report on your csspecs 308 mags

[jimdigriz 580]

I saw a thread on the SI forum today reviewing Saiga 308 mags. The report on the csspecs mags was far different than my experience:

The deficiencies of the first generation of these magazines are well documented: Heavier than necessary, sharp edge abound, crude finish both inside and out, rough feed lips, etc. Interesting as a first effort at a metal magazine that would function in the Saiga, but at $45 per mag, it is not “good to go.” The second generation mags apeared to be more promising. They very closely resemble a Galil .308 magazine and are finished in a durable black oxide. In my last sniping class I had one student who had bunch of these magazines and after looking them over I was very hopeful. That hope was misplaced. None of these magazines functioned correctly. NONE. Misfeeds, stuck magazine followers, poor spring tension, name it and he experienced it. Ammo was not the issue, he was using Prvi match grade. These magazines look great, but they are useless. Thankfully I had a half dozen factory Saiga magazines that I could loan him, otherwise he would have had three days of malfunction clearance hell. This is totally unacceptable in a magazine that retails for $50!

 

None of my csspecs mags have ever malfunctioned, either the older version or the new. But perhaps I am not running them hard enough or often enough. Lots of the new model have sold, so let's hear from the experience of others, about both the Saiga and VEPR models. What's the verdict: jam-o-matics, AK-steel mag quality, or something in between? How well do these run in your rifle?

[csspecs 1,987]

Odd that the student did not contact us for refund or replacement.. Most people who have spent $200+ on something that does not function at a class would be livid.

 

I've had a couple replacements due to the wobble issue but I've yet to hear of stuck followers, we do check the magazines after assembling for that since its always possible for a bur to snag something..

 

I am interested in the general opinion of our products.. Currently I'm of the opinion that the timing of their less than positive review is convenient in directing sales toward their vepr rifle line and their magazine for that rifle....

[TJohn 8]

When I first got my csspecs mags in, I thought, geez these are heavy (but really they are pretty comparable to surplus steel ak mags in weight anyways). I have three csspecs 10 rounders that have been flawless so far, no feeding issues whatsoever, they have functioned 100% . They fit tight in the magwell on my Saiga .308, but no so tight that they are difficult to insert. In other words, no fitting was required to make them work. The followers on mine seem to work just fine. I haven't ran them through a class, but they have had lots of rounds ran through them and haven't experienced any feed problems when stored loaded for extended periods either.

 

They do not click in when inserted like the stock mags do, but they do lock up just fine. I thought about possibly hitting the mag catch a little bit with file/dremel, but I dont want to mess up the way the stock mags fit and I need to try more csspecs mags to see if there is any variation on lockup between different mags or production runs. With the csspecs mag locking up fine, I didnt see the need to file any on them, although it is reassuring to hear the click when inserting a Saiga/AK mag.

 

The stock Saiga mags and csspecs mags are my preferred mags for the .308. I like them much better than SGM/Surefire mags, as I had to do some filing on my Surefire mags to get them to lock in.

 

If I had one complaint about csspec mags, it would be that I don't have enough of them.

Edited April 28, 2012 by TJohn

[HarvKY 72]

Odd that the student did not contact us for refund or replacement.. Most people who have spent $200+ on something that does not function at a class would be livid.

 

I've had a couple replacements due to the wobble issue but I've yet to hear of stuck followers, we do check the magazines after assembling for that since its always possible for a bur to snag something..

 

I am interested in the general opinion of our products.. Currently I'm of the opinion that the timing of their less than positive review is convenient in directing sales toward their vepr rifle line and their magazine for that rifle....

 

 

BINGO !

 

SI essentially gave up on the Saiga 308 platform some time ago, so there doesnt seem to be any real need or cause to do an evaluation study on 308 Saiga mags.at this time

Im not familiar with the SI "instructor" who posted the thread you mentioned, so I dont know his history of comments and/or any tendancies to issue evaluations, er, opinions on competing products - especially based on observing one student's gun & equipment during a group training class. Perhaps the class just occured very recently so he decided to share now?

 

I've seen official posts there acknowledging any possible occasional problem with a WT product and their desire to take care of the customers problem promptly & satisfactorily - because "all manufactured products will have an occasional problem"(my words).

I also have noticed a tendancy there to clearly label any competing product or business as junk, worthless crap, etc and the people involved or customers as idiots, booger-pickers, or sloths if they disagree with that opinion.

 

Considering the owner states he follows the business is war philosophy and desires to destroy any competitor - while using the Bible as his inspiration, nothing that appears on the site should surprise you. I enjoy the site for the particular ideas, info and topics that I choose to focus on. As one group's popular saying goes; "Take what you like and leave the rest"

 

Cheers,

Harv

 

 

I do have to laugh at the repeated crying about the mags weight and roughness. Posters who complain about other issues are almost always told they just need to get stronger and tougher

Edited April 28, 2012 by HarvKY

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I bought three of these mags and I also own one of the first metal mags he offered. I really like them and they are my go-to mags for this gun. When testing I had a problem with one of them not feeding. The other two worked perfectly. I put the mags through hell shooting several hundred rounds that day. I contacted Mike later that week to report the results of my testing. He quickly responded and sent a new mag out that day, no questions asked. He did not ask me to send the old mag or make any excuses. In two days the package was at my door. I am very happy with these mags and in my case the customer service was amazing. Bottom line is the guy makes great products that no one else makes, and stands behind his product 100%! If I did not have so many mags for this gun I would buy more and may end up grabbing a few in other capacities. If you own a S308 you should own one of these mags, IMHO.

[netpackrat 566]

I think it goes without saying, that you cannot read that other site without a well tuned bs detector. It's pretty clear by now that the owner has a special place in his heart for CSSpecs, beyond what can be explained by business considerations.

[jimdigriz 580]

I do have to laugh at the repeated crying about the mags weight and roughness.

 

It is a bit strange, considering that they weigh almost the exact same as the (approved) 7.62x39 steel mags. However, the sharp corners of the floorplate are the one obvious weakness of this magazine.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Jim Digriz

[bangbox 5]

I bought one a couple months ago and the only problem I had with it is that I had to file the catch on the front of the magazine so it would latch properly. It has never jammed or given me any trouble 150+ rnds later. very well built.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Mine dont have any sharp edges, it was real easy to fix with small rubber molding.

People will beech about anything.

[jimdigriz 580]

Mine dont have any sharp edges, it was real easy to fix with small rubber molding.

People will beech about anything.

 

Great for you. But my 5.45 and 7.62x39 mags didn't need goofy rubber bumpers.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Jim Digriz

[csspecs 1,987]

Your comparing products that where developed under massive government projects, with annual volume in the millions of units.. Rather than owner funded, and volume in the low thousands of units.

 

I do have an improved floor plate in the works, it will fit the existing magazines with some slight alterations to the bodies (the tracks get trimmed a little).. Should be a little more hand and pouch friendly. (we will be offering them free to past customers).. It will be a couple months before they are out.

[jimdigriz 580]

Your comparing products that where developed under massive government projects, with annual volume in the millions of units.. Rather than owner funded, and volume in the low thousands of units.

 

I do have an improved floor plate in the works, it will fit the existing magazines with some slight alterations to the bodies (the tracks get trimmed a little).. Should be a little more hand and pouch friendly. (we will be offering them free to past customers).. It will be a couple months before they are out.

 

Good deal.

 

I'm impressed with what you've accomplished, but didn't want to pretend the mags were perfect and couldn't be improved. Sounds like you're pretty close to fixing the last remaining issue.

[timy 1,185]

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the "SI forum"? I did google and came up with the self injury forum. I'm guessing that's not the right one.

 

As to csspecs mags, I only have one older ten round that has worked flawlessly. That and the factory eight is all I currently use. If the new style 15s come out I'll be buying at least two of them.

[csspecs 1,987]

warrior talk forum under the Ak sniper.

 

Me and the owner Gabe Suarez don't exactly like each other.. Honestly I can't find a point I could agree with him on with sole exception of liking AK pattern rifles.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

warrior talk forum under the Ak sniper.

 

Me and the owner Gabe Suarez don't exactly like each other.. Honestly I can't find a point I could agree with him on with sole exception of liking AK pattern rifles.

 

Gabe has an agenda he is pushing all the while making claims about the S308 that are neither born out by experience nor word of mouth.

 

Edit:

As for mag size of 20 being required to qualify I guess the M14 and its 15 rounders must be discounted.

Yeah right... fooking gun snobs.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Rhodes1968

[TJohn 8]

Your comparing products that where developed under massive government projects, with annual volume in the millions of units.. Rather than owner funded, and volume in the low thousands of units....

 

Well said! I for one am glad that you had the incentive and took the risk to provide an alternate source of mags for the Saiga .308, and have a continuing interest in improving them as possible. Options are always good to have.

[Gunfanatic 221]

If my memory serves me correctly, not too long ago there were some csspecs mags for sale in the one source tacticool store. They were also about $5 more than what it cost to buy directly from csspecs.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Gun Fanatic

[RobRez 1,895]

I have 4 of the 1st gen mags. I did need to file down some corners, as they were a bit sharp, but other than that one small issue I am 100% satisfied with them. No failures at all.

Maybe they could cook me breakfast and touch me tenderly in the Morning though.

[biskitz 24]

Your comparing products that where developed under massive government projects, with annual volume in the millions of units.. Rather than owner funded, and volume in the low thousands of units.

 

I do have an improved floor plate in the works, it will fit the existing magazines with some slight alterations to the bodies (the tracks get trimmed a little).. Should be a little more hand and pouch friendly. (we will be offering them free to past customers).. It will be a couple months before they are out.

 

That would be great, the sharp edges are the only major issue I see with the mags.

 

I had a follower get stuck cock-eyed once, and another mag started corroding at a seam in humid weather because i didn't get it oiled.

[csspecs 1,987]

Follower got stuck? Did you notice a reason why? internal bur ect.

[biskitz 24]

Follower got stuck? Did you notice a reason why? internal bur ect.

 

I tapped the side of the mag on my workbench and it popped back in position. Not sure what caused it.

 

This occured with the magazine one or two rounds from empty while unloading by hand.

 

No problems while firing.

[jimdigriz 580]

I do have an improved floor plate in the works, it will fit the existing magazines with some slight alterations to the bodies (the tracks get trimmed a little).. Should be a little more hand and pouch friendly. (we will be offering them free to past customers).. It will be a couple months before they are out.

 

Could you perhaps describe in more detail what the alteration will be, or provide a picture?

 

Thanks.

[csspecs 1,987]

 

The tracks on the bodies have to be slightly shortened, the floor plate has a galil/g3 style taper on front and back. Floor plate in the photo is just a regular one that was cut on an angle.

 

We are going to also change the spring guide/floor plate retainer to something more like a AK, that will add back the rigidity lost by removing the tracks.

[hellraiser 6]

I have four 1st gen ones. I love them. The weight has never been an issue for me. They have always functioned flawlessly.

 

My only wish is that I picked up at least 2 more 1st gens when they were available. I trust the seconds are just as good but would like to keep them all the same.

 

 

[FingerStyleFunk 6]

I'm a member of that same site, and I'll say here what I said there, here's my post from over there. I like the site for the most part, and have bought the videos from there. It mostly seems like good training, but some of the folks there could start following a bit of Gabe's own advice about hero worship and be a bit less sycophantic. He is ruthless on his home forum however. Any dissention is squashed. I just do what my dad said, "take the best and leave the rest", as far as information goes. Hell, most of it's free, can't complain there.

 

Be that as it may, once I decided to get one of his high end 308 vepr's, dude comes out with a notice that he's discontinuing the vepr program. Then he goes and opens up the modified m14 mag sale and states that he MAY make more if the sale goes well.

 

Coming out with a product and then discontinuing it immediately after production. I'll stick to my home built saiga's for now. At least I can get magazines for the damn things.

 

I have over 3k rounds through my saiga 308 on my gen2 css mags.

 

Here's my posted reply from that other forum bitching about the css mags;

"I have over 1000 rounds out of each of my Gen. 2 CSSpec's 308 mags without jam or misfeed. Not saying they are the best, or even the saiga 308 is the best. Gabe, I'm getting some of your VEPR's. My home converted Saiga's work for now and fill the gap, but now that something better is out, it's time to put on the big boy pants and step up. Cry once, buy once."

Edited May 17, 2012 by FingerStyleFunk

[csspecs 1,987]

Ha you know if ya'll keep harassing him like this, he is probably going to shoot me.. Then no one will have any mags.

[FingerStyleFunk 6]

Ha you know if ya'll keep harassing him like this, he is probably going to shoot me.. Then no one will have any mags.

 

Paraphrasing the guru, you're just a big belly bump fire booger picker, I wouldn't be worried. Thanks for making the magazines. Hell, I'm glad that SI exists, I just don't entertain all their dictators opinions.

Edited May 17, 2012 by FingerStyleFunk

[csspecs 1,987]

Well he was a Cop and I'm a inventor (well kinda). We work off entirely different concepts.

 

Back when we used to do business with them, we had issues with them not understanding the concept of lead times.. If today I decide that I want another batch of mags, its going to be 6-8 weeks before I'll have them in hand. Its not that production is slow, its that I depend on three outside suppliers to provide parts or services..

No amount of grumpy attitudes speeds things up, in fact I get the speed out of my suppliers because I'm their easy customer that does not call to annoy them.

 

I visit the WT forum and I see that the owner still does not seem to understand the process involved. Their discontinuation of their vepr line is likely due to 'delays' caused by a lack of understanding, that the lead times on new components can almost never be estimated.

 

 

Having a huge inventory is nice, but keeping it cleaned oiled and organized would take someone doing that full time. Which is why most of the smaller shops like myself try to maintain less than three month supply.

[netpackrat 566]

I'm a member of that same site, and I'll say here what I said there, here's my post from over there. I like the site for the most part, and have bought the videos from there. It mostly seems like good training, but some of the folks there could start following a bit of Gabe's own advice about hero worship and be a bit less sycophantic. He is ruthless on his home forum however. Any dissention is squashed. I just do what my dad said, "take the best and leave the rest", as far as information goes. Hell, most of it's free, can't complain there.

 

Jim Jones (or his staff) has deleted a bunch of my posts over the year or so that I've been a member there.

[Zambidis 90]

I take any gear review from Gabe Suarez with a bag of salt. First, it is well established that Gabe is willing to lie for money. He is very lucky his conviction for that was pled down from a felony and he can even own firearms still.

 

As someone that has been around AKs for years I have witnessed Gabes M.O. with respect to gear reviews and what is “good to go.”

As others have noted Gabe cannot simply give a dispassionate review based on something’s performance, attributes, and or shortcomings. Rather than stating why something is not a product he would use Gabe results to school yard insults about those that would use the product.

 

Beyond that however is the fact that Gabe’s determination of what is “good to go” changes more quickly than I can keep up with. An example of all of this is the Vltor stock adapter that allows one to use AR stocks. Five years ago Gabe had nothing but bad things to say about this product. I specifically remember a thread where H20Man (who is best known for trumpeting the modernized M1A on various gun forums) posted a picture of his AK and it was bashed by Suarez and his forum members. H20 man’s Ak had a Vltor stock adapter/stock an Ultimak and a T1 aimpoint, it also had a suppressor. It got serious hate on the suarez forum. This was when Gabe was in his AK purist phase. This was when his business was training people (after his back miraculously healed and allowed him to do his fancy spetznatz rolls) and before he was into selling parts and gun packages.

In fact Gabe expressly declared that the Vltor stock adapter was not something he would put on his rifle. He claimed it was not strong enough. He also stated that the collapsible stock didn’t offer anything he needed.

 

This old thread from Gabe’s forum is an amusing read these days. http://www.warriortalk.com/archive/i...p/t-14118.html

 

He is pretty much 180 degrees from where he was then. Nowadays he is pimping his own "Excalibur," for $1200+ or an even fancier $1900 one. It is about as far from as close to stock as possible as one can get. He is advertising it as "buil[t] . . . without any concessions to ComBloc fashions." It has the newest fanciest fore end out and has the very safety lever that he thinks is unneeded. It also seems that US palm mags (with their lack of steel in the feed lips) somehow blow all the other mags, that 6 years ago just couldn't fail, out of the water. I also regularly see him call tapco stuff "crapco" (to be fair their folder is, IDK why he was every saying it was fine). Oh, how a couple years and the potential to make money has changed that guy's tune. His efforts to add: a top rail, railed hand guard, modern flash hiders, magpul stocks, fancy refinishes, etc etc make me literally laugh when juxtaposed against his older (and very strongly worded) writings about AR-izing an AK. I get that better products come out and it only makes sense to switch to something truly better. However, Gabe has not only changed is whole approach he used to vehemently bash what he has become and now does the same with reference to what he was. I wonder what his next flavor of the week will be?

 

 

Gabe has finally come around on the fact that the AK has all kinds of short comings. Imagine that, we can do better on the individual end user level in 2012 than a 1947 design for mass production and distribution. As far as I can tell Gabe has always been a step behind what others are doing. Others were already running AKs like he is trying to pimp now six years ago. Back then he was deriding such guns and calling their owners names. For example in the April 2006 issue of Guns and Ammo there is an AK pictured that has the Vltor stock adapter, a gas block front sight combo (possibly a Krebs?), an Ultimak and is sporting an ACOG. A long time ago those who really knew AKs knew these were good modifications. Gabe’s MO is that he comes to the party late and then acts as if he was the one that discovered these ideas. He also then calls those who have the positions he just abandoned names. This was the case with all kinds of AK enhancements. It was the case with the S12 and many enhancements for it. This was the case with RDS on pistols. This was most definitely the case with the FAL. I’m not sure why I would care what this guy says for that reason alone. You would think that for someone who makes a career out of instructing about the AK it wouldn’t take over half decade to come around to what gear is effective. In reality, I think most of his declarations about gear are financially motivated. In fact, he has declared a number of things good to go only to turn around a short time later and say its crap. He has also done just the opposite trumpeted something as worthless and then decided it is the absolute best ever accessory one can add. His declarations are always definitive in nature. And of course, anyone who disagreed with him at any point was an idiot.

 

Beyond all of that is the fact that anyone paying attention at all can clearly see the strong correlation between Gabe’s labels of “good to go” and “crap” and who he is in bed with business wise. Obviously people are going to push certain products for business reasons, but with Gabe everything else is junk and those that use it are idiots or some other name. Furthermore, products can go from great to junk or vis-a-versa without explanation.

If Gabe’s actions with the US palm mags weren’t enough for someone to have serious doubt about his objectivity, I don’t know what would be. Look up his older comments about circle 10 mags, and even steel mags, (there are some in that link I posted) versus what he had to say when he jumped in bed with US palm on their mags. Try mentioning the lack of steel feed lips on his forum. Ironically he had the adacity to claim the lack of negative reviews of the Csspec mags were because moderators here wouldn’t allow it. That might be true of Gabe and his forum, but it is a laugh he projects it on everyone else.

 

In sum, Gabe saying bad things about the Csspec mags means nothing to me. The fact that he results to calling them CShit mags does. It means he doesn’t have real meaningful critiques to offer and so he calls names, like a child would do. Gabe also resulted to bashing this forum and the moderators when people suggested that the lack of negative reviews here might be inidicative of the quality of Cspec mags. The guy is a convicted crook, always a step behind in invovation, and a shill for certain product.