buckshot patterns with different length barrels

[psl sniper 963]

so i wanted to see what types of patterns id get with my newly shortened s 12 (14" with perm attached brake for 18 1/2"), compared to a 20" barrel. i also wanted to see if buckshot loads with the petals cut off the wads would open up more. the

test was conducted using a couple of my handloads. the first load was 12 #1 pellets with the petals cut off the wads (only way they stack right). the second load was 9 0 buck pellets (with the petals left on). the shotguns where my saiga 12 and a stevens bolt action.

 

heres the results

 

 

shots where taken at 15 yards both guns where cylinder bore. had one really good pattern with the bolt, but the rest where all pretty much identical. (shot more rounds later, but no pics) conclusions?. i dont feel the shot petals really do much when it comes to buck shot, and im really not losing much with the shorter barrel.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta

[RED333 1,025]

Good post, thanks.

I use "00" buck shot, the only mold I have.

You can get 9 in a Winchester and Federal, but only 8 in a Remington.

I have not cut the petals off, I am looking for uncut wads for buck shot.

They do make them, they have 3 or 4 petals cut into the side of the wad.

Supposed to hold the shot longer out of the bore.

[IndyArms 10,186]

ballistic products is where I would buy the uncut wads...

 

 

[RED333 1,025]

ballistic products is where I would buy the uncut wads...

 

 

Just whait I am looking for, thanks much!!!

[psl sniper 963]

let me know how they work out.

[IndyArms 10,186]

That's why we are here!!! Anytime!

 

Good luck!!

 

 

[psl sniper 963]

LOL it seams like all my load data threads get jacked! oh well! as long as people are getting the info they need/want!

[RED333 1,025]

LOL it seams like all my load data threads get jacked! oh well! as long as people are getting the info they need/want!

Sorry about the thread jack, you know how it is.

[psl sniper 963]

LOL it seams like all my load data threads get jacked! oh well! as long as people are getting the info they need/want!

Sorry about the thread jack, you know how it is.

its all good my friend. reloading is a dying art. let me know how your buck loads work out. i look forward to your data.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Actually reloading is growing very fast in particular Lee was doing very well last time I looked.

Back a few years ago ammo was so cheap there was less motive.

[psl sniper 963]

Actually reloading is growing very fast in particular Lee was doing very well last time I looked.

Back a few years ago ammo was so cheap there was less motive.

 

generally speaking, how many people do you know who are into guns? now

how many of them reload? but yes it has seemed to have gained popularity as of late.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta

[msrdiver 42]

My 19" Saiga and 20" Mossberg 500 pattern about the same at any distance. The 30" bbl Remington keeps the pattern tighter at 15 yards. Really no surprise there.

 

As for petals, with the exception of Round Ball loads, I don't remove them. I reload 1 buck and 12 or 16 pellets fit just fine in the WAA12 or WAA12R respectively. I use Remington Field Grade buckshot from Precision reloading. The lead is "softer" than Hornady but MUCH lower cost. 12 pellets is just below a 1oz load (426 grains vs 436 grains).

 

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=SHBUCKRM1&Category_Code=BUCKSHOT

[psl sniper 963]

My 19" Saiga and 20" Mossberg 500 pattern about the same at any distance. The 30" bbl Remington keeps the pattern tighter at 15 yards. Really no surprise there.

 

As for petals, with the exception of Round Ball loads, I don't remove them. I reload 1 buck and 12 or 16 pellets fit just fine in the WAA12 or WAA12R respectively. I use Remington Field Grade buckshot from Precision reloading. The lead is "softer" than Hornady but MUCH lower cost. 12 pellets is just below a 1oz load (426 grains vs 436 grains).

 

http://www.precision...y_Code=BUCKSHOT

 

well i was using the data you sent me in 2010 . could not get 12 of #1 pellets to crimp without removing the petals.

 

i copied exactly using hand cast #1 and they would not crimp unless i removed the petals and stacked them in three rows of four. in fact thats the load i was testing.

my pellets measured exactly .30 in diameter. maybe the remingtons are smaller?

 

heres the message

 

Sent 10 November 2010 - 11:13 PM

First, the data is for 12 pellet 1Buck not OO. Twelve 30 caliber pellets produces a larger trauma area than 9 OO. The 12 pellets weigh in at 426 grains which is 10 grains less than one ounce.

 

These shells group very well between 30 and 40 feet. Shouldered I shoot these using the gunfixer's plug on setting -1 and off shoulder on +1.

 

Important note: The velocity was determined using a standard 30" test barrel. Subtract 7fps for every inch of barrel less than 30".

 

1414fps at 7600psi

 

 

HULL: STS-Nitro27-game load-or any modern Remington unihull.

Primer: Remington Premier R209P

Wad: WAA12, I'm using Claybuster's version (1414/7600).

Wad: RXP12 (substitution test gave) 1425fps/8100psi.

Powder: WSF 28.45 grains

Buck: Remington Field grade 1 Buck (scroll down the list)

http://www.precision...y_Code=BUCKSHOT

 

 

If you prefer Winchester hulls: 1345fps/7350psi

Hull: any newer AA hull

Primer: W209

Wad: WAA12 (Claybusters version used)

Powder: 800X 26.1 grains

Buck: Remington Field grade 1 Buck (scroll down the list)

http://www.precision...y_Code=BUCKSHOT

 

I also have slower velocity recipes if you are interested.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta

[msrdiver 42]

Crimps on mine remain tight. I stack the pellets in the STS/Nitro hulls in 4 rows of 3 pellets each row. Petals have kept them all tightly nested in the hull. These have remained re crimped since then. I am curious as to why you are having a different experience. I stack 16 pellet loads in 4 rows of 4 X 4 configuration in Gold Medal hulls (straight hulls).

 

PLEASE Triple check the amount of powder being dropped. Might could be a 'lil too much powder to seat the wad back far enough. I have made aver 200 of these and they have worked well.

 

Keep me informed. I am really wanting to resolve this issue.

 

-Michael

Edited April 30, 2012 by msrdiver

[gunfun 3,931]

If you do some thorough searches, back to maybe 2006 or so, I think Tony Rumore posted some thorough data with different loads comparing shot group, point of aim, and velocity as he progressively chopped of a barrel. I wish I had saved the thread to my hard drive. IIRC The upshot was that with most decent buckshot loads, there was almost no drop in velocity until you got under 12" and only a couple hundred FPS difference between 24" BBL and 8" I believe he just got tired of speculation about negative performance of the S17 compared to a long barrel shotgun and wanted to replace guesses and arguments with facts.

 

If anyone(including the guy who was nice enough to generate the data in the first place) can find a link or saved the data, it would be appreciated. If I have incorrectly attributed the study, my apologies to the actual guy.

 

His shot spread were only slightly affected, and with Federal flight control there was almost no difference.

 

It sounds like you are trying to maximize spread though, not keep it small.

[psl sniper 963]

Crimps on mine remain tight. I stack the pellets in the STS/Nitro hulls in 4 rows of 3 pellets each row. Petals have kept them all tightly nested in the hull. These have remained re crimped since then. I am curious as to why you are having a different experience. I stack 16 pellet loads in 4 rows of 4 X 4 configuration in Gold Medal hulls (straight hulls).

 

PLEASE Triple check the amount of powder being dropped. Might could be a 'lil too much powder to seat the wad back far enough. I have made aver 200 of these and they have worked well.

 

Keep me informed. I am really wanting to resolve this issue.

 

-Michael

 

pm sent

 

the only difference is the brand of pellets. mine are hand cast and all measure approx .299-.300.

the issue ive had is that if i stack them . in 4 rows of 3 the crimp tends to bulge. i even went so far as to drop the powder to 27 grains with the same results. im not using a powder dropper, measured all powder loads by hand using myy lee scales . my press set up is a lee load all 2.

 

after several attempts i ended up removing the petals and stacking the pellets in 3 rows of 4. after that they crimped perfect.

 

if you could double check the pellet diameter and powder charges on your end that might help. im truly at a loss. i really want this load to work as i just purchased quite a bit of wsf.

 

also if its not too much trouble could i see a pic of your crimp? might give me an idea of where to set mine.

 

and of course thanks for your help these last couple of years.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta

[IndyArms 10,186]

Crimps on mine remain tight. I stack the pellets in the STS/Nitro hulls in 4 rows of 3 pellets each row. Petals have kept them all tightly nested in the hull. These have remained re crimped since then. I am curious as to why you are having a different experience. I stack 16 pellet loads in 4 rows of 4 X 4 configuration in Gold Medal hulls (straight hulls).

 

PLEASE Triple check the amount of powder being dropped. Might could be a 'lil too much powder to seat the wad back far enough. I have made aver 200 of these and they have worked well.

 

Keep me informed. I am really wanting to resolve this issue.

 

-Michael

 

pm sent

 

the only difference is the brand of pellets. mine are hand cast and all measure approx .299-.300.

the issue ive had is that if i stack them . in 4 rows of 3 the crimp tends to bulge. i even went so far as to drop the powder to 27 grains with the same results. im not using a powder dropper, measured all powder loads by hand using myy lee scales . my press set up is a lee load all 2.

 

after several attempts i ended up removing the petals and stacking the pellets in 3 rows of 4. after that they crimped perfect.

 

if you could double check the pellet diameter and powder charges on your end that might help. im truly at a loss. i really want this load to work as i just purchased quite a bit of wsf.

 

also if its not too much trouble could i see a pic of your crimp? might give me an idea of where to set mine.

 

and of course thanks for your help these last couple of years.

 

 

Perhaps you need to adjust your wad pressure??? Maybe bump up wad pressure to 20 to 40 pounds MORE that will get it to seat a little deeper... Just a thought...

 

Also... are you reloading on the SAME brand/model of press?? With the pre-crimp/crimp bushings set at exactly the same heights?? Does your press not have QUITE the same travel per stroke as his does??

 

I tried loading on a Texan progressive and could not get the 12 gauge hulls to crimp properly... EVER... did them on my MEC's and they are all PERFECT... look like they came straight from Remington, or Winchester!!!

 

Just other things to consider...

 

 

 

 

[psl sniper 963]

Crimps on mine remain tight. I stack the pellets in the STS/Nitro hulls in 4 rows of 3 pellets each row. Petals have kept them all tightly nested in the hull. These have remained re crimped since then. I am curious as to why you are having a different experience. I stack 16 pellet loads in 4 rows of 4 X 4 configuration in Gold Medal hulls (straight hulls).

 

PLEASE Triple check the amount of powder being dropped. Might could be a 'lil too much powder to seat the wad back far enough. I have made aver 200 of these and they have worked well.

 

Keep me informed. I am really wanting to resolve this issue.

 

-Michael

 

pm sent

 

the only difference is the brand of pellets. mine are hand cast and all measure approx .299-.300.

the issue ive had is that if i stack them . in 4 rows of 3 the crimp tends to bulge. i even went so far as to drop the powder to 27 grains with the same results. im not using a powder dropper, measured all powder loads by hand using myy lee scales . my press set up is a lee load all 2.

 

after several attempts i ended up removing the petals and stacking the pellets in 3 rows of 4. after that they crimped perfect.

 

if you could double check the pellet diameter and powder charges on your end that might help. im truly at a loss. i really want this load to work as i just purchased quite a bit of wsf.

 

also if its not too much trouble could i see a pic of your crimp? might give me an idea of where to set mine.

 

and of course thanks for your help these last couple of years.

 

 

Perhaps you need to adjust your wad pressure??? Maybe bump up wad pressure to 20 to 40 pounds MORE that will get it to seat a little deeper... Just a thought... <shrug>

 

Also... are you reloading on the SAME brand/model of press?? With the pre-crimp/crimp bushings set at exactly the same heights?? Does your press not have QUITE the same travel per stroke as his does??

 

I tried loading on a Texan progressive and could not get the 12 gauge hulls to crimp properly... EVER... did them on my MEC's and they are all PERFECT... look like they came straight from Remington, or Winchester!!!

 

Just other things to consider...

 

 

 

 

 

he is using a lee load all as well. but i just had a thought based off your wad pressure comment. the problem ive been having is that if i force the wads down they tend to push back up and bulge the crimp out. BUT i just realized that my press is bolted a little farthe back on the bench which is preventing me from pushing down farther. untill now i didnt think it would be an issue.

 

so if i where to basicly bottom out the wad the plastic should conform enough to stay in place correct? if so problem solved! ill test it out tonight. thanks indy. ill keep you posted.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Pusca Semiautomata Luneta

[psl sniper 963]

If you do some thorough searches, back to maybe 2006 or so, I think Tony Rumore posted some thorough data with different loads comparing shot group, point of aim, and velocity as he progressively chopped of a barrel. I wish I had saved the thread to my hard drive. IIRC The upshot was that with most decent buckshot loads, there was almost no drop in velocity until you got under 12" and only a couple hundred FPS difference between 24" BBL and 8" I believe he just got tired of speculation about negative performance of the S17 compared to a long barrel shotgun and wanted to replace guesses and arguments with facts.

 

If anyone(including the guy who was nice enough to generate the data in the first place) can find a link or saved the data, it would be appreciated. If I have incorrectly attributed the study, my apologies to the actual guy.

 

His shot spread were only slightly affected, and with Federal flight control there was almost no difference.

 

It sounds like you are trying to maximize spread though, not keep it small.

 

im actually trying to keep the patterns as tight as possible given what i am working with. i just wanted to make sure i wasnt losing anything with a shorter barrel.

[gunfun 3,931]

I don't expect you to just rely on my statements, but you really have nothing to lose other than clumsiness.

 

Modern powers reach velocity early in the barrel, and patterning is mostly determined by the shot cup, and secondarily by the barrel geometry at breach. It isn't really important how far the choke or lack of choke is from the primer.

 

Sawed offs gave a noticeably bigger spread in the old days for 2 main reasons.

1) most barrels came with a full choke. Cutting the barrel off before the choke started left a cylinder bore.

2) Old shot shells didn't have shot cups, so barrel geometry was the only thing controlling pattern.

 

Velocity differences are a null point with modern powders in all production ammunition.

If you want tight groups, the single biggest thing you can do is buy the pricey Federal Flight Control ammo. (which is developed to run out of military and LE guns. Pretty much all of those are cylinder bore, and a large number of cop shops use 12" 870s as their issue gun. This ammo is made to optimize SBS shotguns.)

[psl sniper 963]

i spent a good hour searching through tromix's old threads and i couldnt find the one you referenced. id really like to read it if you come across it. thanks.

[psl sniper 963]

problem solved! followed indy's advice and put more pressure on the wad. pellets stacked perfect crimp looks cherry! dont know how to thank you guys!

[RED333 1,025]

problem solved! followed indy's advice and put more pressure on the wad. pellets stacked perfect crimp looks cherry! dont know how to thank you guys!

A dollar will do!

[psl sniper 963]

problem solved! followed indy's advice and put more pressure on the wad. pellets stacked perfect crimp looks cherry! dont know how to thank you guys!

A dollar will do!

c'mon red! lol.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Just glad to be of help....

 

I have been reloading a LONG time... its those little tricks that you kinda gotta figure out from someone else who has had a similar problem... or trial and error and a lot of wasted time/ammo/HAIR... LOL!!!

 

I am glad you got it fixed!!!

 

[msrdiver 42]

PUSCA:

 

Good to hear the crimps are finally working. Check on them in a few days to make certain they keep. I tried, in vain, to get the Fiochhi blue huils to keep a crimp but they always lose the crimp in about a week. They are pretty much useless which is sad since I worked up great 9 pellet (1 buck) load using CLAYS of all powders! Pull the trigger and "pop" with little recoil.

 

I'll agree (kinda-sorta) with what GunFun wrote:

 

"I don't expect you to just rely on my statements, but you really have nothing to lose other than clumsiness.

Modern powers reach velocity early in the barrel, and patterning is mostly determined by the shot cup, and secondarily by the barrel geometry at breach. It isn't really important how far the choke or lack of choke is from the primer. I have it on good authority, all components being equal, you'll lose about 7 fps for every inch of barrel under 30 inches. Really not that important when looking at 19" vs 30 inch barrel. I mean c'mon, ~77 fps less doesn't make my 1414fps load any less lethal. I only caution that a light load for the pump gun may not cycle the semi-auto. I made about 50 of those lil buggers before I went to the range; what a kill joy that the Saiga became a bolt action shottie.

 

Sawed offs gave a noticeably bigger spread in the old days for 2 main reasons.

1) most barrels came with a full choke. Cutting the barrel off before the choke started left a cylinder bore.

2) Old shot shells didn't have shot cups, so barrel geometry was the only thing controlling pattern.

 

Velocity differences are a null point with modern powders in all production ammunition. OK, you did qualify here with "production ammunition."

If you want tight groups, the single biggest thing you can do is buy the pricey Federal Flight Control ammo. (which is developed to run out of military and LE guns. Pretty much all of those are cylinder bore, and a large number of cop shops use 12" 870s as their issue gun. This ammo is made to optimize SBS shotguns.) " Federal Flight Control pattern super tight. All pellets were inside my palm at 50 feet. I just wish they were not so pricey and that the wads were available for bulk order.

 

Yeppers, wads can make a huge and little at all difference. I had tried CLAYS and WSF powders in Fiochhi hulls with WAA12 wads. The ballisitc numbers were all over the place. At $5 per shell that was an expensive lesson. I recovered the buck from other shells and some powder was mixed in with the buck shot. I know I didn't make them that way! Ha! So powder migration does exist, it isn't folk lore. That's when a I learned to use federal wads in straight hulls and WAA12 breeds in the tapered hulls.

Edited May 1, 2012 by msrdiver

[msrdiver 42]

How do I copy and paste other loads from Excel? Currently the alignment goes wonky.

Edited May 1, 2012 by msrdiver

[msrdiver 42]

Here are some other loads for you all. FYI Use at own risk(s). The numbers are three shot averages.

 

I was curious about Longshot and primers with a heavy 568 grain buckshot load. Fun hobbies are not cheap, ya know.

 

Hull: Federal Gold Medal Hull (2 3/4 inch)

Wad: Fed 12S4

Powder: Longshot 29.7 grains

Lead: 16 pellets of 1 buck Remington Field Grade (568 grains) 4 rows of 4 pellets each row.

Primer / fps / psi

F209A / 1452 / 11133

R209P / 1410 / 8900

Win209 / 1409 / 9066

Fio616 / 1344 / 8933

 

 

I'll stay away from the Federal primers for this load. I just know I'll leave shells in the trunk this summer and then the PSI will exceed 11,500. Just too close to the upper safety limit for my personal comfort. Gun would probably be just fine but then it is my personal comfort level.

Edited May 1, 2012 by msrdiver

[psl sniper 963]

PUSCA:

 

Good to hear the crimps are finally working. Check on them in a few days to make certain they keep. I tried, in vain, to get the Fiochhi blue huils to keep a crimp but they always lose the crimp in about a week. They are pretty much useless which is sad since I worked up great 9 pellet (1 buck) load using CLAYS of all powders! Pull the trigger and "pop" with little recoil.

 

 

.

 

 

checked the shells today. crimps are still holding strong. im going to go try them out this weekend. im hoping they pattern a little tighter than the ones i stacked without the petals.

[msrdiver 42]

It would be interesting to know if the wad with petals helps with grouping. The slits on the WAA12 wads are rather long so I suspect they'll open up rather quickly. Again, I'd really like to buy the wad used in the Federal Flight Control buckshot rounds.