THE AK KID 0 Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) I am wondering if the Kushnapup would be NY legal? The AWB states "no pistol grip conspiciously beneath the action". There site says its pretty much grey area. To me it seems that the pg is beneath the barrel. I feel rule of thumb is if I like it its probably not legal. Anyone have any input? Any new yorkers run them? I am tempted to just do the thumbhole stock but feel thats just as grey. Thank's. Edited June 8, 2012 by THE AK KID Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Kid, laws haven't got anything to do with "feelings", "like", or "probably". They are strictly worded and defined. Here they are for NY: http://nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-york.aspx Since you asked about an S12..... “Assault weapon” is defined as: A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:a folding or telescoping stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; an ability to accept a detachable magazine. It is a semiauto shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. It DOES NOT have a folding or telescoping stock . It DOES NOT have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (The grip is under the barrel.) It DOES NOT have a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dustindu4 101 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) I'm not a gynecologist but I'll take a look. I would get a legal opinion from a gun lawyer, it's not exactly like a legal thumbhole stock. Maybe Kushnapup has something to say about it? Edited June 9, 2012 by dustindu4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE AK KID 0 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 The company doesnt know there there site says its a grey area in so many words. I have one but am selling it because I am unsure if it's legal on my 12. But I really want to keep it. Yeoldetool you logic was the same as I had when I ordered it but now am sissying out on useing it. I feel like the law is so loosely written and open to interperitation that they can lock me up for basically anything other than stock configuration. I am so frustrated and confused. If not the pup then I will probably do the thumbhole wich I also feel is a grey area at best. GRRRRRRR! What to do? Thanks for the replys guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Bullpups have been being sold here in NY for many years now. I've seen pretty much all of the commonly known bullpups in gun stores around here, such as the Steyr AUG clones, Kel-tec RFB and the Century AK bullpups, so I would have to assume that they are perfectly legal here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 The company doesnt know there there site says its a grey area in so many words. I have one but am selling it because I am unsure if it's legal on my 12. But I really want to keep it. Yeoldetool you logic was the same as I had when I ordered it but now am sissying out on useing it. I feel like the law is so loosely written and open to interperitation that they can lock me up for basically anything other than stock configuration. I am so frustrated and confused. If not the pup then I will probably do the thumbhole wich I also feel is a grey area at best. GRRRRRRR! What to do? Thanks for the replys guys. You could always contact SP Sgt. D'Allairde (?spelling) at COBIS in Albany for verification. The law reads how it reads, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE AK KID 0 Posted June 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yeoldetool I usually contact my local atf office but they rarely have straight answers for me. I hate to be the stupid guy but what is cobis? I will call monday if he might have an answer. Thanks. I see one of the moderators on here is from NY and did a how to thread and review on it but that dosent really mean its legal he could be leo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I must retract my statement do to CoBIS (Combined Ballistic Identification System) being permanently terminated as of April 1st, 2012. The Sgt. I named was in charge of that program in Albany. http://troopers.ny.gov/FAQs/Firearms/CoBIS/ That's great news for NYers, in and of itself! Actually makes me think I need a new pistol! Perhaps if you contacted them at the address on the website they can specifically answer your question. I've been there and talked to them personally and even got a tour of the forensics unit and the now defunct CoBIS, and believe it or not they're pretty cordial when talking to them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yeoldetool I usually contact my local atf office but they rarely have straight answers for me. I hate to be the stupid guy but what is cobis? I will call monday if he might have an answer. Thanks. I see one of the moderators on here is from NY and did a how to thread and review on it but that dosent really mean its legal he could be leo. nope. He isn't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Bullpups have been being sold here in NY for many years now. I've seen pretty much all of the commonly known bullpups in gun stores around here, such as the Steyr AUG clones, Kel-tec RFB and the Century AK bullpups, so I would have to assume that they are perfectly legal here. Everything else aside..... Your comparisons are different than the Kushnapup, since it would be housing a semi-auto shotgun. Different restrictions than semi-auto rifles. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 The rules aren't that much different between the shotgun and rifle here in NY. The rules regarding the stocks are the same. A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon a bayonet mount a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor a grenade launcher A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics a folding or telescoping stock a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds an ability to accept a detachable magazine Basically, if we can have bullpup rifles, we can have bullpup shotguns, regardless of whether or not it started out that way, as long as it meets the requirements of the NYS AWB. This info is from nyfirearms.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyPBasically 3 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) But is that a pistol grip attached to the bullpup technically? Just because it is forward of the action, does that mean its still not under? No cases to cite Edited June 10, 2012 by JoeyPBasically Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 The laws are what they are. If you want to view it in an extreme, literal sense, the grip is not directly below the action, it is forward of the action. Whether or not it is a pistol grip, it's always going to come down to however the prosecution wants to make it out to be and whether or not you can prove otherwise in court. I personally view it as a pistol grip, but not below the action. Keep in mind though that bullpup rifles are sold here in NY and the rules are the same regarding stocks on a rifle and a shotgun. If bullpup rifles are legal to sell and own here, bullpup shotguns are too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Key words .........."BENEATH THE ACTION" It is written in the law and not open for interpretation. Period. Either it's beneath the action or it isn't! Edited June 11, 2012 by Yeoldetool Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Keep in mind though that bullpup rifles are sold here in NY and the rules are the same regarding stocks on a rifle and a shotgun. If bullpup rifles are legal to sell and own here, bullpup shotguns are too. First, The "stock" has nothing to do with this discussion. It's about the grip. Second, the "rules" are LAWS and they are different for rifles and shotguns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) First, the stock is exactly what this discussion is about. He specifically asked if anyone runs them (the Kushnapup stock) which the grip is a part of since it is all one unit. If you don't believe me, go re-read the OP's questions. Second, yes, the rules are laws, please forgive my mis-speaking on that matter, but the laws are exactly the same regarding the stocks for a rifle and a shotgun, there is no misinterpreting that. And in regards to the laws as written are not open for interpretation, every judge interprets the law to the best of their ability, as they see fit to each case, and they do have a tendancy to interpret them differently from other judges from time to time. I suppose that is where an appeal could come in if one were so inclined. And I whole hartedly agree that the grip is beneath the barrel and not the action. Edited June 11, 2012 by pimpmastak76 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 As per their law, I only see it having one characteristic. I'd look up NY's definition of "action" though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE AK KID 0 Posted June 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) Bulgarian thumbhole Raa thumbhole Thanks for all the reply's. Didn't mean to make arguments but its ironic because it really is all about interpretation. It comes down to weather or not it would be considered a pistol grip and if so is the "action" below the barrel as well. In my research I have found that the action is considered beneath the reciever. But that is open to interpretation because technically the piston which is moving is above the barrel where the possible pg is located. Now if it would be considered a pg is another story. When the atf ruled on it they considered it a stock and trigger and from what I understand in most cases state rules based on atf but who really knows? I am scared to even put the bulgy thumbhole that many ny'ers here on the forum use. The only stock I have heard is the least grey is the raa thumbhole wich does not make sense to me. If that raa thumbhole is ok then why wouldn't the pg setup's that carolina has where they come with a rear block connected to a stock and pg that can be installed without modification the pg would clearly be behind the action. What makes people think the bulgy thumbhole is ok? it looks to me like a pg beneath the action? Edited June 12, 2012 by THE AK KID Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyPBasically 3 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Who's the person to call or email or write to get an answer on this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 I would suggest contacting a lawyer here in NY that knows firearms laws. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The rules aren't that much different between the shotgun and rifle here in NY. The rules regarding the stocks are the same. A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon a bayonet mount a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor a grenade launcher The rules - and here we mean LAW... is VERY DIFFERENT. ANY non-converted Saiga RIFLE in a kushnapup stock has ZERO additional features, if we go with the letter of the law, and that the grip is NOT below the action... but FORWARD of the action... And even if we DID consider it below the action, it only would have ONE additional feature, so it would be COMPLETELY LEGAL with a Saiga RIFLE! This also has NOTHING to do with the legality of it on a semiautomatic, detachable magazine - acceptable shotgun... in which many of us agree... the letter of the law makes it OK... but it could still be perceived as a bit of "Grey area".... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The simple sad fact is that with the sunset of the federal "assault weapon ban" the NY state level one is virtually un-enforcable, and similar to 922r as a add on charge. Originally we had a variety of laws come into effect that get mixed up with each other, largly due to the fact that the government entities that institutionalized them was basicly the same. The 94 AWB was passed, and after current at the time president Clinton passed some importation laws using executive powers. Largly the NYS AWB follows the federal level AWB, but it is organized somewhat different and has other weapons like knives involved. So basicly we have the federal AWB, importation restrictions on dragonov style stocks... AWB expired and executive importation laws gotten around by making single stack. Then there is 922r, another importation and manufacuring law, and the only document you will find with a ruling that a thumbhole stock even includes a pistol grip. a later ruling on 922r states that a thumbhole stock counts for 2 pieces for importation purposes including a pistol grip and a buttstock. then we have a state level AWB with its own clearly written definitions from a seperate individually acting government power, with its own rulings and authority that it is created under The only grey area is the spirit of the law as it was written by the federal government under one clinton, and passed on a state level under his wife. otherwise thumbhole stocks are perfectly legal, and I have yet to hear a good argument against that statement. How you wish to apply this to a bullpup is up to you. I don't believe the writers of the original even thought about it that well to consider the possibility. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 How you wish to apply this to a bullpup is up to you. I don't believe the writers of the original even thought about it that well to consider the possibility. Because at the time of its writing... in regards to a bullpup stock... NONE EXISTED for a semiautomatic 12 gauge. Unless it was a unique "one-off" someone made... Much like the Kpup is now.. a VERY niche market item!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) The rules aren't that much different between the shotgun and rifle here in NY. The rules regarding the stocks are the same. A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon a bayonet mount a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor a grenade launcher The rules - and here we mean LAW... is VERY DIFFERENT. ANY non-converted Saiga RIFLE in a kushnapup stock has ZERO additional features, if we go with the letter of the law, and that the grip is NOT below the action... but FORWARD of the action... And even if we DID consider it below the action, it only would have ONE additional feature, so it would be COMPLETELY LEGAL with a Saiga RIFLE! This also has NOTHING to do with the legality of it on a semiautomatic, detachable magazine - acceptable shotgun... in which many of us agree... the letter of the law makes it OK... but it could still be perceived as a bit of "Grey area".... Nope, rifle would not meet OAL requirements unless you added a butt-pad to the back and kept the tang... Edited June 13, 2012 by Caged Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) In regards to the rule/law mix up, as I previously stated in post 16, I mis-spoke, very sorry. In regards to what I was saying about the stock, I was going by what i have always read, which I suppose I might very well have mis-interpreted. Since you two (Indy and Nailbomb) seem to know a bit more about the NYS AWB (and I'm NOT trying to be sarcastic, I'd really like your opinions on this matter) , do you think it would be ok to own the Polish Beryl sidefolder stocks for my Saigas, but not have them attached until I am out of state, such as when I get to Vegas in September. I currently have the Bulgarian skeleton stock on them. My apologies if I am hijacking the thread. Edited June 13, 2012 by pimpmastak76 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Totally legal. You can own folders. Use can't install them on a post ban gun in ny without making them fixed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 How you wish to apply this to a bullpup is up to you. I don't believe the writers of the original even thought about it that well to consider the possibility. Because at the time of its writing... in regards to a bullpup stock... NONE EXISTED for a semiautomatic 12 gauge. Unless it was a unique "one-off" someone made... Much like the Kpup is now.. a VERY niche market item!!! technically not a stock, but there was a semi auto bullpup shotgun at the time Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pimpmastak76 21 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Thanks Indy. Russian Hammer, what in the wide, wide world of sports is that thing? Doesn't look like it would be much fun to shoot with that butt stock thing (curved metal bar) on there. Intersting forend set up though. Is that a flashlight on top? Edited June 13, 2012 by pimpmastak76 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Thanks Indy. Russian Hammer, what in the wide, wide world of sports is that thing? Doesn't look like it would be much fun to shoot with that butt stock thing (curved metal bar) on there. Intersting forend set up though. Is that a flashlight on top? that is a flashlight on top, and that thing is the good old high standard HS-10, i would give my left nut for one of those, if by that time i hadn't already given both nuts for a NS2000 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The rules aren't that much different between the shotgun and rifle here in NY. The rules regarding the stocks are the same. A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon a bayonet mount a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor a grenade launcher The rules - and here we mean LAW... is VERY DIFFERENT. ANY non-converted Saiga RIFLE in a kushnapup stock has ZERO additional features, if we go with the letter of the law, and that the grip is NOT below the action... but FORWARD of the action... And even if we DID consider it below the action, it only would have ONE additional feature, so it would be COMPLETELY LEGAL with a Saiga RIFLE! This also has NOTHING to do with the legality of it on a semiautomatic, detachable magazine - acceptable shotgun... in which many of us agree... the letter of the law makes it OK... but it could still be perceived as a bit of "Grey area".... Nope, rifle would not meet OAL requirements unless you added a butt-pad to the back and kept the tang... I suppose that would depend on YOUR specific rifle, then... and how you plan to do the install... With a 21" or a 22" barreled .223, 7.62X39, or .308, you would be JUST FINE no If's And's or But's! I also showed a VERY EASY mod in the write up section for you to KEEP THE TANG!! Add a spacer (the end of the old stock) for JUST that reason... to keep a 16" barreled rifle over the minimum legal requirement. It is FAR easier to add the spacer than it would be to cut off the tang. There are LOTS of options to keep it 100% EASY and PERFECTLY LEGAL with a rifle in NY!!! Its not hard to figure that out... In regards to a rifle build... why complicate things if you dont need to? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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