumped debris out of the gas block. How 'bout it? Wanna really see what it can do? Oh, and add ten remington sluggers to that number as well, 2.75" Okay, but I'm not to that round count yet though. I'm running the cheaoest walmart ammo I can find to test with anyway. As long as we are doing a gentleman's challenge, lets kick it up a notch and do a real world test on video. My parents have an old farm pond with a nasty mud, silt, clay bottom. I'll take my gun and throw it in the pond and drag it back in that nasty pond crud and shoot it. Are you game for doing something like that with your weapon on video? Let me know, I'm going to my parents house next weekend. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RS12 7 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 You are correct, it most DEFINITELY is NOT the same as the autoplug. How about a gentleman's challenge? Let's report back after our range outings with proper info, what type of ammo, brand, number of rounds, etc... and let's see how many shots we can go without cleaning the gas block. I've already ran 250 rounds of Federal 7 1/2 birdshot bulk pack from Wally World. I've also ran 50 rounds of Win Uni 7 1/2 birdshot. So we can go from there. I only removed the autoplug and dumped debris out of the gas block. How 'bout it? Wanna really see what it can do? Oh, and add ten remington sluggers to that number as well, 2.75" Okay, but I'm not to that round count yet though. I'm running the cheaoest walmart ammo I can find to test with anyway. As long as we are doing a gentleman's challenge, lets kick it up a notch and do a real world test on video. My parents have an old farm pond with a nasty mud, silt, clay bottom. I'll take my gun and throw it in the pond and drag it back in that nasty pond crud and shoot it. Are you game for doing something like that with your weapon on video? Let me know, I'm going to my parents house next weekend. I'd like to see that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I'll see if I can find a pond, but uh, it's going to be hard to see how many rounds you can go through without cleaning if you throw it in the mud which would require cleaning... How are you going to keep mud and water out of your gas block? Mine has a nice little spring loaded diaphragm... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HART1 92 Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I'll see if I can find a pond, but uh, it's going to be hard to see how many rounds you can go through without cleaning if you throw it in the mud which would require cleaning... How are you going to keep mud and water out of your gas block? Mine has a nice little spring loaded diaphragm... I see what you are saying with the round count, but I'm under 100 rounds so far and I was thinking the mud and sludge would be a better, or at least a faster failure test anyway. I won't be trying to keep mud and water out of my gas block, I want it to get in every part of the weapon. I'm wanting to see what it will take to stop this gun from running. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I have some thoughts about something similar, but it would have a second puck in front of the gas ports, covering the vent holes, with a strong spring in front of that. When you fire light loads the pressure is enough to cycle the action but not enough to overcome the strong front spring so the front puck doesn't move. With magnum loads the pressure is high enough to move the front puck forward, uncovering the vent holes and releasing gas until the pressure falls to the "regulated" level. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I have some thoughts about something similar, but it would have a second puck in front of the gas ports, covering the vent holes, with a strong spring in front of that. When you fire light loads the pressure is enough to cycle the action but not enough to overcome the strong front spring so the front puck doesn't move. With magnum loads the pressure is high enough to move the front puck forward, uncovering the vent holes and releasing gas until the pressure falls to the "regulated" level. That is actually how the Autoplug works. Have you looked at one yet? It's very nice to have. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I always thought that the autoplug should have a stepped poppet, with bigger or morre vents at the second stage, so that it could do two levels of venting. IMO that would allow it to vent higher pressure gas faster, and open bigger vents to blast out crud. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I have some thoughts about something similar, but it would have a second puck in front of the gas ports, covering the vent holes, with a strong spring in front of that. When you fire light loads the pressure is enough to cycle the action but not enough to overcome the strong front spring so the front puck doesn't move. With magnum loads the pressure is high enough to move the front puck forward, uncovering the vent holes and releasing gas until the pressure falls to the "regulated" level. That's a GREAT idea! I've had an idea I've been kicking around as well. It's not gun-related though, you see, it's a machine that works like a copy machine except it doesn't print the copy, it sends the printing information through phone or internet lines to tell ANOTHER machine just like it to print up the copy that you scanned hundreds of miles away from where you scanned it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 I have some thoughts about something similar, but it would have a second puck in front of the gas ports, covering the vent holes, with a strong spring in front of that. When you fire light loads the pressure is enough to cycle the action but not enough to overcome the strong front spring so the front puck doesn't move. With magnum loads the pressure is high enough to move the front puck forward, uncovering the vent holes and releasing gas until the pressure falls to the "regulated" level. That's a GREAT idea! I've had an idea I've been kicking around as well. It's not gun-related though, you see, it's a machine that works like a copy machine except it doesn't print the copy, it sends the printing information through phone or internet lines to tell ANOTHER machine just like it to print up the copy that you scanned hundreds of miles away from where you scanned it. It would APPEAR that someone has stolen my idea. Obviously I'll have to sue... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) C'mon, man. It's interesting, but the work you had done is not as super-secret-squirrel as you imply. You've just chosen to vent the gas block, rather than the muzzle device or barrel. Same/similar result, different location.. interesting, but not superior. Surely no one thinks that the gas system on my LSA S-12 is stock... since she still cycles anything down to Federal birdshot, (and that without much discernible recoil), all day, no problem. you mean mike did work on your gas system!? . only federal birdshot huh? mine will even cycle the ceap winchester universal crap. (and quit well i might add) i guess thats the difference between your "older" model and my newer one Edited April 23, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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