Ever put your guns through the ringer?

[theorangeplanet 968]

Proverbially, of course. A few weeks ago during a afternoon of shooting with a buddy of mine I decided to test out my Beretta PX4 in a unscientific test of reliability. With a magazine inserted, round chambered (safety engaged), I dropped the pistol into the dirt. Pretty fine stuff, very sandy... it was what was on the dirt road leading to out boonies-range. I kicked some dirt onto it, not burying it but getting a decent amount. Then I gave the gun one very swift nudge, not a kick but more like a swoop, down the road. Picked it up, shook it off a little, and did a quick inspection. Let me say that I didn't feel this was an extreme test, and what one might expect if you were to drop your pistol from a moving vehicle, or lose retention in a struggle, etc. I felt confident that the PX4 would handle it with flying colors as it had always been reliable with me, before.

 

I proceeded with a string of shots. Pulling the trigger, I could feel the grit of the dirt and sand that had gotten into the mechanisms. The first shot fired and cycled with no malfunctions. The second shot did the same. However, my third shot gave me a failure to extract with a stove pipe. I cleared it, and again with the next shot, stove pipe. I cleared it again, proceeded to fire and got a failure to extract with an empty casing remaining chambered. This last failure was mainly the overall function as I fired several more shots experiencing a variety of success and failure. The gun would not function reliably.

 

I field stripped the pistol and immediately saw an extreme failure in design with the PX4 in terms of this kind of test. The rotating locking system creates a significant gap between the barrel and slide at the ejection port when in locked battery. This gap allowed the finer dirt and sand to enter directly into the block that holds the cam and slot that rotates the barrel during recoil. The combination of dirt adding friction to the rotating mechanism with the dirt further adding friction the the frame rails was too much for the gun's action to handle and properly cycle during recoil.

 

I considered this pistol to be my rough gun. The kind that just works, whenever, as the PX4s are marketed as such by Beretta. I would have gone on assuming that if I never put it through some sort of trial, myself. Now I'm looking at picking up something like a Glock 34 as my heavy duty pistol and delegating the PX4 to lighter duty. Anyone else had any similar experiences? I'd like to know what sorts of things you guys have maybe done with your rifles and gained insight as to just how reliable they actually are.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I once threw a primed shell (no powder or bullet) in a beat-to-shit Glock 19, donned a pair of safety glasses and spent half an hour or an hour chucking it at walls, boxes, the floor, throwing it up in the air, etc. I did that to test the famed safety system. Not so much as a tiny dent in the primer.

 

I also left a WASR-10 outdoors in a secure location over winter. One good solid smack with a rubber mallet got the action unstuck, and that beast ran like a top. Ended up trading that rifle at a show to a guy who loved the "battlefield pick-up look." After I'd scrubbed the surface rust off, it had an interesting patina. I've also done the traditional throw-sand-into-the-action reliability test on several AKs, without issue, with one exception - wet, clumpy sand that was almost like clay, when it was about 50 degrees out. That jammed up a WASR, and it had to be field stripped and the big chunks scooped out before it would cycle.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Glock is one of the few that can handle what you did to the PX4.

[armalite_ar50 86]

I like " 'ole dirty " the guy with the FAL that has 15 K through it with a broke gas spring and one malfuntion. ( stuck case)

 

My S12 has 452 rounds through it is bone stock eats everything and has yet to be field stripped, from the 1st time I polished it and got it running.

 

It's going to go until it stops and that's about the extent of my torture testing on it.

 

I didn't clean a G17 for 10 years 2001 to 2011 just to see. I finally had to as it wouldn't lock into battery anymore. (( to much carbon build up. It was used in threegun and other matches along with monthly shooting during this time and I only shoot lead reloads.

 

Pretty darn reliable if you ask me. We'll see how long the S12 goes.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Look up Pat Rogers' Filthy 14. Over 31,000 rounds without a cleaning. Just generously lubed and still shooting. I went through one Carbine course while Active Duty where eight of us went through around 28K rounds in five days without cleaning, just lubing. And the haters say an AR is unreliable.

[joebanda1213 59]

I really want to do what fpsrussia did to the aa12s to my saiga 12. Submerge in trash can of water pull out and go to town.

[XdamagedX 248]

I attended a "tactical shoot" competition/range day a lcal club was holding, and seemed to be the only one to leave my rifle (WASR) on the table when it started pouring rain. When they called my name to shoot, I picked it up, chambered a round and it obviously worked flawlessly. I've used my Springfield fullsize lightweight 1911 in the same conditions multiple times (mostly super rainy).

Also the first day I got my s-12, I had fired 1-2 mags through it, and as I was loading the third, I dropped the handful of shells I was loading. I bent down to grab them and also grabbed the biggest fist of grass/dirt that I could-and rammed it all into the mag as well.... and again: that also ran flawlessly, but with a strange burning smell from the grass burning as it was being ejected.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Look up Pat Rogers' Filthy 14. Over 31,000 rounds without a cleaning. Just generously lubed and still shooting. I went through one Carbine course while Active Duty where eight of us went through around 28K rounds in five days without cleaning, just lubing. And the haters say an AR is unreliable.

 

Regular maintenance on anything will make it last longer, to bad that is becoming a lost art...........

[storm6490 2,768]

Look up Pat Rogers' Filthy 14. Over 31,000 rounds without a cleaning. Just generously lubed and still shooting. I went through one Carbine course while Active Duty where eight of us went through around 28K rounds in five days without cleaning, just lubing. And the haters say an AR is unreliable.

 

14 was a high end custom rifle for pipe hitters. Nothing like the shit they issued me at Ft. Benning. Not only was it custom made with looser tolerances for desert moon sand, it was literally bathed in drums of special lubricant during the promotional test.

 

My first AR was given to me when I was 16. It was a colt competition target match. The second was issued to me, an M16A2 made by FN. Personally, I have found all owned and issued ar platform rifles in my life to be less dependable than my ak platform rifles. I also HATE the 5.56 nato round. It does not hit hard enough and allows targets to keep moving.

 

To each is own and I respectfully agree to disagree. The AR is grossly underpowered and too dainty for GI use and abuse.

 

You are fortunate if you had a better experience than I have with the platform.

Edited April 23, 2012 by storm6490

[theorangeplanet 968]

Carbon buildup is one thing, I'd venture to guess that a quarter of Americans don't clean their guns out of either principle or ignorance, but I'm more interested in hearing about some really dirty stories. Caked in mud, filled with sand, eating twigs and berries in the field.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Carbon buildup is one thing, I'd venture to guess that a quarter of Americans don't clean their guns out of either principle or ignorance, but I'm more interested in hearing about some really dirty stories. Caked in mud, filled with sand, eating twigs and berries in the field.

I'll do one for you with a Saiga 12. Might be a while though.

 

ETA: A video. It won't be any of this BS shoveling a little sand on it with the safety on.

Edited April 24, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[magsite20 1,664]

Without a plan to do so I seem to do it a lot, most seem to hold up to the wear and tear better than I do. At some point I get around to a cleaning and lubing of them usually before there is a stoppage. Most are pretty good weapons with a good design and history so I have some reason to believe they’ll hold up to some neglect.

 

From my standpoint guns beat cars in the take a licking and keep on ticking category.

[nlacy 692]

Look up Pat Rogers' Filthy 14. Over 31,000 rounds without a cleaning. Just generously lubed and still shooting. I went through one Carbine course while Active Duty where eight of us went through around 28K rounds in five days without cleaning, just lubing. And the haters say an AR is unreliable.

 

I just did an AR course on Saturday where many of the drills involved laying the rifle in the sand, running up to it, picking it up and firing. After everything I'd heard about the AR I was worried, because I could see sand getting in it everywhere. But it worked fine, no problems.

[RobRez 1,895]

I have seen the youtube video of a fella shooting after putting a Twinkie in the action! The AK did nicely.

Twinkies, hard to beat that one. The strange things people do.

[gunboy69 50]

The owner of my company brought in a Glock 17 that he said someone gave him. It looked like he got it out of Davy Jones' locker. I had to hammer the slide open with a mallet.

It was caked with rust,but I sprayed with kroil and wrapped it in a rag until the weekend. We took it out with no cleaning and I shot better groups with it than my XDM.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Look up Pat Rogers' Filthy 14. Over 31,000 rounds without a cleaning. Just generously lubed and still shooting. I went through one Carbine course while Active Duty where eight of us went through around 28K rounds in five days without cleaning, just lubing. And the haters say an AR is unreliable.

 

As you just said, an AR is unreliable unless regularly and generously lubed. If you don't take the time to do it and have some at least semi-appropriate oil to use, you're screwed. AKs run bone dry without a hitch.

[corbin 621]

I'd say the only REAL ringer I've done with a firearm was back in the late 80s with my Glock 17. I was at an Academy where we had 5 or 6 days or pistol training, and we weren't allowed to clean them. Then we had to qualify on the last day with a dirty pistol. We were shooting copper washed lead reloads too. Pretty dirty stuff. Not sure on the total shot count over that week, but it was in the thousands. Maybe 7 or 8 thousand all together?

 

On day 5, I was riding a quad runner and it fell out of my holster (leather pancake w/o thumb strap). It scuffed it up (I was maybe going 30MPH, on gravel). No issues though, other than I had to go back and pick it up. Except for a few dead primers, I never had a FTF or FTE. My hands looked like I rubbed graphite on them, from the carbon...... but the Glock never hiccupped once.

 

The only other thing that comes close to that was around 650 rounds of bulk Federal through my Saiga 12 one afternoon. There was no dropping it or anything there however. Just a dirty gun. Had a few FTEs, with 12 rd SGM mags fired rapidly from the hip. Not a single issue when fired from the shoulder. This was after break in and polishing.

[preparehandbook 326]

I have seen the youtube video of a fella shooting after putting a Twinkie in the action! The AK did nicely.

Twinkies, hard to beat that one. The strange things people do.

 

That twinkie was screwed though.

 

No matter how well you wipe it off they still taste like hoppes #9 and cosmoline.

[G O B 3,516]

Only thing I have 'run thru the wringer' is the old Marlin 60. After too many bricks of ammo to remember, it finally gave up the gohst. The ejector block crumbled! If a replacement piece of pot metal was available, it would still run fine!

[preparehandbook 326]

I've worked in gunsmithing, and even dabbled in some R&D, so I've gotten to break some guns before. nothing interesting or novel though.

 

One thing I've found, it's damned hard to make a .22 burst it's barrel.

[MT Predator 2,294]

http://theprepared.com/content/view/90//administrator/

[preparehandbook 326]

These guys are off the hook!

 

Bolts hammer into barrels, .50 BMG from a 12 gauge, 454 casull in a .410....