15 replies to this topic

[stevem]

I don't know much about them.It seems like a very close match.I've been thinking about getting a Romanian PSL, or SSG 97, or Romak III, whatever you want to call them.They make them in 308 and 7.62x54R.The 308 is more expensive.Which do you think is better??

[chips]

i've found that there is a wider variety of .308, and its easier to obtain, but i love shooting 7.62x54. i think the 7.62x54 is my favorite round of all. the only problem is, i have to go to gun shows to buy it since the only store in my area that carries it wants $35 for a box of 20 rounds

[KySoldier]

He's right, I've got 308 rifles, my friend just got a Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R, we like the rifle, but can't find the ammo for it. I would suggest getting what you like and then worry about the ammo, the Russian round can be found cheap in large quantities online...but don't expect to find it at a local gunshop or Wal-Mart.

http://www.ammoman.c...ore_762x54R.htm

[Verson]

true,

here are some places with decent 7.62 prices mil. surp. ammo and other brands.

http://www.ammunitio...e.com/index.htm
440 rds for $37 and 800 rds for $60 you have to be 21 here to order.

http://www.sportsman...browse.asp?c=96
same ammo, a little more expensive but they sell if your under 21



good luck, I'm sure you will have fun with either cal. let us know what you do go with.

[aka108]

Pickup or borrow a copy of Shotgun News. Plenty of places listed to order 7.62x54R. It is inexpensive and is still low cost to shoot even with shipping charges added.

[KySoldier]

That brings up another good point Verson...That cheap Czech ammo is corrosive...so be careful.

[bulletstopper]

I just bought 780 Rounds of Czech Silver Tip 7.62x54 from SOG. It is non corrosive and some of the best cleanest shooting 54 russian ammo I have ever seen. I suggest you all get some before its gone. Some of it is corrosive other mildly corrosive. The kind I bought said non corrosive and was 98 dollars after shipping. I know its non corrosive cause my rifles are still in one piece and not all corroded up. It comes in this cool green wooden box and sealed up ina tin can. If you work it out its less than 3 dollars a box and thats alot of shooting for the money. As far as comparing the .308 with the 7.62x54 I think you would better be served by comparing it to the 30-06. The 308 is kind of in a league of its own. It won't have the same muzzle energy as the x54 but it is more accurate and that Mosin Nagant rifle kicks like a mule. However I like the x54 caliber better due to the greater energy and It just fun shooting the Nagant rifles. The recoil isnt unpleasant and drives home the point that you are holding a real weapon in your hands. Not some wussy AR-15 but a real knock its ass off kind of weapon. Give SOG a call. There isnt any reason you shouldnt be able to get some good ammo for a good price and be able to shoot that gun and enjoy it. No sense in cringing every time you shoot it cause the ammos too much money.

[chips]

i agree, i love my nagant. its well built, it feels solid, all wood and metal, no plastic, steel buttplate, and a nifty foldable bayonet. the very first round i fired out of this gun hit the bullseye at 100 yards. of course that was pure luck

[Job_of_Uz]

I am active duty military now, and have some experience with both the 7.62x54 and 7.62x 51 cartridges...

I first want to say that I enjoy both of these fine rounds, but for the purpose of comparison, I will have to be critical to compare them.

7.62x54 Russian history- Very brief

The "54 Russian" was developed in Mother Russia in the year 1891, which was just in time for The Russian revolution.
Industries built the Nagant bolt action rifles by the millions for virtually no cost at all per unit.
The russian revolution ended in 1924, and the bolt action rifles began to sell to anyone who would pay anything for them. In short the russian people were hungry and the guns were a meal ticket if they could find a buyer. The Nagants popularity began to spread.
WW1 brought the nagants back out and some weapons development. But not much.
WW2 Brought about a need for "Automatic machine guns". The originally bolt action bullet, remained unchanged and the PK machine gun was born to shoot full-auto.
After WW2, the USSR fell apart and tens of millions of AK-47s and PKs and Nagant rifles of all sorts flooded the world market, selling for dirt cheap, as once again russian citizens were selling them to try to make a buck and buy food. (there are still millions of them all over the world selling for just a few 100 dollars or less.)

Vietnam and 1980s brought about the need for Squad Sniper weapons, the soviets adapted the Dragunov rifle and specialized ammo called 7N1 and 7N2 sniper ammo. This gun was classified secret and was virtually unknown to the west for a long time.
You can now buy a Dragunov and its copies, The Romak 3 and PSL for about 500 to 600 dollars. I have read many articles in Special weapons magazine, and others about test firing of the Dragunov and copies for comparison... They all state that it shoots fair to poor for a sniper rifle with regular 54 russian ammo. 2, 3 and 4 inch groups depending on the brand.
BUT! with the 7N1 sniper ammo, It has a whole new face! 1 inch groups are not too difficult at all! 7N2 ammo is just as good!

The Russian people, after the Russian revolution, stayed in a state of poverty which made research and development a luxury they could not afford. So the standard 7.62x54 remainded unchanged tinn the 7N1 ammo was developed in the early 60s. (Many felt that it worked great, why improve?)

Long story short, the 54 russian Had not changed at all since its development back in 1891. It still uses the same powder charge, the same "metal alloy" cases and bullets, and minus the development of 7N1 Sniper rounds, is still literally 1891 technology.

A good magaizine to get to learn about the versions of the Dragunov and it variants and the 7N1 ammo is the "Shotgun News 2nd Annual Treasury Issue" The magazine is not dated, but you can request a copy from Shotgun News and they will know what you are talking about. VERY indepth.

Attached Files

•  MC76254R.jpg   2.82KB   4 downloads

Edited by Job_of_Uz, 12 March 2004 - 11:36 PM.

[Job_of_Uz]

The History of the 308 (7.62x51 NATO) - Very Brief

The 30 Cal Bullet was designed and manufactured I think, in 1894, It was Just called the 30 Cal back then then in 1906, The very popular 30/06 springfield was adopted by the U.S. military and commissioned into use in 1906. The 30/06 springfield's official military name "Caliber.30, Model 1906, Mark 1".

The 30/06 Served us well in Springfield Armory M1903 bolt action, then in the M1 Garand Semi auto rifles.

I'd like to name all the Development steps and improvments to the 30 cal bullet, but it was almost continuous. Better waterproofing of the Cartridges and so many diffrent bullets - From the 55 grain Accellerator http://www.remington...ults.asp?cal=29
To the match grade precision target ammo used in long range target shoots to
Military ammo such as the Black tip Armor piercing and tracer rounds.
Continuous revelopment to make it more accurate and cleaner in your barrel to shoot.

After WW2, The United States Military (the DOD) Put up a contract that Winchester Ammo had undertaken, it was to make the 30/06 which is a long action bullet, into a Short action bullet that will cycle faster in heavy machine guns and "modernize" the already nearly 60 year old military cartridge.
The rules set forth was that the NEW 30/06 bullet had to use the same bullets(slugs) and needed to be the same velocity and hold the same flight path. but needed to be about a half inch shorter to fit into a newer short action machine gun.

The results were the creation of the 7.62x51 NATO or 308 cartridge. The US military then began development of the new 308 and kinda left the 30/06, from there on, to the civilian sector for hunting and sport use.

The 308 gradually evolved from the 180 and 200 grain slugs of the 30/06 to the 168 and 172 grain bullets for sniper rifles and all the way down to a 147 grain bullet for the M60 Machineguns.

The 308 and 30/06 are swtill very like bullets. This is even more evident if you reload them. They both can still accept the same slugs, But the 308 does use modernized cleaner burning and hotter powder to achieve the near 30/06 power and velocity.

Here are some ballistics to campare between the 308, and 7.62x54

147 grain FMJ made by Winchester
Distance (yds) Muzzle___50___100___200___300___400___500
Velocity (fps)___2800__2690__2582__2374__2176__1987__1812
Distance (yds) Muzzle___50___100___200___300___400___500
Energy (ft. lbs.)_2560__2363__2176__1840__1545__1289__1072



The 54 Russian is quite lower...
Winchester 7.62x54 Russain 180 gr. Metric Calibers Full Metal Jacket

Distance (yds) Muzzle___50
Velocity (fps)__2579___2480
Distance (yds) Muzzle___50
Energy (ft. lbs.)_2658__2493

There is less info on the ballistics of the 54 Russian, noone bothered to measure it out to 500 yards, but for basic comparison, you can see the diffrence in the velocity and energy. But for accuracy, The 308 is way more refined, thus much more accurate!

Attached Files

•  SHV3085.jpg   6.1KB   6 downloads

[stevem]

Wow, that was VERY informative!Thanks for all the great replies.I just got a couple of Mosin Nagants this week.A 1940 M91/30 & a 1945 M44.I got them from Cole's Distributing and had them ship me 100 rounds of ammo with them.It's new production, Yugoslavain 180 gr soft piont.It's snowing right now, but it's supposed to be nice this Sunday, so I'm hoping to try all the rifles I got over the winter season.Being that these rifles are so old and in mint condition, I wanted to stay away from corrosive mil surplus ammo.I think I payed $29 for 100 rounds of this Yugo stuff.I didn't shop around so I have no clue if it was a good deal or not.I'll let you know what it's like if I can shoot on Sunday.
So from what I read here, the 7.62x54R is cheaper, but the 308 is more accurate and can be found most anywhere ammo is sold.Being that I'm just a recreational shooter and not into competition, I think the 54R will suit me just fine.Besides, I'm kind of a cheap skate.
While I'm here asking questions in the Saiga 308 forum, I should probobly ask how you guys like your Saiga 308s.How accurate are they?I already have 2 Saigas, a 7.62x39 and a 12 ga.I love them both.I just wanted to get something that would reach out to 300- 400 yards and that's kind of a stretch for my Saiga 7.62x39 & my SKSs.Whats the longest barrel that you can get on the Saiga 308 and what kind of accuracy could one expect at 300 yards or more??I rent from people that have a 300 acre farm and there's enough room for me to make a shooting range that could be over 500 yards long.

[chips]

i think the longest barrell length available is 22". thats how long the barrell on my .308 is. as far as accuracy goes, i dont have a scope, so im not gunna be accurate at long ranges, but it seems to do well at 50 yards or closer with iron sights.

[stevem]

How does the Saiga 308 compare to the H&K 91,G3 or Cetme.I was considering picking up a G3 type rifle, but if the Saiga is as good as those types of rifles, I'd go with the Saiga.They're soo simple and reliable!Anybody here have both or shot both?

[the end of it all]

i've found that there is a wider variety of .308, and its easier to obtain, but i love shooting 7.62x54. i think the 7.62x54 is my favorite round of all. the only problem is, i have to go to gun shows to buy it since the only store in my area that carries it wants $35 for a box of 20 rounds

if there is a gander mountian around you might find 7.62x54r there or maybe a dunems

[Saigaczech]

I know ammoman sells it cheap surplus. I have some Olympic, Prvi Partisan and Wolf Gold too. My prize is a still sealed can of 7N1 ammo I bought a couple of years ago. Now with the ban coming I picked up another PSL to shoot it from.

[GunnyR]

It's ALIVE!!!!!

Guys, it's been 4 years since this post started it's run. I would say the 7.62x54R is more prevalent now?