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SgtRaven

Izhmash update and flat-top AK

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I just posted an update of Izhmash recovery and few pictures from the factory (link below) on another forum, but wanted to share this factory picture of flat-top AK (AK-12)..

Who is up for a challenge (dog-legs and "duct-taped" Picatinny don't count!)?

 

http://forum.saiga-1...cy/#entry758954

 

Original story (in Russian), named "Kalashnikov remains in the Army":

http://www.mk.ru/pol...ya-v-armii.html

 

 

495_65784.jpg

 

"PR" picture of AK-12:

 

461px-%D0%90%D0%9A-12_2.jpg

 

Top cover latch release lever is located at the rear of receiver, right side, behind the safety. Safety / fire selector unit is also revised, to provide more ergonomic ambidextrous switch with 4 positions (Safe, Semi-auto, 3-rd bursts, Automatic).

Source: http://world.guns.ru...ov-ak-12-e.html

 

 

post-28515-0-17723900-1335169543_thumb.jpg

 

AK-12full.jpg

Edited by Sgt. Raven

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looks like shit IMHO, and this coming from as guy who loves aks

Edited by ZombieJefferson
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I would imagine this is still largely a prototype. Just because Izhmash makes it, doesn't mean the army will accept it. The numbers of AK-74s in inventory is staggering.

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It may not be pretty, but every thing on there is an improvement.

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Russian Defense Industry was always ultra-conservative, bureacratic, authoritarian, bloated and stagmatic.

Most of surviving sector inherited the qualities above with very little alterations.

There is very little competition; therefore, independent geniuses have virtually no chance for break-through, unless they're employed by the "complex" and know "someone up high".

Big chunk of "progress" comes in the form of reverse-engineering or retrofitting of existing tewchnologies.

 

Look at AN-94, which was praised as "newest and greatest":

nikon2.gif

Imagine CQB or urban patrol with this "thing"?

 

I hope for AK's brighter future, but don't see it shining much under current ruling of idiot Minister of Defense (Serdyukov) and other Putin's "chronies" in charge.

 

---

Check Izhmash English-version site:

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/

Edited by Sgt. Raven

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...I wish Kalashnikov and Stoner got married and had a baby.

 

Blend of AR ergonomics and functionality with AK reliability and simplicity.

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Dude don't piss on the AN-94, that thing is innovative, 2 shot burst at 1800 RPM, that's sexy as hell. ugly though

 

and the scope is removable and it has a folding stock, clearing rooms would be the same as a 16' AK

Edited by ZombieJefferson

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No pissing contest here.

It is innovative and (spec-wise) is a step up from AK-74M and -1XX series, but where is it, besides of the listing on Izhmash site?

 

IMO, it lacks adaptivity.

What Izhmash and Russians need is an injection of American ingenuity, innovation and competition.

 

Would be nice to see it here, so we could tweak it up like we do with Saigas.

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...I wish Kalashnikov and Stoner got married and had a baby.

 

Blend of AR ergonomics and functionality with AK reliability and simplicity.

 

I know it's been said before, but the SIG 55x series is exactly this.

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...I wish Kalashnikov and Stoner got married and had a baby.

 

Blend of AR ergonomics and functionality with AK reliability and simplicity.

 

I know it's been said before, but the SIG 55x series is exactly this.

 

I was reading about, but didn't have a chance to put a hands on it yet.

Have anyone?

It's interesting that SIG elected AK-style "rock'n'lock" magazine design on 556R (Hunter), chambered in 7.62x39.

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The original SIG 55x series uses a rock-in magazine. The only version that had a drop-free AR magwell was the US market version, and it has been widely hated by customers, many of whom really wanted a semi-auto 55x. Instead what we got was basically an AR clone built on the 55x platform. Only in the last year or so did SIG finally make a "Swiss" lower receiver available to SIG 556 customers so that they could convert their rifles back to Swiss spec and use 55x magazines.

 

SIG also finally came to their senses and listened to the customer, and started offering the 551-A1 this year, which is basically a civilian Swiss-spec 551.

 

hFAfs.jpg

 

What blows my mind about the 55x series is how many people fall all over them as the world's most accurate, reliable military rifles, while they simultaneously trash-talk the AK as an inaccurate piece of junk. Admittedly the SIG 55x series is an incredibly refined variation of the AK design, and is an awesome platform, but... They operate on almost the same exact mechanical principals, are built with many of the same manufacturing processes, and generally can perform at the same levels when comparing similar calibers.

 

Look familiar?

 

hsm6C.jpg

Edited by mancat
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I like some of the features like the ambidexrous ergonomic safety and top rail. I also like the aperture sight mounted on the end of the receiver. I would like to see if they did away with the side rail on the other side.

Edited by uzitiger

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'mancat', on 25 Apr 2012 - 11:27, said:

 

What blows my mind about the 55x series is how many people fall all over them as the world's most accurate, reliable military rifles, while they simultaneously trash-talk the AK as an inaccurate piece of junk. Admittedly the SIG 55x series is an incredibly refined variation of the AK design, and is an awesome platform, but... They operate on almost the same exact mechanical principals, are built with many of the same manufacturing processes, and generally can perform at the same levels when comparing similar calibers.

 

There is a lot to like about SIG's 55X series, which (IMO) is an ...up-scaled AK clone.

 

However, after I learned about their "Gen 1" mishaps and multiple failures, I went back to "good ol' proven" AK platform (in the form of another converted Saiga), and never looked back.

Grass is green enough in my AO...

Edited by Sgt. Raven

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As long as they are doing a major update, why not also change the color? A neutral color would be better. A brown, tan, green, or gray rifle is more practical. Just pick one of these colors to be the new standard.

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krebs rear rail and krebs front handguard apparently are built to the same height so for $550 you could make a flot top ak or the tws unobtanium front handguard with their dustcover



it sucks that they had so many problems with their gen 1 it really put a damper on that whole platform

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+1 I like the AR mags.

 

However, the real thing that kills it all is 922r. I really like the G36, or guns like the 55x series, but they have to be gimped for import and you buy the overpriced import half over again with compliance parts. Just to use proper mags in a g36 whether you want the g36 mags or AR mags takes a ~$175 magwell and a bunch of compliance parts, and you are still stuck with a non folding stock. (half the appeal to me of that gun is how nice the whole package feels and the proper furniture is about impossible to get here.) Tavors look to be the first real decent modern foreign game changer to get a proper gun for sale over here, and that is only because they were making a lot of the parts here already.

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+1 I like the AR mags.

 

However, the real thing that kills it all is 922r. I really like the G36, or guns like the 55x series, but they have to be gimped for import and you buy the overpriced import half over again with compliance parts. Just to use proper mags in a g36 whether you want the g36 mags or AR mags takes a ~$175 magwell and a bunch of compliance parts, and you are still stuck with a non folding stock. (half the appeal to me of that gun is how nice the whole package feels and the proper furniture is about impossible to get here.) Tavors look to be the first real decent modern foreign game changer to get a proper gun for sale over here, and that is only because they were making a lot of the parts here already.

 

+1 for the Tavor!

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However, the real thing that kills it all is 922r.

I think there is enough demand in the U.S. to justify building them inside the U.S. with U.S. parts in a semiauto configuration. Could be license built or start up local production by a subsidiary. Actually, there are a number of U.S. firearms companies up for sale right now as well.

Edited by Sohei

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I would venture, to say my humble opinion ...


Automatic rifle Nikonov - never become a serial weapon.
His fate is sad. He became a hostage of "perestroika".

Kalashnikov (reliability and reputation) is the result of hard work of Russian weapons constructors, made of a rather bad prototype young Kalashnikov - failsafe weapon.

 

Mr. Nikonov is the great Russian scientist-taught on the importance of not conceding to "grandfather" as a name is Mikhail Kalashnikov in Izhmash factory. Unfortunately the fate of this child - sad.

I doubt that any one of you shoot in this weapon, or better yet, make it clean. Take my word. Shooting from a pleasant, but the design is very complex. After cleaning and disassembling an AK-74 or M-16, it is not a simple task.

 

"Abakan" imperfect weapons, so was Ak win the contest in the 45th year, but if it has been put so much work of designers, how much was invested in the Kalashnikov, it would be a new step in the Russian / Soviet weapons.


As for the AK-12 and it is an attempt to marry the AK-47 AR-15., And from my point of view this is a big mistake Izhmash.

"Abakan" in the civilian version will never happen, it is response to my inquiry in a management Izhmash.

After the death of Nikonov all work on his project collapsed.

Edited by vinni83

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Personally i like the idea. The original AK47 platform is still my favorite but it would be cool to see a "modren" AK. the AN94 is cool but not for civies. The most interesting modren rifle IMO is the Sig 556R, I plan on getting one when things settle down.

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Personally i like the idea. The original AK47 platform is still my favorite but it would be cool to see a "modren" AK. the AN94 is cool but not for civies. The most interesting modren rifle IMO is the Sig 556R, I plan on getting one when things settle down.

 

Then you will have to change your avatar, to (logically) place SIG556R in the middle of existing tools of the trade.

Edited by Sgt. Raven

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Im going to have to change it anyway, i recently traded the AR for a stock S12 2012 production, bought a new dimpled S762 and did a much nicer conversion on it and sold the one in the pic! The 556R is a nice blend of AK & AR yet it's neither. It is it's own beast.

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I understand why the AN-94 would be unappealing for the civilian market and of limited interest in the military market. But, what about the other design it was tested against? The AEK-971 could be of some interest in the civilian market. I would like to see a Saiga-12 with the counterbalanced action from the AEK-971 tested. I am curious to find out if the recoil impulse could be tamed for rapid semiautomatic shots in 12 gauge. It might be of use in powerful rifle calibers as well. While the AN-94 was found to be superior for those two round bursts, the AEK-971 performed well in sustained fire. The great advantage of the the AEK-971 is its simplicity, adding only a simple mechanism to the standard AK design. This keeps the cost lower than the AN-94 and keeps maintenance easy. In the civilian market there is no demand for burst fire weapons but a powerful shotgun or rifle that can be controlled easier in rapid fire likely would be received well. So, the AEK-971 appears to be the more plausible basis for a civilian design.

Edited by Sohei
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So, the AEK-971 appears to be the more plausible basis for a civilian design.

 

Which is probably why Izhmash now is releasing a Saiga 107 with the balanced recoil system. Very similar system to the AEK971.

 

saiga_mk_107-660x216.jpg

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/03/06/saiga-mk-107-the-civilian-ak-107-with-balanced-recoil-arrives/

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So, the AEK-971 appears to be the more plausible basis for a civilian design.

 

Which is probably why Izhmash now is releasing a Saiga 107 with the balanced recoil system. Very similar system to the AEK971.

 

Nice! Added it to my wish list. I knew they were still working on various related designs but had not heard the news that they had a real product ready to sell to civilians. Thank you for the heads up.

 

Well, not quite ready to sell in the U.S. but perhaps soon.

Edited by Sohei

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I'm not very happy with the reliability of my Saiga 12 KS-K.
What will be the reliability of the Saiga 12-balanced automatics, I'm afraid to even comment.

 

huh.png

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Make that in .223, and have it use AR mags. Damn things would jump off the shelves if they are under 1,400.

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